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Depends if you need resists. Do you run CS and Baal? Then go for the safety UM version. If you run cows, you won't really need max res.

As u mentioned: unsocketing is easy and I wouldn't wait for anything perfect to drop in the near future. Go for Um rune and replace it when you feel you're more than safe and can swap resists for DMG.
 
Agreed. Um for now, but depending on the target. If it's mainly something like Cows, forget about that and go with an ias jewel if that helps you reach a breakpoint, a lightning facet if you can spare it, a Shael if you need more fhr to reach a breakpoint, ...
 
Has anyone ever tried a FoH-based Paladin as a MF-character? Out of curiosity, i made one. The results are surprisingly good, though not stellar. I targeted Pindle and AT. Some observations:

-It is kind of hard to get much of MF out of him; i'm running with ~400 and i'm not exactly sure if i'm capable of switching too much gear around. With that being said, i'm running with sub-optimal gear to begin with since i'm not too keen on actually investing too much on him.
-The FoH itself is somewhat of a non-factor, the holy bolts are more important. They are unresistable magic damage, meaning that the immunite of Plague Bearers aren't of concern. Mine does about 2.3k damage, and i'm still 3 points short of maxing HB. Holy Bolt itself is very effective, dealing ~4k damage. The bolts are slow though.
-The character is quite safe. Max block and max resistances, though merc dies very often. This is most likely because of my very low level of 78. Also, no CC to interfere with the charge hurts.
-The targeting of FoH is very awkward. When trying to pick up items, open chests or really interact with the world in any way causes the poor Paladin to cast the FoH at the most nearby target.

Chaos Sanctuary is doable since the knights are undead. Venom Lords are tough. Maybe he could run with another aura, since the lightning damage isn't too important (though it helps, and Pindle dies to 2-3 hits from it along with all of his goons.) I guess you could target Mausoleum with him too, though it is a poor area to run.

No real benchmarks, sorry. Anyway, merry christmas/happy holidays to everyone.
 
Has anyone ever tried a FoH-based Paladin as a MF-character? Out of curiosity, i made one. The results are surprisingly good, though not stellar. I targeted Pindle and AT. Some observations:

-It is kind of hard to get much of MF out of him; i'm running with ~400 and i'm not exactly sure if i'm capable of switching too much gear around. With that being said, i'm running with sub-optimal gear to begin with since i'm not too keen on actually investing too much on him.
-The FoH itself is somewhat of a non-factor, the holy bolts are more important. They are unresistable magic damage, meaning that the immunite of Plague Bearers aren't of concern. Mine does about 2.3k damage, and i'm still 3 points short of maxing HB. Holy Bolt itself is very effective, dealing ~4k damage. The bolts are slow though.
-The character is quite safe. Max block and max resistances, though merc dies very often. This is most likely because of my very low level of 78. Also, no CC to interfere with the charge hurts.
-The targeting of FoH is very awkward. When trying to pick up items, open chests or really interact with the world in any way causes the poor Paladin to cast the FoH at the most nearby target.

Chaos Sanctuary is doable since the knights are undead. Venom Lords are tough. Maybe he could run with another aura, since the lightning damage isn't too important (though it helps, and Pindle dies to 2-3 hits from it along with all of his goons.) I guess you could target Mausoleum with him too, though it is a poor area to run.

No real benchmarks, sorry. Anyway, merry christmas/happy holidays to everyone.
I've been waiting my whole life to be asked this question



These were the earliest AT runs with my FoHer (about 100 in, so you can see how bad I am at picking up items and dealing with the casting delays). EDIT: One of these videos is apparently 7k runs in. Wow. Shows my gear, at the time as well

I've reached lvl 96 (95.8, I think?) with that FoHer and my more recent, decked out FoHer (using 1.07 gear, beta runewords, etc.) is around lvl 95.

I will reiterate what you said and something I have said many many times regarding this character that makes it a lot more powerful than at first glance: When targeting a moving monster (ie the unique monster itself) it will be hit by the bolts being released by it as well as the lightning attack, thus leading to 1-hit KOs on most of them. You can see this occur several times in my videos.

