HC MP/Trade Folks: Your opinions about extreme-cheese are wanted, please post!

[logoutzero]

Thy et-all:
This thread might belong in the MP or Trading forum instead, and I do apologize in advance, I wasn't sure which was more suiting, and I also wanted to make sure it got some exposure, as it's very important. I understand if it is moved, please, I don't mean any harm!

This is addressed to the Hardcore MP/Trade pool specifically. I am in constant contact with most of the more active players, however, I wanted to post this for those that either A) aren't part of the HC Hamachi group, or B) aren't signed in all the time. I wanted a central place to bring this to everyone's attention, and ask for your opinions, because what each of us does, affects everyone else, in both positive and negative ways, depending on your own preferences.

This thread is to garner interest, and find out what amount of cheese we, as a collective group of players, are comfortable accepting.

With the relative ease we have to time travel in Single Player, we have the opportunity to bring forward some pretty neat (and sometimes way to easy to get) stuff. I recently have successfully installed and played in the following patches:

1.00, 1.06b, 1.07, 1.08, 1.09b, 1.10a, and 1.10s. If you don't know about some of the things available in these patches, there are plenty of guides here that explain them.

Specifically, I wanted to find out, from those that partake in MP and Trading, if I need to exercise restraint in forwarding things. For example, in 1.00 it is extremely easy to gamble for The Stone of Jordan. I need to know how you all would feel about me bringing some forward, not only for personal use, but to give away as well?

Also, it is very very easy to rush in 1.00. Rushees don't even have to be partied, or complete the quests to move forward in the acts. (I discovered this accidentally while self MP'ing with mules, the mules weren't even partied yet Warriv would take them East.) Ideally, I could see using this for Hellforge rushing, but, I don't want to hyper-inflate our economy.

Also, we have the fabled Resistance Jewelry crafting in early patches (The ring+gem+potion=Ring with single resistance, or 6 Pgems+Amulet=Prismatic Amulet) Some of you may know, it is possible for this recipe to produce Set and Unique jewelry, with resistances (or at least, I've seen it mentioned in time travel guides.) That, in itself, is not so bad, it can take some time to gather the gems needed to do this crafting. But what if, I was to use a Paladin, and abuse the unlimited +Skills bug associated with Milabrega's set to walk around the wilderness, collecting easy gems? Is that too cheesy for some?

I could go on and on with what things are possible with time travel, but I think most of you already know this information. Before I start going crazy collecting awesome treasures from the past and bringing them forward, I wanted to get a general idea from everyone involved in the MP/Trade pool as to what they are comfortable allowing, and not.

Thanks for your time for reading this, please post and let me know your opinions, I will respect them!

 

[Drystan1]

For example, in 1.00 it is extremely easy to gamble for The Stone of Jordan. I need to know how you all would feel about me bringing some forward, not only for personal use, but to give away as well?

As long as you give me some, fine.
Seriously, it's a tough area. I'm fine with forwarding things, however, at the same time, there's a risk of flooding. I know it's "easy" to gamble SoJ's in 1.00, but don't know the odds. On B.net, SoJ's are worthless, because they've been duped - if suddenly SoJ's were just being given away here, would they lose the excitement for those finding them, by running for them or by coincidental drop? Would someone (anyone,) stop getting excited/enjoyment when they see a golden ring drop, because they know they can just ask you or the other MP'ers for one?

I'm fine with moving things forward, but would be reserved if it made it less enjoyable for even one person - anyone. Limitations and responsibility is the key here for me, I think. The HC MP scene is fairly small, but at the same time, offering a couple SoJ's to start someone up in HC may also be possible, so it may actually make more people enjoy HC!

HF Rushing

HF rushing has always been around, and many in previous versions. I've done some small amounts of current patch+expansion rushing, and even that was very fast. My limitation was that I could only have 4-5 games running on my laptop before it would slow down.
But others have made characters in previous versions, and dropped the Expansion (I believe,) so they could skip the A5 quests, and remove the minimum level cap requirement of completing the Ancients quest.

It's already done in previous versions - what you're asking is just a step to another previous version. Nothing different - just another version to skip more quests/requirements, and to speed it up further.
As with the SoJ's, the problem would be if 5-10 people did this, and it took basically no time - would people suddenly feel less excitement or enjoyment out of the game to see those runes? Would people get bored of D2 quicker, since it is over a decade old? Or would people having easier access to Infi/Nigma/Forti/BotD bring a few new people to HC MP?
Restraint and limits would be the key to finding a balance between enjoyment, and over-flooding to me. I don't want to sound elitist, but maybe keep it within a small group - encourage people to remain within the forums and MP community for time, and play unusual builds together, before giving things out freely/abundantly and having those newcomers disappear a week later with heaps of items because they've got too much too quickly and become bored.

