Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-ing!

[mephiztophelez]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

I think i might switch forums because this one is ****

imho: this is one of the top three D2 forums on the web. the others being the Barons Bazaar and the Amazon Basin.

take your guides to diablo2.com or d2jsp.org if you want un-critical acclaim for everything you do.

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

not "un-critical" just rational

 

[Arek]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

ARRRGH. not this travesty AGAIN.

first post, very friendly.

Your not getting this tripe stickied callsign, and Mephiztopheleze comment was very constructive.

first post, friendly and constructive ofc.

ARRRGH. not this travesty AGAIN.

I know how ya feel.

first post, friendly.

Don't feed the troll(s)

first post, friendly indeed.

The Troll(s) I was referencing was you and your supporter

a very friendly person.

will everyone please just let this thread DIE.

stop bumping it and feeding the trolls.

another friendly person.


To tell the truth, most of the replies to this guide were friendly and constructive. Some were sarcastic and some were rough, which i quoted. Until these "friendly" protagonists came, the discuss was running friendly and constructive. And now, their arrogance is so big, they are calling themselves friendly and advicing others to leave this most friendly forum. How ridiculous this situation is. Im with apollo. Not because i think this guide is good or optional, but because apollo might be stubborn but never rough or arrogant. Howgh

 

[Uncle_Mike]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

You do know this is the third version of this guide right?

The only responses to criticism we've so far received were: you are clueless, this forum is ****, you are trolls etc.

Yes, people got a little angry towards the end (I wish ) of this thread.

I'm not with apollo nor is the majority of people WITH A CLUE who posted here providing evidence why the build is far from optimal. Nice selection of quotes, perhaps you should check posts by the OP as well if you are so keen on finiding unfriendly and trolling content in this thread.

 

[Arek]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

You do know this is the third version of this guide right?

The only responses to criticism we've so far received were: you are clueless, this forum is ****, you are trolls etc.

Yes, people got a little angry towards the end (I wish ) of this thread.

I'm not with apollo nor is the majority of people WITH A CLUE who posted here providing evidence why the build is far from optimal. Nice selection of quotes, perhaps you should check posts by the OP as well if you are so keen on finiding unfriendly and trolling content in this thread.

what i quoted were first posts. very critique indeed. until then, nobody was flaming and people were discussing. apollos latest statements are a respond to these "friendly critiques". i do not say its right. and about the guide. no i dont know the guide was discussed before. the majority of us aint on this forum since 2003 or when this forum started. the old players came flaming, the discuss before was allright. why did they do that, i dont know. maybe they think they are smarter or they just need to present themselves somehow. wrong way. and ive red this thread, dont be worry. you should check the first pages and see who started flaming. its very clear. and all about those clues. who of you tested this guide you can tell its not optimal. i didnt so i cant tell. but i think it can be surprisingly good. and saying that my favourite character is sorceress.

 

[Jcakes1]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

I think the first post by mephiztophelez was very constructive.
As far as I can see CSA just ignores any criticism of the build and won't adress any of those comments, all he is interested in is getting praise for his build.

I have been here for only one revision and I have been giving constructive feedback that has been completely ignored ... image how you would feel if after three revisions none of the original feedback has been taken into account, I think I would probably say the same thing mephiztophelez said.

 

[RIP]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

....but i think it can be surprisingly good. and saying that my favourite character is sorceress.

I don't think so...And saying that, my favourite character for MFing is Barbarian :nod: This might be my personal opinion, but its based on countless MF runs with Barbarians, to tell You truth...They can be surprisingly effective, but not this way (again, my personal opinion)...

Anyway i blame myself for extending this useless discussion...Why useless?I need to repeat it again...CSA asked for criticism and he received it, so whats wrong?If he can't stand against fact that other players have different opinions, so why he is even trying to post this guide?He proved more then once that he is not interested by ideas/comments we had, so therefore its this disscusion useless...Thats the main reason for ''flame posts'' here, i think...

Now throw stones one me, if You want ))

 

[mephiztophelez]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

first post, very friendly.

kindly get your facts straight. this is the THIRD time this guide has been posted.

my first response, the first time around was actually fairly constructive. it's a pity i can't find the thread (seems to have vanished and can't find on search...).

indeed, many of us came to that first thread and offered helpful and constructive criticism and advice. advice that has been totally ignored.

i don't think one single thing that anyone has pointed out has actually made it into the guide. except he now acknowledges that it's "outrageously expensive".

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

I've always acknowledged that...

That's part of what makes the build interesting

 

[Jcakes1]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

but you haven't aknowledged that it costs 5 times as much as a budget mf sorc and it runs meph slower and finds less items over time.

Edit: not to mention if you are hellbent on using your merc to do the work you should play a necro as atleast this way you will have CE for an aoe effect.

The fact is that any mf character with a single target attack is going to fail at running areas (hence why we don't see mf conc barbs) and thus will NEVER be optimal for MF-ing.