You will also want to learn the timing to spam FoH and HB in between during the casting delay to maximize kill-speed. Of course, the merc gets in the way of this but that just means after you teleport you need to step to the side which isn't a big deal.

I actually use less MF but it's partly because I play HC and partly because I just like having really high res, life and fcr (and dmg!). Beta CtA helps with this, too.

FoHer is effective (ie usable, but slower/less MF than blizz sorc, hammerdin, etc.) in AT, mausoleum, CS, pindle and a few other places.

edit2: In the faster video, you will see I often decide to FoH at the invaders instead of the undead bosspacks since the holy bolts will take them out, and in some instances I make the educated guess that since a monster ran to a wall and started attacking instead of moving I should FoH the monster beside them (a minion, usually) so that the HB spray will kill the bosspack, since each HB typically does more dmg than FoH even with conviction + synergies + -lite res since the immunity was broken
 
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Thanks a lot for the comprehensive reply, and the video! I enjoy using FoH, the bolt effect is quite cool, and powerful too. I tried using Sanctuary instead of Conviction when tackling Pindle; but the knocback effect seems to be too unreliable.

I remember reading from AB that the Holy Bolt for the primary target will always travel towards your character; thus the knocback may actually be detrimental in some cases.
 
Thanks a lot for the comprehensive reply, and the video! I enjoy using FoH, the bolt effect is quite cool, and powerful too. I tried using Sanctuary instead of Conviction when tackling Pindle; but the knocback effect seems to be too unreliable.

I remember reading from AB that the Holy Bolt for the primary target will always travel towards your character; thus the knocback may actually be detrimental in some cases.
ya that's probably true. I also wonder if they can be knocked back into the other bolts, but I'm thinking it's negligible since it's at most one bolt very specifically timed every 2 seconds, at best.
 
Do you guys use Valkry on your Lightning Javazons, or is a merc (act2 might for me to kill LIs) enough? with my + gear, I would have a Level 11 Valkry. Of course I would have to invest 4 points into it, taking away from the synergies of LF and CS. The lightning skills do tons of damage already, so I am wondering if the Valkry at level 11 would help tank and kill LIs and be worth the 4 points I miss out on damage.
 
@Jamie, I play HC, so I religiously use Valkyrie (and Decoy) with all of my Zons.

Consider potential stair traps (Throne of Destruction and Secret Cow Level portal spring immediately to mind): With only Zon and merc entering, there's a 50% chance of each being attacked by every monster there. With a Valkyrie in the mix, that chance drops to 33 1/3%. Immediately cast a Decoy. Now the probability of Zon, merc or Valkyrie being attacked drops below 25%, due to Threat Factor considerations. (Characters, mercs (except Rogues), and Valkyries have Threat Factor 11; the Decoy is Threat Factor 14, so many monsters will switch their attention to the Decoy.)

The Decoy will also increase your damage. Because monsters cluster around the Decoy, the chance of Piercing multiple targets increases significantly.

I could write a book...
 
My zons often don't keep their merc alive, but have a maxed valk instead. She doesn't kill that well, but she can tank much more damage. Also, if the merc is dead, you have to go back to town, but it needs just a second to get back the valk.
 
@Jamie, I play HC, so I religiously use Valkyrie (and Decoy) with all of my Zons.

Consider potential stair traps (Throne of Destruction and Secret Cow Level portal spring immediately to mind): With only Zon and merc entering, there's a 50% chance of each being attacked by every monster there. With a Valkyrie in the mix, that chance drops to 33 1/3%. Immediately cast a Decoy. Now the probability of Zon, merc or Valkyrie being attacked drops below 25%, due to Threat Factor considerations. (Characters, mercs (except Rogues), and Valkyries have Threat Factor 11; the Decoy is Threat Factor 14, so many monsters will switch their attention to the Decoy.)

