Best Weapon For WWBarb?
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morotsjos said:
Then why don't you actually say the words "compared to?"
Be clear in your posts, sonny.
And actually, they are not trash in comparison to anything. My spear barb beats the **** out of anything in PvM, and he's designed for PvP.
so you're seriously saying that you spend more time _chasing_ monsters around than what you do killing them? you always play on normal difficulty?Omikron8 said:
so do hammerdins with 5k hammers instead of 15k. that doesn't mean they're better. in fact i'd call them trash, just like polearm jokes.MoD said:
morotsjos said:
Man , you are talking nonsense , range 5 is really powerfull , I dont chase freaking monsters since I tele with nigma. I could use fort, but I like tele.
I think that ww in PvM at least is better with 2handed weaps. Range is just better.
what you _think_ isn't really relevant.MoonDark said:
range is irrelevant as well since you, just like all other barbplayers, close the distance in 0.5 seconds with enigma.
fact is that 2 weapons=twice as much hits->more damage and at least twice as much crushing blow. what is hard to understand?
so exactly what is "really powerfull" with range 5 compared to range 3? everyone who has tried both knows that the difference isn't even that significant, and the time you spend chasing down monsters is _nothing_ compared to the time you spend continously whirling mobs with monsters who have thousands and thousands of life each.
people who think twohanders are viable (or even better lol) compared to dualwielding just dont grasp the concepts of crushing blow and ww basics. or you all play normal 1-player games only.
alright activate flame mode
I don't use enigma, if you assume that immediately then i think YOU are the damn noob who knows nothing more than some stupid duped runewords, hammerdins, etc. Fort is way better for pvm, THERE ARE BETTER BARB ARMORS THAN ENIGMA FOR PVM.
hey genius guess what the damage of a one hander is? TWICE OR LESS THAN A TWO HANDER? does your one handed weapon do 900 max damage one handed? NO IT DOES NOT
if you are going to spit out some damn statement like "you do twice as much damage" at least look at the damage of your weapons before you do some simple multiplication
Who said i chase after monsters? you know monsters have this magical thing called collision size? you don't see 341414151 monsters stacked on one location in melee range of you (unless they are ghosts/wraiths). Monsters surround a barb quickly and while i am killing those near me i am also wearing down those around them. If the monsters around the monsters near me are ranged then i am increasing my survival instead of sitting there like an idiot getting pelted by 1934871498147 burning dead archers or rogue archers.
We play on normal difficulty one player games? Look in the damn mirror buddy
I don't use enigma, if you assume that immediately then i think YOU are the damn noob who knows nothing more than some stupid duped runewords, hammerdins, etc. Fort is way better for pvm, THERE ARE BETTER BARB ARMORS THAN ENIGMA FOR PVM.
hey genius guess what the damage of a one hander is? TWICE OR LESS THAN A TWO HANDER? does your one handed weapon do 900 max damage one handed? NO IT DOES NOT
if you are going to spit out some damn statement like "you do twice as much damage" at least look at the damage of your weapons before you do some simple multiplication
Who said i chase after monsters? you know monsters have this magical thing called collision size? you don't see 341414151 monsters stacked on one location in melee range of you (unless they are ghosts/wraiths). Monsters surround a barb quickly and while i am killing those near me i am also wearing down those around them. If the monsters around the monsters near me are ranged then i am increasing my survival instead of sitting there like an idiot getting pelted by 1934871498147 burning dead archers or rogue archers.
We play on normal difficulty one player games? Look in the damn mirror buddy
I use enigma because I like to do MF, tele = faster runs , and nigma gives me MFin , thats why . i would go with fortitude if i wanted to kill more , ( I would do like 4k-16k ww. But I preffer to mfin.
I actually use nigma to make runs faster, my boots are goblin toe, so I don't have too much fast run speed , ( nigma gives already a lot ) , and I can have more contact with the mobs for more hits. ( no faster run walk skill point spent either ) .
For crushing blow , I use my rends , and the toe, ( for a total of 35% , not alot , but it works , and its noticeable ) .
Please don't flame me for mfin with a barb, i like it .
oh also , I really use taunt to bring the monsters to me , or tele to let my merc to kill archers very fast, when they all spread.
I actually use nigma to make runs faster, my boots are goblin toe, so I don't have too much fast run speed , ( nigma gives already a lot ) , and I can have more contact with the mobs for more hits. ( no faster run walk skill point spent either ) .
For crushing blow , I use my rends , and the toe, ( for a total of 35% , not alot , but it works , and its noticeable ) .
Please don't flame me for mfin with a barb, i like it .
oh also , I really use taunt to bring the monsters to me , or tele to let my merc to kill archers very fast, when they all spread.
To anyone who thinks two handed, non dual wielding barbarians are rubbish in PvM: apart from already knowing I can solo hell with my enigma/eth botd ghost spear barb easily, I've just found out he can handle Uber Diablo pretty easily too. I killed him in about two minutes just now.
