[2011] Spirit Tournament [by Wolron]

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

I think those additions will make it a lot more reasonable.

The best str charms are actually the large charms (one of the very few things they are best at) you can get 5 str on a large charm, so you could get more like 60 points of str out of half of your pack. of course that is pretty unlikely, but that with some str gear certainly makes things a little more reasonable for a melee character at least.

You could also consider just allowing 1 out of 5 or 10 points spent to be put in str, but I don't think it is absolutely necessary. I think it is very playable either way.

The nice thing about ethereal items is the str requirements will be less at least, and you can always socket items with hel or -15% jewels.

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

Comments on Strength:

Lets see about a barbarian:

Strength starts at 30.

I expect that charms will be sought after to improve strength. If you dedicate half of your backpack to those, you could get a maximum of 40 more strength points. (best charms seem to give 6 for grand)

Strength mods on equipment will be important, but alas, equipment will be hard to find and it may not last long. I hope to find a three socket helm and a four socket armor and put a perfect amethyst in them for an additional 70 strength points. With 30 more strength points on rings/amulets/other equipment mods. Let's see, that is an added 100 for this paragraph.

Alcor gives 15 more if you last through Hell act 3.

Well, that would be strength of 185. Should be more than I typically have on any tournament character.

Of course, this is the max that I can think of. Knowing the expertise out there, I am sure you can show me how to do better. Also (of course), I will not be able to accomplish all of this with a real character (7 perfect amethysts are hard to come by, not to mention the socket equipment). But, hey, that is the challenge!:whistling:

I guess you are right to a point.

However, that would require a melee character or a high strength requiring character to invest alot of effort just to up their strength. Whereas, a sorc for example, doesn't need to use that much effort and can focus on +life, skills items etc etc. Seems to put melee characters at a disadvantage straight away.

Get what im trying to say?

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

I agree that the general problem with this tournament idea is that melee is all but impossible (aside from things like a tesladin, which don't actually rely on melee damage... but there aren't many of those classes, in the end). That difficulty is coupled with the fact that most non-melee builds from melee-based classes are much harder untwinked under the best of circumstances (hammerdins, FoH, singing barbs), and with these equipment restrictions will be even less likely to succeed.

So anyway... Wolron, if you don't come up with some way to adjust the strength rule to make melee more viable, I hope you'll play a barbarian just to show us

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

skunkbelly said:
I agree that the general problem with this tournament idea is that melee is all but impossible (aside from things like a tesladin, which don't actually rely on melee damage... but there aren't many of those classes, in the end). That difficulty is coupled with the fact that most non-melee builds from melee-based classes are much harder untwinked under the best of circumstances (hammerdins, FoH, singing barbs), and with these equipment restrictions will be even less likely to succeed.

So anyway... Wolron, if you don't come up with some way to adjust the strength rule to make melee more viable, I hope you'll play a barbarian just to show us

Well, I decided to make a test run. I have started a Barbarian just to see if it is even possible. He has gotten through the Blood Moor and cleared out the den of evil. He has played on P8 and bloodied his fists quite a bit. He is just short of level 7. I have not assigned any skills, but I suppose Bash will be a good place to put a point. He has not found any ethereal items yet, but he does proudly wear two rings and an amulet. One of the rings gave him an exhilarating feeling when he put it on. It had +1 to strength, so I guess he is on his way to becoming a Berserker. He has found two charms, one with +14 lightning resist, the other with +1-5 lightning damage. That last one requires level 9 though and he is going to need it when he squares off against Blood Raven. I wonder if I should back off of P8? Nah.:alright:

I suppose a weapon would be nice, but I am not expecting to find one for a while yet. And, when I find it, it will probably wear out pretty quickly.

I think that Blood Raven is the key. Once I dispatch her, I will concentrate on getting a 3 socketed bow and put some good runes in it (RAL-RAL-RAL). She will be able to get me through normal difficulty and by then, I will be well on my way to getting 100 strength so that I can use that boss weapon that Anya will personalize for me. Yes, this is going to be .... possible.:crazyeyes:

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

I guess everyone should reconcile themselves that the theme of this tourny involves playing with ethereal items - and throughout much of the game, lower level ethereal items

Its a shame that some bows and xbows are never ethereal. Bow-wielding dexazons and xbow-wielding Hunter Druids would have been fun.