The Decoy will also increase your damage. Because monsters cluster around the Decoy, the chance of Piercing multiple targets increases significantly.

I could write a book...

Very useful information! I always wondered what the calculations were for determining the monster's agro. Do you happen to know a place to find that information? I have never came across it in my 15+ years of playing and am astonished that I somehow never knew about the "threat factor" haha.


I play softcore and with the CS/LF Zon, it takes almost to 99 just to finish maxing skills and prereqs. But the damage is already so strong with the Amazon that I don't think she really needs all of them max'd to be able to play softcore single player. It will take up 4 of my skills to get it, I am level 83 || to 84 and at 84 I will have 2 skills to place. So I would have to wait until level 86 to get the Valk.

The Valkry will be level 11 with my gear (Griffons/Titans/+2 Amulet/BK Ring/Vipermagi/Spirit Shield(hopefully can change vMagi and maybe spirit one day)/+1 Passive /w 12%FHR GC.

Is level 11 Valkry strong enough to tank and help out?

My Merc is very useful he has Eth GP Insight which keeps my mana pool full, Spirit Forged Linked Mail w/ 2x 3x%ED Jewels in it(That will become Treachery or Fortitude soon) and a Vamp Gaze. So if level 11 Valkry is good enough, the combo of her and merc and decoy should keep me plenty safe. As of now, the only way I really get in danger is if I trap myself against a wall and can't recover from hits fast enough to clear them out of the way.
 
@Jamie, I play HC, so I religiously use Valkyrie (and Decoy) with all of my Zons.

Consider potential stair traps (Throne of Destruction and Secret Cow Level portal spring immediately to mind): With only Zon and merc entering, there's a 50% chance of each being attacked by every monster there. With a Valkyrie in the mix, that chance drops to 33 1/3%. Immediately cast a Decoy. Now the probability of Zon, merc or Valkyrie being attacked drops below 25%, due to Threat Factor considerations. (Characters, mercs (except Rogues), and Valkyries have Threat Factor 11; the Decoy is Threat Factor 14, so many monsters will switch their attention to the Decoy.)

The Decoy will also increase your damage. Because monsters cluster around the Decoy, the chance of Piercing multiple targets increases significantly.

I could write a book...

Very useful information! I always wondered what the calculations were for determining the monster's agro. Do you happen to know a place to find that information? I have never came across it in my 15+ years of playing and am astonished that I somehow never knew about the "threat factor" haha.


I play softcore and with the CS/LF Zon, it takes almost to 99 just to finish maxing skills and prereqs. But the damage is already so strong with the Amazon that I don't think she really needs all of them max'd to be able to play softcore single player. It will take up 4 of my skills to get it, I am level 83 || to 84 and at 84 I will have 2 skills to place. So I would have to wait until level 86 to get the Valk.

The Valkry will be level 11 with my gear (Griffons/Titans/+2 Amulet/BK Ring/Vipermagi/Spirit Shield(hopefully can change vMagi and maybe spirit one day)/+1 Passive /w 12%FHR GC.

Is level 11 Valkry strong enough to tank and help out?

My Merc is very useful he has Eth GP Insight which keeps my mana pool full, Spirit Forged Linked Mail w/ 2x 3x%ED Jewels in it(That will become Treachery or Fortitude soon) and a Vamp Gaze. So if level 11 Valkry is good enough, the combo of her and merc and decoy should keep me plenty safe. As of now, the only way I really get in danger is if I trap myself against a wall and can't recover from hits fast enough to clear them out of the way.
 
Very useful information! I always wondered what the calculations were for determining the monster's agro. Do you happen to know a place to find that information? I have never came across it in my 15+ years of playing and am astonished that I somehow never knew about the "threat factor" haha.

The only place I've found information about Threat Factor is in the fourth post of Othin's monumental Mirror, Mirror at the wall …, from 2005. Threat Factor is only part of monster AI threat assessment, a complex subject which cannot be crammed into a calculator (unlike, for example, damage :D), and certainly seems to be almost totally ignored.