 

[TheStone]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

But lets be rational.
I've read through all of this, and it's not a BAD build, there is however many; different, just as good, and most of all CHEAPER builds to do this with.
It's not an original build (as both fishymancers and gfbarbs do the same) but it's an efficient build for its purpose (killing meph/andy/pindle).
This build will never be worth doing on ladder, Never! But on nonladder, where u get highrunes for a set of frostburns, it's a viable build.
There is however some weird skill alocations, but if he wants to put them in there, let him. And with his choice of skills, there are not very many other places to put those skillpoints either. (allthough I don't see any reason for anyone to follow this build exactly as written)

It is not, by any means, an optimal build, and imo it's a very booring build.
However, some might find it ...err... entertaining? ...

Bit of critique to callsignapollo tho;
People say this is your third post of this guide, with very little changes.
I haven't been able to find this in search mode tho, so I won't comment on that.
But you do not take others oppinions into account, and you call people who disagree with you names, (allthough some of those people who disagree have a pretty radical way of expressing themselves ), you are reluctant to admit that there are flawes to your build, and you contineously flame the members of the community who shares their experience.

But credits to you, it's a well-written guide, and a quite bold and radical one, even tho not very viable for the majority of the readers.

That's all
Got a bit messy, but what the ****, I'm not an author=P

 

[Jcakes1]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

I agree with most of what you say TheStone, except that it is efficient at what it does.

A sorc with no plus skills just 20 orb, 20 cm 1 teleport and 1 static can kill meph faster (assuming 105fcr) as can a blizz sorc (I am sure, but can't math craft it as I don't know how often a blizz hits meph on average per cast).

It is also an unfortunate fact that increasing the speed of a run is (almost) always more efficient than increasing mf, and for this reason a guide that trys to do the opposite (increase mf at the cost of speed) will (nearly) always fail.

The other quite major problem with this guide is that it claims optimum mfing, yet it can only really kill meph (and slower than a sorc at that). For a guide to be optimum at mfing it should be able to run the alvl 85 areas (WS K, pits, ancient tunnels etc.) and it should do this while OPTIMISING kill speed vs. mf (not just maximg mf).

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

This guide is getting alot of views and positive feedback on youtube.


It may seem like I haven't responded to criticism fairly; but in fact I've addressed essentially every concern that's been raised with my build over the past year or more in the multiple iterations and hundreds of posts that have ensued. Many common criticisms to this build are actually addressed within the guide itself!


In my experience the difference in killspeed between a budget sorc. and a fine tuned version of this build is quite small. After all I have several mf sorcs; it's not as if I haven't already drawn the comparisons that everyone here has made repeatedly. I enjoy using both builds for magic finding. However, in practice I've been inclined to use this Barbarian build over the Sorceress build because in playtesting this build gets better results IMO.


Another common criticism of my guide is that I "claim my build is optimal". Indeed I do; that's the whole point. This isn't meant as big-headed bragging. This build idea started with the assertion that the Barbarian has the potential to be the "optimal" mf character over the sorceress. An assertion that has been made repeatedly by high caliber guide designers and Diablo fans for quite some time. This is due to the barbarian's stat distribution and duel wield etc.. really, all this is explained in my guide... In fact I have a whole section explaining just this!


Some people must have skipped over large sections of my guide before criticizing it because I lay out most of the reasonings and drawbacks to the build in my guide...





The thing I REALLY want to point out is how unfair it is to repeatedly critique a build with no hard evidence! How many people who seem to despise this build have TRIED it? I'm willing to bet FEW to NONE.


Some of these people write this build off as a gf Barbarian copycat but that would be hugely unfair. I'm willing to bet none of those people have actually implemented the differences or built the character that I specifically and painstakingly laid out in my guide! A goldfinding Barbarian is much easier to make and in principle works COMPLETELY differently!


In your defense this build is a pain in the neck to make and is very particular in terms of item choice and is WAYY expensive, and yes it's meant for Non-Ladder. But TRY to understand that it's alot easier to knock something you haven't tried.


How many people criticizing my build have in-depth knowledge of mf-Sorceress builds? I'm willing to bet that most do. Does this seem fair to me? No! Clearly the standing opinion is stacked against me.




Another thing that MUST be pointed out is this.. Since when does a build have to be better than all other similar builds to be recognized, played and accepted as a build? There are MANY builds on this forum in all of the character classes that are not as efficient or aren't as powerful as similar builds but this I think does not make them any less interesting.. In fact these are the builds that are sometimes the most fun to play.


My point is, this particular build seems to have been criticized as something not worth trying by people who have not tried it and because it SEEMS as if it would be less efficient than similar builds in other character classes. This is a standard that would exclude MANY accepted and fun builds not only from being considered efficient but from being considered at all!




All I ask is that future criticisms be grounded in hard, honest playtesting; because this build and my efforts to contribute to the D2 community deserve more than to be summarily dismissed without anyone ever trying my build!