Omikron8 said:
the simple maths says that 2 average griefs with no max damage charms has a higher average than a botd pole. grief and beast is supposed to be even more damaging and also supplies ar and other mods.
when you use max damage charms they get applied to each weapon making them doubly effective and 2 griefs minimum can approach the max on a 2 hander anyway.
Even though less damage is applied per hit as you hit more you trigger crushing more so the already higher damage of duel wield becomes even higher.
afaik, when hitting in a group you can only hit a certain number max per sec so that with a pole in a large group you'd not really be hitting more than dual wielder.
Nice thing for 2 handed is the range for approach hits (i only tele near if using enigma) and the looks.
you and many others obviously have no clue of what you're talking about. let me clear a few things up for you.Omikron8 said:
1. it's not worth to sacrifice the mobility of enigma to gain some (pretty insignificant) damage. not by far. you'll kill slower in the end since you'll have to waste more time running around like a lost donkey.
MoonDark has some valid points as well.
2. "hey genius guess what the damage of a one hander is?"
average damage of greater poleaxe/ghost spear=86.5
average damage of berserker axe=47.5
average damage of 2 berserker axes=95
you disappoint me, i actually expected an old-timer like you to grasp ww basics and the concept of dualwielding. since when did 86.5 >>>> 95?
"at least look at the damage of your weapons before you do some simple multiplication"
3. please lie less and learn to read instead. then provide link to where i said "twice as much damage" k thx?
if you still have a problem grasping how 2 weapons means more damage and at least TWICE AS MUCH CRUSHING BLOW, just let me know.
4. again you disappoint me. more range doesn't equal more hits. you hit once each 4:th frame REGARDLESS, assuming a monster is within range. with 2 weapons you hit TWICE each 4:th frame. we are playing 1.11 now, not 1.0x. what is hard to understand?
5. range 5 is TOTALLY USELESS except in the very very rare occasions when there a) is no monster within range 3 and b) there is a monster withing range 4 or 5.
not taking into account the fact that this monster in 95% of the cases will move into range 3 in the blink of an eye, all you need is half a second (if that) of whirling in monsters direction to close the gap. hard?
but sure, go ahead and make a weaker, inefficient barb, this is after all the most relevant pvm scenario and well worth sacrificing killing power for!!1!11
then again you're obviously the kinda guy who prefer wasting time watching your barb whirling bosspacks/running around back and forth in act3 for hours so who cares what you think?
6. if you still insist on that your crappy polearm barb would mow down a bosspack faster than a dualwielding barb you're just dumb. sorry for being sincere.
Well, except against big guys or super uniques, CB never comes into play as a 2 handed WW will kill anything else in the game in 1 maybe 2 hits.
an average grief zerger does around 422 damage. my eth botd glorious axe averages out to 690 damage. Even figuring a eth zerk at perfect damage you are still getting an average of less then 500. so yes, if you hit with both your axes, you do more damage on average. However, if we go max damage a dualer does less max damage then a 2 hander and you would have to account for the fact that anything that takes multiple hits to kill you will miss a fifth of the time, whereas 2 handers have to hit less times to do comparable damage.
The idea that either way is superior in PvM is a mute point however as both will kill whatever you are trying to kill, and do it quickly. So it comes down to a point of preference, which being a subjective ideal under the best of circumstances, relegates arguing this point further a waste of time.
an average grief zerger does around 422 damage. my eth botd glorious axe averages out to 690 damage. Even figuring a eth zerk at perfect damage you are still getting an average of less then 500. so yes, if you hit with both your axes, you do more damage on average. However, if we go max damage a dualer does less max damage then a 2 hander and you would have to account for the fact that anything that takes multiple hits to kill you will miss a fifth of the time, whereas 2 handers have to hit less times to do comparable damage.
The idea that either way is superior in PvM is a mute point however as both will kill whatever you are trying to kill, and do it quickly. So it comes down to a point of preference, which being a subjective ideal under the best of circumstances, relegates arguing this point further a waste of time.
flawed arguemnts but main point i will mention is in bold.Finraug said:
If axes miss 1/5th of the time then poles miss 1/5th (actually more as wont have the beast ar) that means that there are times when one axe hits for damage and the pole misses for no damage.
Its easy:
average damage matters, max doesn't.
damage over time matters, damage on screen doesn't.
I think I am missing something here, perhaps I do not understand it correctly:
IF you do not kill with one hit monster 'M'
THEN when you attack M, you are going to miss it 1/5 of the time
(simply put, let us say that we need 5 hit to kill M: we whirlwind M for 5 hits and then stop. M is still alive because an attack missed)
This is an hypothesis right ? We are assuming to have a 80% chance to hit M (assuming M does not block/dodge/evade) ? :scratch:
On the other hand:
Therefore, but I may be mistaken, the probability of a single axe missing is 20%, but the probability that both axes miss (assuming the events (axe1 misses) and (axe2 misses) are independent) is ...:fortuneteller: ...4%.
Still, the probability that at least one axe misses is 36%.
