Grats D2 for the win!

Inu said:
... In D2 PvP you can become a "skilled" dueler by practising for an hour. In BW you need YEARS of practise to just become semi-good...

The skill required for D2 league PvP is not even one thousand of BW...
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Well but that's exactly SC's problem...not too much people have YEARS of time to spend to get good at video game. And even those that do not all of them are excited about spending countless hours of practice until they can achieve something. Not all people play games just to get skilled or good at them, but just to relax/have fun.
 
Inu said:
... In D2 PvP you can become a "skilled" dueler by practising for an hour. In BW you need YEARS of practise to just become semi-good...
The skill required for D2 league PvP is not even one thousand of BW...
Click to expand...

No, you can't. Not *really*.

What you *can* get is the idea that you're good, which lasts about as long as you don't have to come up against someone with any real skill. :)

I also don't get the point of bringing BW into this, but sure, it takes time to learn that too.
 
Anidem said:
In D2 you can also become a skilled dueler by spending an hour on eBay. I stand by my claim and apparently others agree also.
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You are free to, of course. I suspect, however, that those who think like you do, have never really considered D2 pvp a serious competitive sport. D2 tournaments are every bit as intensive as any other gaming tournament.
 
Anidem said:
If you really don't believe that Dueling is 80% equip then your a fool. the rest is 10% lagg related and 10% Cat Jumped on the Fukin Keyboard related.
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Because I nowadays do all of my dueling in a closed environment where everybody's equipment is absolutely equal to anybody else's, I would have to say that what makes a difference there is, indeed, the player skill and nothing else. To some extent the ability to come up with a superior build, too, of course.
 
Just a thought that you might consider as you are visiting here : It is never polite to piss in your host's soup.
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Unless it's like, one of THOSE kinds of parties... but perhaps it's best not to get into that.


And Half-Life is going to go all the way. The game, the mods, the tender moments... man, I wish I could find my HL CD. I feel like cappin' some headcrabs.
 
Sanna said:
You are free to, of course. I suspect, however, that those who think like you do, have never really considered D2 pvp a serious competitive sport. D2 tournaments are every bit as intensive as any other gaming tournament.
Click to expand...
I beg to differ. I used to think like you, that D2 PvP involved a great deal of skill. The problem is that because the game is built around items, oppenents never start on equal footing. Yes, skill is involved at the highest level of PvP but the typical duel is determined by who owns the better items.
In contrast, every SC or BW game starts off exactly the same way. Already at the beginning of each game, all players involved have equal chances of winning. The outcome of every game is determined by skill. On top of that, the game is beautifully balanced.
You can't say that for D2. All the dueling leagues are confined by countless rules and regulations because D2 is not balanced PvP.

While I wouldn't say something like BW requires a thousand times more skill then D2, I would say that it required a lot more.

(My concept of skill involves the number of coordinated decisions a player must make during PvP. In RTS games, basically the whole game is played by acting and then reacting; decisions are made constantly and most are based on what happens as the game is played. All decisions are made depending on what happens during the action. There is a reason why they call them STRATEGY games. In D2 PvP, most of the decisions are made before the duel takes place. D2 PvP is mainly character planning. Stat point distribution. Item selection. The main reason duels don't come to a draw is because someone comes up with an advantage. Usually, that advantage is obtained before the action begins.)
 
*SIGH* TFT i sharder overall than Broodwar?

???

???

Not even SlayerS_`BoxeR` have perfected his gameplay and he's the biggest legend in the gamingscene.

In BW you have to multitask, take expands, kill expands, drop at multiple places while attacking to cause confusion while macroing and producing from 23 gateways while building pylons etc... No one is even close of getting close to perfect gaming.

In TFT you micro most of the time. The units have HUGE HP, the game is slow so the micro is REALLY easy. You can h otkey all production buildings of the same type to produce etc, you can queue upgrades etc. You need next to nil multitasking. Only micro!

The micro in BW is EXTREMELY hard and that is what separates the pros from the average people. If you only rely on macro you have no chance. I've seen many PP's in TFT but never seen ONE SINGLE in BW.

This is objective view. I play both. I've played BW for years. I was the leader of aNc ( The worlds strongest BW team with members such as XellOs[yG], GoRush, SaferZerg. It was also great TFT team with aNc.DeliCato, aNc.SjoW etc ) I know both games on prolevel, not "casual player level". I now play TFT. I started my account "Undead" about 1 week ago and got about 160 games player, I increase in skill so rapidly it's insane ( Taking into consideration the fact that when I started I did not know anything about ANYTHING in TFT... ). I love TFT but it's VERY easy and newbiefriendly compared to BW.