But what if, I was to use a Paladin, and abuse the unlimited +Skills bug associated with Milabrega's set to walk around the wilderness, collecting easy gems? Is that too cheesy for some?

What? Please explain - that's awesome!

 

[logoutzero]

Drystan,

I wasn't really thinking I would stock up some huge, grand armory and pass things out willy-nilly to anyone that put their hand out. When I said "give some away" I only meant that because I wouldn't feel right trading something for it, when it only cost me 48k gold per gamble, and 3/100 odds for a gold one to show up. I wasn't planning on hoarding/forwarding the things en masse. The same goes for Hellforge rushing. I don't forsee me rushing 1000 characters at a time, collecting/cubing/trading the runes, or producing runewords like an assembly line in China. This is why I wanted feedback.

The way I see it, these items don't stay around forever, like in Softcore. At the rate Pharphis deeds characters, I could give him 10 SoJ's and they'd be gone in a week!

I kinda figured, most of this time-cheese would basically stay within the very active Hamachi player's hands, because even though we all have a fairly good collection of endgame, and twinking stuff, we still pretty often play untwinked characters through the game. What would I be doing right now if I had 2 Enigmas instead of 0? Playing a Tele-singer, Tele-zerker, or some other awesome build I've wanted to play for years. Instead of running LK a few thousand times, and not even get a mid rune to show for it.

I do agree that some restraint will be needed. But, don't think I'm trying to mass-produce this stuff. I still want to play the game and enjoy it too!

And the Milabrega's thing. Well, supposedly (haven't tested this yet, Ancient Armors cost 800k to gamble, and my highest character can't hold that much yet) if you equip the full set, and get the set bonus (which includes +2 Paladin Skills) the +skills mod stays on your character even after you remove the set. Equip, remove, equip, remove, equip, remove. Do this 100 times, and get +200 to all skills. Supposedly. And, it's supposed to work with a Necromancer with Infernal Tools as well. I was thinking this would be a pretty easy way to collect Chipped Gems and Rings/Amulets for crafting!

 

[Drystan1]

It's not as an individual, but as a whole. You do it a few times, someone else does it a few times, a third does it a dozen times. A lurker may do it more, and come onto this forum trying to give away a significant (rushed,) wealth, and be given skepticism/caution. As long as it's kept within a close group, and everyone knows what is being done, it's all good and what is proposed is within the SPF rules.

As said, I'm okay with it in moderation and responsibility, as what you propose is little different to what is already done. I believe some still gamble 1.00 SoJ's (less common, but still possible with the number of characters we, as the SPF, have made,) and none of it is against the rules. Just be honest with those you MP/trade with - let them know you run multiple versions for HF rushes, gambling uniques or cheese toppings, and most will be fine with it.

The way I see it, these items don't stay around forever, like in Softcore. At the rate Pharphis deeds characters, I could give him 10 SoJ's and they'd be gone in a week!

I kinda thought this might be more close to the objectives.

 

[nulio]

Collecting chippies is easy and fast already, at least in 1.07.

And odds for resistance unique rings/amulets are crazy anyway


About the 1.00 rushing. In 1.07, partying members takes almost no time and just one rushed char needs to be present where killing bosses, there's no level cap for ancients, no need to collect act3 stuff, etc, etc. So there isn't that much of a difference. And I'm sure a 1.07 rushee can be stronger/faster. So there's no extra cheese I'd say.

 

[pharphis]

The way I see it, these items don't stay around forever, like in Softcore. At the rate Pharphis deeds characters, I could give him 10 SoJ's and they'd be gone in a week!

This is lies and you know it.

 

[Pyrotechnician1]

It's not as an individual, but as a whole. You do it a few times, someone else does it a few times, a third does it a dozen times. A lurker may do it more, and come onto this forum trying to give away a significant (rushed,) wealth, and be given skepticism/caution. As long as it's kept within a close group, and everyone knows what is being done, it's all good and what is proposed is within the SPF rules.

As said, I'm okay with it in moderation and responsibility, as what you propose is little different to what is already done. I believe some still gamble 1.00 SoJ's (less common, but still possible with the number of characters we, as the SPF, have made,) and none of it is against the rules. Just be honest with those you MP/trade with - let them know you run multiple versions for HF rushes, gambling uniques or cheese toppings, and most will be fine with it.


I kinda thought this might be more close to the objectives.

I'm too lazy to do it myself, that's why I approve of logout doing it for me.

