Best dagger for a poison dagger necro?
- Thread starter chickenhed
- Start date
chickenhed
New member
Llathias said:i'm glad that the information helped
about the calculation, i could not get your result. let's do it step by step so someone can correct me if i'm doing something wrong...
first, Porius seems to have made a mistake by calculating the skill damage. +800% damage comes from synergies, which makes it 900% of the listed damage. at lvl 20, that's 4860-5229 (5044.5 avg) dmg for 9.6 seconds (blackbogs gives +5 to pdagger, but i don't have access to the dmg at lvl 25).
avg dmg/sec: 525.47, duration: 9.6s
Blackbog's
dmg/sec: 48.8, duration: 10s
Perfect Emerald
dmg/sec: 14.29, duration: 7s
Tal rune
dmg/sec: 15, duration: 5s
Total dmg/sec (we add all up): 603.56
Average duration of Blackbog's+Tal+Emerald: 7.33s
Total duration with pdagger duration added: 16.93s
Total dmg: 10220.3
of note is that, if we were to take out Tal from the setup, we'd have:
Total dmg/sec: 588.56
Average duration of Blackbog's+Emerald: 8.5s
Total duration with pdagger duration added: 18.1s
Total dmg: 10653.9
with only Blackbog's (Tal and Emerald removed):
Total dmg/sec: 574.27
Total duration: 19.6s
Total dmg: 11255.7 (1035.4 higher from the initial setup)
these numbers might be off by a tiny bit since i don't know where and how the game rounds numbers. i also used the average dmg from pdagger, Porios had used min dmg.
Edit: you cannot have both a Tal rune and a Perfect Emerald in Blackbog's Sharp. although a Cinquedeas can get 3 sockets, elite items will only get 1 socket from Larzuk.
the key point of confusion is what is additve, and what is averaged. Porius said:
"the damage per frame (or second) is added, then the poison duration from non-skill poison sources are averaged, and then the skill poison damage is added on."
so in essence he added the DURATIONS together, and averaged the damage of items and then added it together with the average damage of PD. is this not the correct way of doing it?
EDIT: sorry guys i was doing it wrong. i was adding the durations of the items and not averaging it. misread on my part. thanks for the clarification!
Quickdeath
New member
Verrry interesting.
So poison dagger damage always greatly increases overall poison damage (per strike). However, Pois Dagger is best added on top of a single high damage rate, long duration poison source like Backbog's.
According to these calculations, there is almost no incentive to have multiple poison damage charms or multiple perfect emeralds in a weapon. Example: two perfect emeralds have the same average damage and average duration as one perfect emerald? Or am I totally confused?
So poison dagger damage always greatly increases overall poison damage (per strike). However, Pois Dagger is best added on top of a single high damage rate, long duration poison source like Backbog's.
According to these calculations, there is almost no incentive to have multiple poison damage charms or multiple perfect emeralds in a weapon. Example: two perfect emeralds have the same average damage and average duration as one perfect emerald? Or am I totally confused?
Llathias said:
So as not to confuse some readers...
Elite (even Normal or exceptional) White/Plain items will get more than 1 socket from Larzuk, it depends on the ilvl of the item. If it reaches a certain level, it automatically gets the max number of sockets possible for that base item. If lower, it gets 1 socket less, AFAIK.
On the other hand, Unique items will always get just 1 socket from Larzuk, no matter what item base that is as long as it is a unique, or set, item.
BTW, going back to the topic...
I was wondering why not just use P Nova, chickenhed?
I read that you want to deal the poison first, then let your Minions/Merc do the rest... wouldn't P Nova do that? Just wondering so that if this strategy is better, I'll use it for my poison/summoner.
--maxgerin
unless the poison damage rate (per time) of a source is incredibly high, a low duration poison source reduces the overall damage. however, keep in mind that we're calculating the damage at the end of 19.6 sec, which, usually we don't wait for during normal gameplay.Quickdeath said:
i believe that 2 emeralds deal 200 dmg in 7 seconds. the explanation at the top of this thread (following Gems effects Stackable-Note) wasn't so clear for me.
ah, yes, that should've read Unique. sorry, my mistake. no idea why i said Elite. Blackbog's is not even Elite, it's Exceptional!maxgerin said:
Harleyquin
New member
I built a poison/summon hybrid character purely around the use of Blackbog's. Besides the mad increase in skills the key to the dagger's eliteness is hit slows target! Couple this with clay golem and decrepify and Baal will do absolutely nothing but wince and bleed if surrounded by skeletons.
The 9666-10k poison dagger damage is an added plus!:uhhuh:
The 9666-10k poison dagger damage is an added plus!:uhhuh:
chickenhed
New member
maxgerin said:So as not to confuse some readers...
Elite (even Normal or exceptional) White/Plain items will get more than 1 socket from Larzuk, it depends on the ilvl of the item. If it reaches a certain level, it automatically gets the max number of sockets possible for that base item. If lower, it gets 1 socket less, AFAIK.