---

Hey, by saying D2 does not require skill is not an insult, it's a fact. Back in 1.06 I was a member of diablose, used to be the biggest PvP league. I was ranked #3 with my Sorceress. The thing is in D2 it's easy not to make mistakes, if you don't make mistakes the one who wins in the end is the one with most pots ( Amazons never hit me and slowly forced to use potions because of Static Field. Barbs could not get close. Necros Bone Spirit far to slow etc... ) It's not skill. Anyone can do it after 30 minutes practise in the Blood Moor...

I know Brood War and Diablo 2 inside out from experience. I know TFT from progamers experiences.

I'm not dissing anyone but I have my facts and if people take offense then perhaps they should make a forum called "ONLY PRAISE TO D2!! THERE IS NO DUPE!" I've played D2 for all i nall 2,5 years average 8 hours a day. You think I dislike the game???

EDIT: Wooo I just read my own post and it looks like I'm full of myself :p I must say that in BW I sucked and increased slowly, I was really bad. In contrast to the rapid increase in skill in TFT.
 
Wuhan_Clan said:
I beg to differ. I used to think like you, that D2 PvP involved a great deal of skill. The problem is that because the game is built around items, oppenents never start on equal footing. Yes, skill is involved at the highest level of PvP but the typical duel is determined by who owns the better items.
Click to expand...

I no longer play where the items are a concern (i.e. I don't play on battle.net, I don't even play 1.10). So my thoughts are fully based on a situation where everybody *does* have an equal footing.

It was rather fun to beat people with better items on bnet, though.
 
Inu said:
Hey, by saying D2 does not require skill is not an insult, it's a fact. Back in 1.06 I was a member of diablose, used to be the biggest PvP league. I was ranked #3 with my Sorceress. The thing is in D2 it's easy not to make mistakes, if you don't make mistakes the one who wins in the end is the one with most pots ( Amazons never hit me and slowly forced to use potions because of Static Field. Barbs could not get close. Necros Bone Spirit far to slow etc... ) It's not skill. Anyone can do it after 30 minutes practise in the Blood Moor...
Click to expand...

Perhaps, then, you were a natural ;)
30 minutes is simply not true though. Although with a sorc specifically it's called "ping" that matters - but that matters in fps games a LOT. Or how many fps players are there that play on servers with 200 ping? :) I really *would* like to see anyone here go against the good players, but that isn't gonna happen. Ah well.

People used potions? You seriously make me doubt the kind of people you played with. 1.06 was kinda fun though. Much, much different than 1.09 and 1.10... I remember it fondly. It's different now, though. 1.06 was much simpler... but good.

Inu said:
I'm not dissing anyone but I have my facts and if people take offense then perhaps they should make a forum called "ONLY PRAISE TO D2!! THERE IS NO DUPE!" I've played D2 for all i nall 2,5 years average 8 hours a day. You think I dislike the game???
Click to expand...

It is, then, funny that we both have the facts but we should arrive at such different conclusions. My opinions are based on 1.09, though, which is a lot more complicated than 1.06 (as far as I can remember). 1.10 is too much "shoot and hope" for my taste again.
 
On Diablose the host could chose some presets. Pots or not, area etc...

The non-pot ones I never lost one single time since a few statics and one Orb then GG...

In the pot-ones I lost when I pinged, as you said and "double-tele'd" and a Barb got his WW in or Amazon stunlocked me since GA hit...

In LoD ( Which was a JOKE before 1.1 ) you had superduper Damage reduce, resist and absorb, hence pots made battles INCREDIBLY timeconsuming...

And no, 30 minutes was enough to learn the teleport frequency and Static intervals, teleport within a certain radius to make sure static hit and that Ama could not fixate GA..

Amazon was the only problem before ;/

The reason why there are different opinions is that most people A: are casual players. B: Played LoD. Casual players have no saying in the matter as they don't even try to play on the same level hence their opinions is not relevant ( No offense at all, at least you have a life ) And B since LoD ruined the balance of Diablo2 and introduced uniques so that everyone wore the same outfit...
 
Inu said:
On Diablose the host could chose some presets. Pots or not, area etc...
Click to expand...

Interesting... but we disagree on so many fundamental principles that we're just never going to reach an agreement on this. :) So I won't try.
 
Well, D2 has its final glorious victory today before bowing out to Half-life (who should beat Halo, but you never know). A D2/Half-life matchup will probably set a record for most votes in a match (looks like Half-life/UT has the record right now).

Doom vs SMB3 looks like a good matchup for 2 completely different games.
 
Inu said:
In BW you have to multitask, take expands, kill expands, drop at multiple places while attacking to cause confusion while macroing and producing from 23 gateways while building pylons etc... No one is even close of getting close to perfect gaming.