 

[crawlingdeadman1]

I'm too lazy to do it myself, that's why I approve of logout doing it for me.

What he said.^

 

[Drystan1]

I'm too lazy to do it myself, that's why I approve of logout doing it for me.

Time for me to go back to the MP group - if only our timezones worked out better...

 

[BobCox2]

IMHO

It's a virtual world, people can build all the Cheese they want, with those they play with, that the game will drop.
It's what they play for.
But it's a good legit question to use if you don't want to play with the Big Cheese.
So I like that you posted it in reference to a specific group of players as I don't play there anymore.

 

[logoutzero]

And odds for resistance unique rings/amulets are crazy anyway

Well, I think that since there are no weights in Classic (IE unique rings always spawn Nagel>Manald>SoJ) that the odds aren't as bad as LoD, where you have weights added to mix up the drops. If you wear the first 2 unique rings, the next unique ring is ALWAYS the third. So, logic seems to me that if crafting them with the resistance recipe, the same odds as gambling a unique will apply, IE 3:100 are unique, and which unique it is is 100% predictable. This isn't the case in 1.07. My idea was to carry the first 2 gold rings, and craft res rings until it rolls a unique, which will be forced to be a SoJ. Maybe faulty logic, I haven't found anything on this.

As for the rushing, since this is Hardcore, even having to have 1 character present for killing the bosses is risky. The rushee might die, or my rusher might die when switching screens. In 1.00, they all just sit in town. No added risk, other than having a full-er game. Granted, it might be considerably slower with lack of LoD gears and skill balances...

Phar, just teasing, ofc.

Poro and CDM, thanks guys, great contributions!

 

[FredOfErik]

With poro and cdm on this one :badteeth:

I've never had a problem with time-travelling and I've wanted a beta CTA since forever, so I welcome all the cheese you can get. I would be the first bidder in those kinda trades.

I see especially Drystan's points on the SoJ, and I, personally, would appreciate if potential 1.00 SoJs were also tagged or marked as 1.00 when trading/giving. That at least allows people to choose whether they wanna participate in the cheesyness or not.

 

[nulio]

One question tho... Is there HC wealth that would buy all that?

Gambling, crafting, rushing, etc, etc, even with extra cheese it's still very time consuming. So I still doubt that the HC economy would be flooded with it. And prices won't go down that much.


If you confirm that "gem crafting" has same odds for uniques than gambling let me know. I'd have one more thing to do in 1.06b!

 

[Pyrotechnician1]

Time for me to go back to the MP group - if only our timezones worked out better...

I've actaully been itching for a new group pretty bad, and some of the others are more active again, I've actually been able to play with one of fred/cdm/logout almost daily now.

To the actual topic:

I have no problem with the gambling of sojs, this has been known to be a thing in prior patches and people have done it.

I have no problem with "safer" hellforge rushing, also has been done multiple times, the only difference is where the extra characters sit, I don't see why that would be much of an issue.

The only one thats "slightly" overboard, if it actually works that is, is the stacking of skills to over 9,000. It just seems like something thats drastically broken, but its not like drastically broken things haven't been used before.

Crafting unique rings with hidden res, also a known thing that has been done, but has unlikely odds. If you can confirm that crafting an soj with a hidden res has the odds of gambling it, then awesome, but I still feel those rings would be few and far between.

In an overall standpoint, if the market were to "flood" we would see either the drop in rune prices in HC, or the drop of soj prices (like tons of these are being traded anyway). Overall items would become more valuable in comparison to runes with mass hellforge rushing, but then it would open up all those wonderful builds I actually want to try (dual dream bear sorc? Yes please), but can't because I don't have the time to LK for hours on end.

 

[logoutzero]

With poro and cdm on this one :badteeth:

(...)

I see especially Drystan's points on the SoJ, and I, personally, would appreciate if potential 1.00 SoJs were also tagged or marked as 1.00 when trading/giving. That at least allows people to choose whether they wanna participate in the cheesyness or not.

This is the part that has me in shambles. Let's say I were to bring forward some SoJs. CDM tosses 1 on his Telezon, and Pharphis builds a new MF FoHer for AT. Now, anything that comes into contact with those 2 characters (read: all the HR's that Pharphis seems to find) are now tainted by 1.00 cheese anyways. So, unless we are all going to keep the time cheese stuff locked in to time cheese only characters, over time, the entire MP/Trade pool in HC is going to become time cheesed. Not really different from now, since many players keep their self-found stashes, and their MP stuff separate anyway. Also, it's a very good point that these things are all going to take time anyway, so the market isn't going to become flooded over a period of a week or two.