On the other hand, Unique items will always get just 1 socket from Larzuk, no matter what item base that is as long as it is a unique, or set, item.
BTW, going back to the topic...
I was wondering why not just use P Nova, chickenhed?
I read that you want to deal the poison first, then let your Minions/Merc do the rest... wouldn't P Nova do that? Just wondering so that if this strategy is better, I'll use it for my poison/summoner.
--maxgerin
the reason i didnt want to use Pnova is because i like the idea of stabbin and runnin away and watchin bosses and monsters die
however you do bring up a good practical point. is there ANY real practical advantage to using pdagger insead than pnova, guys?
Harleyquin thanks for the advice on your character. interesting stuff!
chickenhed said:
No. Nova hits lots of targets and does a lot more damage per second than dagger, too.
Well, okay, there is one instance: If you're using a Venom Weapon (TalDolMal) You can use the charges to synergize poison dagger. Which allows you to have a decent poison skill for only 20 skill points, which means you can make a working hybrid.
chickenhed
New member
Nightfish said:
oh....
well thats dissapointing. ah well. gonna do it anyway
NSXdreamer
New member
There is no reason you can't do both. Death's web on one hand and bog on the other, both with trang parts of course.
chickenhed
New member
maxgerin said:If you will be so kind to give me a Death's Web, NSX, I'll be very glad to try that build.
--maxgerin
lol i was just thinking that. deaths web, iirc, is one of the hardest items in d2 to find.
NSXdreamer
New member
maxgerin said:If you will be so kind to give me a Death's Web, NSX, I'll be very glad to try that build.
--maxgerin
Heh, you are about a week late, I've already quit d2 and took it off my HD.
chickenhed
New member
Kitriara said:
but no way to make it more useful than pnova.....
heh, im still bothered. id love to make a pdagger necro that is actually a strong build, and not just a "fun build cause im bored" build
Yeah, I did calculate the damage incorrectly, but the thought were correct.
As to what would happen if you had a weapon that had multiple poison sources:
Let's say you have a dagger with 3 Perfect Emeralds, and a poison dagger that did 5000 damage over 10 seconds (this is probably impossible, but the math is easier). You then have 300 point over 7 seconds, or 42.86 damage/second from your weapon. The PDagger skill is 500 damage/sec. Therefore the total rate of damage is 542.86 damage/second. The rates add up to 17 seconds, so now you have a total of 9228.6 damage over the course of the poisoning.
Now, just for fun, we can compare the same thing with a Blackbog's socketed with a PEmerald. The weapon has 488 damage over 10 seconds. The Emerald gives 100 damage over 7 seconds. This gives a rate of 63.09 damage/second. The duration is averaged, which comes to 8.5 seconds. Add in the PDagger exampled above, and you get 563.09 damage/second for 18.5 seconds, or 10,417 damage total.
If you go with a TAL Rune, your rate is 63.8 damage, but the duration is now 7.5 seconds. The total damage will be 9866.5 per strike.
Hope this helps!
Porius
As to what would happen if you had a weapon that had multiple poison sources:
Let's say you have a dagger with 3 Perfect Emeralds, and a poison dagger that did 5000 damage over 10 seconds (this is probably impossible, but the math is easier). You then have 300 point over 7 seconds, or 42.86 damage/second from your weapon. The PDagger skill is 500 damage/sec. Therefore the total rate of damage is 542.86 damage/second. The rates add up to 17 seconds, so now you have a total of 9228.6 damage over the course of the poisoning.
Now, just for fun, we can compare the same thing with a Blackbog's socketed with a PEmerald. The weapon has 488 damage over 10 seconds. The Emerald gives 100 damage over 7 seconds. This gives a rate of 63.09 damage/second. The duration is averaged, which comes to 8.5 seconds. Add in the PDagger exampled above, and you get 563.09 damage/second for 18.5 seconds, or 10,417 damage total.
If you go with a TAL Rune, your rate is 63.8 damage, but the duration is now 7.5 seconds. The total damage will be 9866.5 per strike.
Hope this helps!
Porius
chickenhed said:but no way to make it more useful than pnova.....
heh, im still bothered. id love to make a pdagger necro that is actually a strong build, and not just a "fun build cause im bored" build
Well, no. Poison Nova is a Level 30 skill, and Poison Dagger is a level 6 skill. The nova will do more damage per second, and will hit more targets at once. However, 500+ damage/second isn't too terribly weak, and you can certainly have more than one creature poisoned at a time.
I certainly plan on having a Daggermancer sometime in the future.
Porius
NSXdreamer
New member
They aren't that different really (or no difference besides equiptment), you can easily refit a nova into a dagger, or vice versa. Pdagger is how I got mine through level 30, along with 1 pt in raise skeleton.