In TFT you micro most of the time. The units have HUGE HP, the game is slow so the micro is REALLY easy. You can h otkey all production buildings of the same type to produce etc, you can queue upgrades etc. You need next to nil multitasking. Only micro!

The micro in BW is EXTREMELY hard and that is what separates the pros from the average people. If you only rely on macro you have no chance. I've seen many PP's in TFT but never seen ONE SINGLE in BW.
Click to expand...

I'm not a hardcore gamer as you ppl seem to be, but after reading these lines on your post, in my point of view, I believe that TFT has a much better gameplay compared to BW then, since it's less time and energy consuming to do things, when you said that "the micro in BW is extremely hard and that is what separates the pros from the average", I see it as a gameplay problem in BW, since it is those that are more able to micro manage (and by micromanagement you consider clicking the mouse around to check buildings, research, production, moving the screen around checking every detail on your base, etc.) that succeed, and not those who can manage to create the best strategy. As a programmer I see TFT as an large advance over BW. If there's one thing that makes TFT slow is as you mentioned the huge HP of the units and the horrible unit support system blizzard invented for it.
 
Crono said:
I'm not a hardcore gamer as you ppl seem to be, but after reading these lines on your post, in my point of view, I believe that TFT has a much better gameplay compared to BW then, since it's less time and energy consuming to do things, when you said that "the micro in BW is extremely hard and that is what separates the pros from the average", I see it as a gameplay problem in BW, since it is those that are more able to micro manage (and by micromanagement you consider clicking the mouse around to check buildings, research, production, moving the screen around checking every detail on your base, etc.) that succeed, and not those who can manage to create the best strategy. As a programmer I see TFT as an large advance over BW. If there's one thing that makes TFT slow is as you mentioned the huge HP of the units and the horrible unit support system blizzard invented for it.
Click to expand...

So the gameplay is better since its easier, that makes total sense :lol:
 
Making a game easier may be an improvement for you but it makes it worse for competition.

You say BW is no strategy? Let me break it down to you.

There are several things you need to be a good player:

Talent
Experience
Knowledge ( Kinda goes hand in hand with experience )
Micro
APM ( Fast hands. Progamers never go below 200 APM = 200 actions per minute. Peaks at 800 often )
Macro

In BW there are several viable openings contrary to TFT which have ONE single viable opening on prolevel ( 2 in a few matchups ). In BW you can go in TvZ for example 2 Barracks m&m rush or not. Tech tanks and siege him or you can go Dropship tech and harass his *** off.

You ALWAYS have to adapt to what the other player do and the strategic deep in BW is so enormous that TFT is pale in comparison.

BW have so much more variety and no game looks alike ( Unless you play public games lol ^_^ ) but in TFT every game looks more or less the same. Always the same build order, always the same units, creep patterns etc.

TFT is much more newbiefriendly as I mentioned and it makes it require less skill and be less suitable for competative play.

That's why the TFT progaming scene is so low in Korea.

And umm Unholy_Carnage, would D2 be better if you could have a 10.000 damage Frozen Orb at level 1 and everything die instantly? Well the gameplay is easier... Hence better, right?
 
Unholy_Carnage said:
So the gameplay is better since its easier, that makes total sense :lol:
Click to expand...

No, the game is easier since the gameplay is better.

Inu said:
BW have so much more variety and no game looks alike ( Unless you play public games lol ^_^ ) but in TFT every game looks more or less the same. Always the same build order, always the same units, creep patterns etc.
Click to expand...

I cannot say wether you're right or wrong here cause I never bothered to play any of them multiplayer, that's why I am merely talking about the gameplay difference and not the game balance issue. (That's also why I said I'm no hardcore in any of these 2 games, all I did was play their campaigns =P)

TFT is much more newbiefriendly as I mentioned and it makes it require less skill and be less suitable for competative play.
Click to expand...

But I still don't agree with that, TFT has better gameplay, as you'd expect from a game released years later than BW, it makes it easier, but in a multiplayer game what actually makes it easier is wether or not your opponent matches your level, TFT might need less skill because it is a different game with different balances, imagine if BW had the same interface TFT has, wouldn't it be a better game, since you'd waste less time to build your bases queuing buildings, queuing upgrades ?
(after reading all that it seems like a pretty useless discussion and totally off topic =P)
 
Inu said:
And umm Unholy_Carnage, would D2 be better if you could have a 10.000 damage Frozen Orb at level 1 and everything die instantly? Well the gameplay is easier... Hence better, right?
Click to expand...

Was my sarcasm that well cloaked? Sorry.......
 
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