Basically this suggests to me that a dual wielder has less chance of making a 'null' passage, that is one where he does not hit. Indeed a dual wielder in this case hits with at least one of his weapons a fat 96% of the time.
A flat 20% of the times a 2h misses. I am not sure if that is going to be compensated by the higher weapon base damage output. A dual wielder, if I get the point of tothepoint, has generally a slim chance to miss completely.
This means thatFinraug said:
IF you do not kill with one hit monster 'M'
THEN when you attack M, you are going to miss it 1/5 of the time
(simply put, let us say that we need 5 hit to kill M: we whirlwind M for 5 hits and then stop. M is still alive because an attack missed)
This is an hypothesis right ? We are assuming to have a 80% chance to hit M (assuming M does not block/dodge/evade) ? :scratch:
On the other hand:
To be even we are here assuming that each of our favourite barb's axes has a chance to hit of 80%. Each.ToThePoint said:
Therefore, but I may be mistaken, the probability of a single axe missing is 20%, but the probability that both axes miss (assuming the events (axe1 misses) and (axe2 misses) are independent) is ...:fortuneteller: ...4%.
Still, the probability that at least one axe misses is 36%.
Basically this suggests to me that a dual wielder has less chance of making a 'null' passage, that is one where he does not hit. Indeed a dual wielder in this case hits with at least one of his weapons a fat 96% of the time.
A flat 20% of the times a 2h misses. I am not sure if that is going to be compensated by the higher weapon base damage output. A dual wielder, if I get the point of tothepoint, has generally a slim chance to miss completely.
I agree on that. My only objection is that IF the weapon has a high enough dmg output it could theoretically one-hit kill any foe. But I think that in 1.11 it is pretty rare. I have a druid with max 17k dmg fury and even if I hit for max in 8 players game it is not very common to one hit kill.ToThePoint said:
yeah but in this case imo combining probablities only shows more consistency
Over time i think its easier to compare if you consider the axes as independant
Thats 2 80% axes vs 1 80% pole. If axes are exactly half damage then over time they will perform the same interms of pure damage output
On max damage part i agree partly but the damage range is so large for 2 handers its too inconsistent to be relied on and depending on the lifes then the higher min damages of the 2 axes may be more effective.
Overall its average that matters to me but each to his/her own.
Over time i think its easier to compare if you consider the axes as independant
Thats 2 80% axes vs 1 80% pole. If axes are exactly half damage then over time they will perform the same interms of pure damage output
On max damage part i agree partly but the damage range is so large for 2 handers its too inconsistent to be relied on and depending on the lifes then the higher min damages of the 2 axes may be more effective.
Overall its average that matters to me but each to his/her own.
Just a sidetrack. Even if it's PvM, wouldn't it be better to get a shield too? Unless the barb isn't running CS/WSK, I think it'd be good if he's prepared for iron maiden. To do that, I personally feel that SS+eBOTDZ is one of the better option since you can have maxed block after switching from WW to Berserk.
PS. I know it kindda sucks for a barb to carry a shield because ideally, he should be attacking relentlessly, all the time! :azn:
PS. I know it kindda sucks for a barb to carry a shield because ideally, he should be attacking relentlessly, all the time! :azn:
Yes, indeed dual wielding gives me a better feeling of 'continuity', I was trying to figure out some numbers to have a slightly better idea.ToThePoint said:
I had a ww dual wielder in 1.09 and I had a ww polearm barb in single player.
I liked both, but I must admit that I wasn't really trying to get the most dmg/time, in single I used what I found, on bnet I used a pdr Barb ww/zerk gf+lightsabre/bk(or gf)+SS.
What I like of dual wielding is that you can have nice mods on both weapons, and you can combine them for some nice effects, like Auras for example.
You could have an aura per weapon, plus whatever else on other equipment :evil:
Two weapons suggests me more flexibility because a weapon is limited to a certain number of mods (most true for regular uniques and rares, but quite true for rw as well). If we need more mods, or like more, we can just stick another nice weapon on our fav barb and there we go. But it is just an opinion. On the other hand, damage output is important, more now than in the past patches (<1.10), but it seems, also checking the boards (and based on my modest experience, mostly pvm), that some mods prove really useful to melee chars, deadly strike, crit strike, open wounds and many-a-time-celebrated Crushing Blow. One of the best 2h weap rw options, BotD, lacks them all. Why not couple that with another weapon providing us with those ? It is an interesting possibility.
Trigger cb with your Death/LastWish+Gore and then hit with consistent damage (and proportional leech) with your botd/Grief (this also ds). Not too bad.
Still, using range can be smart, after all it is nice to poke enemies with your range 5 stick while they try to close in and get impaled in the process :grin:
I am using a frenzy barb right now, so i had to use 2 weapons, but if I had to build a ww, I don't know what I would choose. I guess I would dump ctc effects cause they are not triggered by ww (is it still so in 1.11 ?)...
As I like Paladins as well though, I'd probably try to stick some auras on my barb. Beast/Doom woot !
:laugh: Bye
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