Really, what it boils down to, in my mind, is this:

Anyone in the HC MP/T pool is already FAM anyways, and I remember Solar's gosu Trapper had a bugged MPK ring, so we are all already time cheese tainted anyway. Maybe it would be a good idea to limit the HRs to only 1 or 2 each of the Beta RWs, and maybe 3-5 HRs in 1.13d? I'm not looking to become wealthy with this stuff, I only want to make the game more enjoyable for us. If we had 10 beta CtA's and 13 Enigmas and 9 BotD's and 1400 SoJ's and, and, and, and, I'm pretty sure none of the active players would burn out, in fact, these items would allow us to play builds we've wanted to, but the wealth just isn't there* in the HC pool.

Also, another thing to keep in mind, is because this is HC, PvM is the endgame, so, getting the best gears only allows us to do what we are already doing, and will continue to do for eternity...

*One last note for this post, for people who aren't active in the trade pool, is this:

The wealth is certainly there to afford people trading things like HR's and RW's and things like that. I could easily afford to trade for a Jah and a Ber if they were to come available, and I think I'm probably the "poorest" one in the pool. The problem is, that since there are only a handful of us, items like these simply don't drop very often, and when they do, they get put to use immediately. So, if by dumb luck, and sheer gaming fortitude, I were to HF rush and forward 3 HR's next week, I don't see the economy becoming inflated, because we have the wealth to afford these things, they just aren't being produced. Does that make sense?

(...)

If you confirm that "gem crafting" has same odds for uniques than gambling let me know. I'd have one more thing to do in 1.06b!

I will let you know! I just got my first HC character past Act 2 yesterday, so I have my first HC cube. I imagine I will be doing some gem crafts over the weekend, even though I don't have the first 2 unique rings yet in HC, since in SC I averaged Gold in every ~20 or so gambles, I should at least be able to see if the same odds apply.

 

[nulio]

Btw, scrcrw told me that he tested before, and if he recalls it correctly, gem crafts doesn't work in 1.06b like in 1.07. And 1.00 should be like in 1.06b I'd say.

So no res SoJs. This thread also doesn't mention that possibility and even says this while referring to cube recipes:

Honestly, most of these are useless, but I'll put them here anyways just in case. The most useful one is the 6 pskulls + rare item recipe, which is covered in more detail in the Rare Items section.

I'm pretty sure that if that was possible, we would have seen several resistance Stone of Jordans.

 

[logoutzero]

Btw, scrcrw told me that he tested before, and if he recalls it correctly, gem crafts doesn't work in 1.06b like in 1.07. And 1.00 should be like in 1.06b I'd say.

So no res SoJs. This thread also doesn't mention that possibility and even says this while referring to cube recipes:



I'm pretty sure that if that was possible, we would have seen several resistance Stone of Jordans.

I know from personal experience that the gem crafting jewelry does work in 1.00, I did it on my first playthrough to get some needed resistances to tackle CS so I could start in HC. The problem in 1.00 (and according to patch notes, this is fixed later) is that these affixes aren't saved properly, and re-roll after S&E. I have not tested these recipes in 1.06b (haven't gotten there yet, but I could easily forward a test character for sake of completion) but I can verify for 100% fact that they function (albeit improperly) in 1.00.

***At least with rings!

 

[nulio]

The mod res roll from the craft is re-rolled? Or the affixes in the magic item?

 

[logoutzero]

The mod res roll from the craft is re-rolled? Or the affixes in the magic item?

The affixes are re-rolled, regardless of where it comes from. I had a Coral Ring (maybe it was 29% Lit Res) drop for me along the way while questing. The next game, it turned into a +1 Light Radius ring. I crafted a Coral Ring, and the next game it was a Life Leech ring. Both cases, the rings had new affixes (ie Coral Ring became Ring of the Lamprey, or whatever it is, I can't remember off the top of my head.) I haven't discovered yet if this only applies to rings, but in the patch notes, it says "items" so I would assume it applies to amulets as well. The other thing I don't know, is if the gem craft rolls a unique, does it re-roll the "hidden" affix as well? Or does the whole ring re-roll? I might abuse backing up the .d2s file today, with a softcore character, just to run some testing on what is actually possible, and what the outcomes are if they aren't saved properly. Obviously, nothing will come out of these tests, I just haven't amassed enough gems to do a significant amount of cubing to get reliable results.

 

[nulio]

If it was named "coral ring", the recipe does not work like in 1.07. In 1.07 you get the resistance added to the one or two affixes the ring gets. And ring has the names of said affixes.

This was what I meant before.