Casters -Si
Ranged - No (except BFury 'Sin?)
Summoners - Si
Melee
- Fast multistrike: No
- Big stick: No
- Elemental/magic strike: possible when damage not tied to weapon damage, but very difficult

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

My test run continues. I am running the countess in Normal difficulty. I have a rare boots with auto repair; a magic small shield with auto repair; a fine scepter with two ruby chips in it; a bardich;a fanged helm with +3 sword mastery; and two rare rings. I still have not found an ethereal belt or armor. The bowyer merc is well equipped and killing freely with her hunters bow equipped with three ruby chips.

I have edited the first post again. This time there are three changes:

(1) A note that says to discard or sell all starting equipment.
(2) A change in the strength limitation to allow the attribute points acquired in act 4 of each difficulty level to be used in strength if you like. The story line will be changed to justify this. Tyreal has promised to provide strength at this location if you need it. NOTE: Since strength has a scoring penalty, some characters will decide to ignore this opportunity.
(3) The countess running will have limits in NM and HELL similar to the 5 RAL limit in normal difficulty. I look for advice on what those limits should be because I have not played NM or HELL with 1.13 and do not know what would be a similar cutoff for those difficulty levels.

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

Wolron said:
(3) The countess running will have limits in NM and HELL similar to the 5 RAL limit in normal difficulty. I look for advice on what those limits should be because I have not played NM or HELL with 1.13 and do not know what would be a similar cutoff for those difficulty levels.

Well, the highest NM Countess can drop is Ko, and the highest Hell Countess can *reasonably* drop is Ist (she can actually go up to Lo, but runes above Ist are not part of her "special" drop).

I would suggest limiting NM Countess runs to 5 runes Ort or higher(i.e., 5 runes that couldn't have dropped from the Normal Countess), and Hell Countess to 5 runes Fal or higher (5 that couldn't have dropped from NM Countess). But that's just one idea, and others might have good notions as well...

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

Here is a signup table. If you are game for a challenge, come on in! I decided to accept Skunkbelly's challenge and go with the Barbarian. Oh well, I can try another character type when this poor soul dies for good.

[b][U][I]ALIVE[/I][/U][/b]
Forum          Name            Class       Level   Act       WP       Score
Wolron         Spirit_Bull     Barbarian    17      A1   Black Marsh   243
[B][I][U]DEAD/RETIRED[/U][/I][/B]

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

Well, the highest NM Countess can drop is Ko, and the highest Hell Countess can *reasonably* drop is Ist (she can actually go up to Lo, but runes above Ist are not part of her "special" drop).

I would suggest limiting NM Countess runs to 5 runes Ort or higher(i.e., 5 runes that couldn't have dropped from the Normal Countess), and Hell Countess to 5 runes Fal or higher (5 that couldn't have dropped from NM Countess). But that's just one idea, and others might have good notions as well...

That notion works for me! I went ahead and put this in the original post, but since noone will be getting there for a while, we can modify that if someone sees problems with it.

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

I do not understand the purpose of the "run the Countess a bunch of times, but everything else is single pass" rule. It seems to me that it would keep out some of our more committed tournament players to no particularly transparent end.

I also do not see the need for a proliferation of permissible non-ethereal equipment. If the purpose of the tournament is to use ethereal items, why create long lists of non-ethereal items that are allowed? The three personalization quests seem a reasonable exception, if you want exceptions, and would require considerable judgment regarding which three items to keep.

I do not see the need to shape rules around the demands of certain melee attacks. If the ruleset makes a certain type of character largely impossible, then the proper response is to avoid selecting that type of character, not to demand that the rules be changed. In some tournaments, the non-melee damage is restricted or prohibited in order to maintain the spirit of the equipment restrictions. In this tournament, I see nothing wrong with pure melee damage being difficult and unpopular due to the equipment restrictions.

-----------------------------

With all that said, if I happened to find the Spectral Shard in this tournament, I would love to use it. It is one of my favorite items anyways, and it fits the theme well. I would probably consider using a personalization quest on it, just to satiate my attachment to it.

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

I do not understand the purpose of the "run the Countess a bunch of times, but everything else is single pass" rule. It seems to me that it would keep out some of our more committed tournament players to no particularly transparent end.

I agree with this 100%.

I would just make it complete single pass play only. No need to limit tourney participation (those people who only play single pass), for just running the countress a few times.

Especially now with 1.13, rune drops has increased, so in a way, running the countress is pointless.

PS. I do like the new strength change rule. That seems a little more helpful for melee characters. Although i still think they are still at a disadvantage over ranged or caster type characters.