So, I greatly respect the experience and knowledge of those here on the forums but I feel that this point has to be made. I only hope that it does not fall upon deaf ears.


-CallsignAPOLLO

 

[nebux1]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

i can't try your build as i play sp legit, but i can tell that your build is still slow at killing meph

 

[Shanksie1337]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Ahh i wasn't going to post on this thread, as it was happily on page 6 or so, but seeing as it's risen it's head again i'll post (and probably be ignored )

CSA in your last post you kinda outlined the whole problem with your "build" - no one has tried it, no one on ladder is ever going to throw 14 Ists + X HR's at an mf build that is comparable with a bog standard mf sorc. So that means your "build" isn't really a build at all, more of a novellty idea based on 2 items (see below) for rich bored NL ppl.

Your whole "optimal" build relies on the fact your barb is the only class to be able to dual wield 6 Ist weapons and can dual Ist an IK helm for 90mf everything else applies to all classes.

Barb vs Sorc
Dual Ist IK Helm = +15 mf vs Ist'd Shako
2 extra Ists on switch = +60mf
Enigma vs Ist'd Skullders = -49mf @clvl99

So your 14 Ists and X HR's gain you a massive 26mf - which by any measure apart from yours is so far from optimal it's untrue. Especially when you factor in the fact that the sorc will also have her merc dealing damage, thus speeding her up even further. The Sorc's merc could easily have exactly the same gear as the barbs merc, thus giving the sorc a full sorc's damage more than the teleport barb and merc. I think it really doesn't need pages of theorycrafting to balance +26mf against 10+ Ists saved, faster runs and more variable areas to mf in.

For a few more Ist's (compared to the sorc) i could build a enigma-din and mf everywhere in the whole game solo - granted i'll have 75mf less than your barb, but seriously once you're over 500mf or so the extra mf gains is very marginal - yes yes i know, more is still more but we're talking about fractions of fractions of arachnids here balanced against about being able to kill every boss and clear all the highest TC class areas.

I will end by saying that the guide is very well written, the youtube videos are well done and the whole thing is obviously very dear to you, i wrote a Zon guide some years ago, so i know exactly how you feel about your project. It's just sad that you seem almost blind to the most basic criticism. The whole concept of a good build/guide is that ppl read it and think "yeah that sounds good, i'll try it". MF is supposed to increase your wealth and quite simply the cost/benefit of this idea fails to add up, i don't need to build the char to know this and neither does anyone else.

 

[Shanksie1337]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Gah sorry to reply to myself, but:

"An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-ing!" - is an oxymoron

And as such, your replies to criticism such as "it's all explained in the thread / guide / title" simply fail to the same lack of logic.

Check the definition of the word optimal
Optimal: most desirable possible under a restriction expressed or implied.

So in the case of mf'ing, optimality would have to be a function of:

• mf total
• killing speed
• cost
• TC farmed (expected gains)

i think the word you should have used would be:

Maximum

 

[mephiztophelez]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

shanksie1337: there is no point in "debating" CSA about this monstrosity, he just won't listen.

all the points you have raised have been raised NUMEROUS times in the thrice-posted history of this "guide" (thats right, this thing has been reposted THREE times now).

now please, just let it die.

 

[Shanksie1337]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

This is a forum, there are threads on forums and sometimes people may actually decide they want to post on said threads, if you don't like it, simply don't read it.

Posting to express your dissappointment that the thread has been posted in is very self defeating . Especially when you've posted to tell me things that i clearly stated i already knew in my first post (#215) :doh:

(This could turn into a having the last say kinda arguement, but the win thing is i don't really care whether this thread dies or not, as i found the 22 pages quite amusing )

 

[omgwtfbbqpwned]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

I have to admit though, the effort put into writing this guide really shows. The lay-out, structure, and format is one of the most appealing I've seen in guides.

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Not every build is cheap or even efficient to make...

I'm fine debating whether or not this is a good build... In fact I think it would be a terrible idea for most players to try this build. As I said; this build is for players that have been playing a LONG TIME and have the items already to make the build or have the wealth necessary to trade for them. Besides alot of powerful builds require similarly or even more expensive items than six-isted swords... A two socket crown of ages and high level runewords come to mind...

Shanksie is one of MANY that bring up similar builds that can be made on a budget... Thats just not the intention! Besides this build isn't supposed to be cheap! Doesn't anyone want to play around with all the wealth they've accrued in D2 over the past many years? And also, this is the BARBARIAN forum, please take the sorceress discussion elsewhere!!

My problem is that I don't want to debate whether this is or is not a build at all, as some might. Just take it for what it is. It does not need to "die"....


Perhaps I should stop commenting on most of the negative feedback I get; as most people on other forums or youtube know, about 80% of comments are dumb, racist, mean or just stupid. Maybe there's a little bit of that going on here... I've seen posts like this on some of the best guides on these forums. It's a shame..