My Merc is very useful he has Eth GP Insight which keeps my mana pool full, Spirit Forged Linked Mail w/ 2x 3x%ED Jewels in it(That will become Treachery or Fortitude soon) and a Vamp Gaze. So if level 11 Valkry is good enough, the combo of her and merc and decoy should keep me plenty safe.

I completely concur. I have two "Furyzons" and neither has more than one point in any LF synergy; they both have maxed Poison and Plague Javelin instead. I also have three Strikers (maxed Charged Strike and Lightning Strike), two of whom also have maxed Poison and Plague, and don't find their Lightning damage wanting.
 
The only place I've found information about Threat Factor is in the fourth post of Othin's monumental Mirror, Mirror at the wall …, from 2005. Threat Factor is only part of monster AI threat assessment, a complex subject which cannot be crammed into a calculator (unlike, for example, damage :D), and certainly seems to be almost totally ignored.



I completely concur. I have two "Furyzons" and neither has more than one point in any LF synergy; they both have maxed Poison and Plague Javelin instead. I also have three Strikers (maxed Charged Strike and Lightning Strike), two of whom also have maxed Poison and Plague, and don't find their Lightning damage wanting.

I was wondering what would be the best way to allow a lightning zon to take out lightning immunes. I sometimes use plague jav and another similar one to throw in there while my merc is fighting them and then I'll start jabbing. How well do the poison java skills work if you go half and half with lightning and poison?
 
IMO and IME, brilliantly. (I strongly urge you to consider a build like this to utilize the Thunderstroke you mentioned a while back.)

I do have a mediocre (I think) pair of T-Strokes, but I don't even have it on my Zon and didn't even get the stats high enough to use them. I have like 37 stats left, so I could place them to use tstroke.

What I have been using is a 200% Titans and a lower resist charges wand on weapon switch to help break immunes. I use Lightning Fury so much and love it so much, that I chose to go with Titan's as my main weapon. I use LF way more than CS because of the range and mass spreading of damage. I couldn't see myself using anything else, unless I found some awesome rare javs with +4/5 and IAS or ones that had good stats and replenished.

The whole unique Balrog Spear weapon and a Tiamat's is a really cool idea though. Could throw them or jab with them and do a lot of elemental and physical damage to take care of lightning immunes.

That link you sent me was cool and the poison damage was in the 50k+ range, which is crazy. Maybe I will try that, but I would still have to throw ( could use titans still I guess) and I like having the high lightning damage, as long as I have a method to kill the lightning immunes that are very problematic. I am finding that a lot of them I can lower resist wand and break the immunities.

How doe Lower Resist Wand compare to Infinity when it comes to breaking lightning immunes? I have only been able to find a level 2 LR charges wand so far. But I am continue searching for a higher one.

The decision on whether to have the LR wand on switch or the balrog spears and tiamats for elemental damage would be tough. It would come down to how fast the balrogs/Tiamat killed Lightning Immunes. If those along with Merc killed them fast, I wouldn't need to bother with LR wand when that still leaves some LI from breaking immunity.

I am more likely to add one to Valkry and the prereqz along the way and have a level 11 Valkry and Decoy to help fight LI and help keep monsters off my back, than I am to spend all of that on the poison damage. One day I may try both out, since tokens are quite easy to come by and it's always a piece of cake to switch skills/stats/builds around.
 
@Jamie, I expressed myself poorly. :oops: I think your Furyzon is fine as is with the addition of Decoy and Valkyrie. I just meant to suggest that you might consider a second Zon using CS, LS and the Poison skills in order to utilize your TStroke.

Since you have a Might merc, your 200% Titan's is actually a splendid source of Physical damage against LIs, because LF always hits whatever target you click lock. (It can be blocked, but most monsters don't have the capability.) And Pierce makes LF-for-physical-damage a multitarget attack. I've built a lot of Javazons who utilize this quirk of the game, including my Fending Mistress o' Minions sisters and a "Bramble" wearing Plaguezon.
 
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