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

I also do not see the need for a proliferation of permissible non-ethereal equipment. If the purpose of the tournament is to use ethereal items, why create long lists of non-ethereal items that are allowed?...

Many of us were commenting on The Spirit theme and what might be allowed. This wasn't named the "ethereal items only" tournament

I do not see the need to shape rules around the demands of certain melee attacks. If the ruleset makes a certain type of character largely impossible, then the proper response is to avoid selecting that type of character, not to demand that the rules be changed.

Again, this was not named the No Melee Tournament. And a large part of planning any tournament is making sure that the balance of the game is not too extreme and that the game play is not tedious. That is what we have been discussing. Ultimately, everyone will decide to "vote" by whether they decide to participate and then whether they actually stick with the tournament.

Just try organizing a No Skills, Naked, No charms, No Merc /P8 tournament in which your character is not allowed to return to town once they've left -and you'll understand the need for "Balance."

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

(1) I was excited about the notion of a "spirit" theme that implied limited strength and ethereal items. If the theme is merely a matter of wordplay, forgive me; in that case, I retract my comments regarding exceptions for non-ethereal items. At any rate, my point stands: the tournament creator need not feel pressured to make myriad exceptions to the ethereal items rule.

(2) "Balance" does not demand making allowances for every possible build that participants could envision. In a "bows only" tournament, people don't complain that there is no "balance" because they can't use Blizzard or Whirlwind or whatnot. The fact that a few builds relying primarily on weapon-based physical damage will be challenging does not destroy the tournament.

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

I agree with this 100%.

I would just make it complete single pass play only. No need to limit tourney participation (those people who only play single pass), for just running the countress a few times.

as an eternal enemy of single pass restrictions, I would point out here that if the goal is to not limit tournament participation, making it single pass only prevents those who like re-running from playing, whereas allowing re-running does not prevent people playing single pass

i like the sound of this, but i am off all D2 apart from the skunky until major exams in april (veeeeeeeerrrryy major exams - i am gonna stick to this!)

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

as an eternal enemy of single pass restrictions, I would point out here that if the goal is to not limit tournament participation, making it single pass only prevents those who like re-running from playing, whereas allowing re-running does not prevent people playing single pass

i like the sound of this, but i am off all D2 apart from the skunky until major exams in april (veeeeeeeerrrryy major exams - i am gonna stick to this!)

Well at least 90% of all tournaments are single pass, so the majority of people are prefer and play single pass.

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

[b][U][I]ALIVE[/I][/U][/b]
Forum          Name            Class       Level   Act       WP       Score
Wolron         Spirit_Bull     Barbarian    17      A1   Black Marsh   243
Skunkbelly     Spirit-Skunk    Assassin     1       A1   Rogue's Camp    0
[B][I][U]DEAD/RETIRED[/U][/I][/B]

I'm in... won't start until I finish my SUTC character for this round though, or at least make some good progress.

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

im not gonna bang on about this because it has all been said before, but i think if you read what i wrote your response was totally unrelated to it

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

So has this officially started then? I'm a little confused about that.

Also a little clarification...The act 4 strength, can I save up 100 stat points to dump in str, or do I have to actually receive the level up in act 4 to use those points towards strength?

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

[b][U][I]ALIVE[/I][/U][/b]
Forum          Name            Class       Level   Act       WP       Score
Wolron         Spirit_Bull     Barbarian    17      A1   Black Marsh   243
Skunkbelly     Spirit-Skunk    Assassin     1       A1   Rogue's Camp    0
Vang           Spirit_Rod      Druid        1       A1   Rogue's camp    0   
[B][I][U]DEAD/RETIRED[/U][/I][/B]

I'm in with a druid see where this takes me.

 

[Grisu]

Re: Spirit Tournament Plan

Are you allowed to do full clears in the Tower to gain maximum benefit from the runs or should you try to avoid killing any mobs and head straight to the bottom level?

I'm in but I'd like an answer to my question before I start with my char.

[b][U][I]ALIVE[/I][/U][/b]
Forum          Name            Class       Level   Act       WP       Score
Wolron         Spirit_Bull     Barbarian    17      A1   Black Marsh   243
Skunkbelly     Spirit-Skunk    Assassin     1       A1   Rogue's Camp    0
Vang           Spirit_Rod      Druid        1       A1   Rogue's camp    0   
Tupsi          Strangely_Frail Assassin     1       A1   Rogue's camp    0
[B][I][U]DEAD/RETIRED[/U][/I][/B]