Re: The PvP Thread
I will answer on some questions you asked Frozzzen too, I hope you don't mind
I'll start by asking some open questions for everyone: What are you trying to accomplish with any potential changes?
My idea is simply to have better rules that are up-to-date and that reflect current gameplay. Some of the rules are old and some could be more precise. First of all, one rule states: "
No over absorb. Limit 2 items per element with the standard ban on Rising Sun and Black Oak. " Now, my goal is that we define more precisely what is this "over absorb" cause I surely have no idea what that is. 90%+? 95%+? I think we surely might give some hint about what that is, unless that is matter of personal preference so one is able to use 95%+ resist if he doesn't consider it over absorb. We all have some personal limit of "over absorb" like I have 85%+, Nulio 90%+, but that is too chaotic. Let's have at least just a little more precise rule, because now it's almost like it doesn't exist. Or remove it and limit number of absorb items per element so we can use as much absorb as we can with it.
We need simple rules, yes, I agree. We also need rules that we know what are they talking about, and this "no over absorb" sentence gives me zero info about what that even is (unless that is something we define ourselves and use whatever absorb we find fair, even if it is 95%+). It might confuse newer player as much as it confuses me, and I'm not that new player anymore.
For other rules I asked some questions to understand better why do they exist and also suggested some things I find to be better than existing rule.
Curse charges and CtC operate very differently on different classes and that's one good reason to keep the rules as they are - why does a fire sorc or trapper need access to lower resist for example?
They don't NEED access to LR and that is not a question of need in the first place. It's a question of why is that a problem and why is that not allowed. If we limit number of allowed prebuff items to 1, then sorc has a choice: she can use CTA prebuff or Memory prebuff, not both, if she wants to use that lower resist charge. If we totally remove prebuff, then she won't be able to use BO from CTA if she want's to use that lower resist wand, so go ahead.
Also, lower resist is not the only curse charge that exist.
I'm fine if we keep the rules as they are, I just asked why don't we allow those charges. Why to allow? Well, maybe more items are gonna be put into use in pvp world, more strategies maybe, both of them are welcomed. However as I said, if rules remain the same, I have absolutely no problem with it.
I'd actually be quite happy banning all charges, including the sage from HotO.
What is the reason for that? Banning all charges will make the pvp scene even more straightforward (read: boring) and with that you will totally negate usage of some items that are used otherwise here and there. If I put that nature peace ring on barb to use its Oak charges for meat shield or for additional hp, that is called a strategy (at least I call it that way). Same goes with usage of Oak of hoto. Same goes with all animal charges. Removing those charges would be like removing one piece of strategies in pvp world.
But again, I don't know why would you be happy to bann all charges, maybe you know something I'm not aware of
As soon as you remove the limit for certain characters someone's bound to build a paladin that uses an enormous amount of replenish life and charges around with meditation on whenever they get hit.
But similar problem already exists, in a form of ES sorc. If that ES sorc uses 95% ES, in theory she can keep duel going into eternity. Once she got hit, she can escape with 200 fcr and return with full mana for a new round. I can't imagine how hard would be to kill that sorc without poison or OW. Nearly impossible, and there is absolutely nothing that stops her from doing that.
As for the example of a fire sorc that does 18k damage being reduced to 300 PvP damage, I don't see any issues with that at all. An 18k FB implies a 200FCR build, so they already have very high mobility and attack speed, with the potential to easily avoid most attacks, why shouldn't they have to put up with it being possible to heavily reduce their damage? There's a big difference between doing 30 damage and 300 damage per hit. A bone necro with a 6k spirit will do 50 damage to life per hit; should ES above a certain percentage value be banned too?
Well, I see no connection between reducing damage with absorb items and reducing damage with natural spell called Energy Shield. Sorc is the only one that is able to use Energy Shield to her advantage, and all characters are able to use huge amount of absorb to reduce incoming damage.
Also, fireball sorc is top build in pvp world and is not the only one you can absorb. If you use same calculations for, let's say, fire druid, you will notice you turned "lol" build into "lolusuckharmless" build. Probably fireclaw druid is the same. FOH is the same, it's dangerous only if you are under conviction aura, if you are not (like 90% of time?), then you can take huge amount of hits with that kind of absorb, even more if you have at least 1 summon next to you.
Even if we take fireball sorc, one of the strongest builds, into consideration against certain characters, you will notice they are pretty much helpless with that kind of absorb. My barb can take 24 hits from her, my ghost 36. Impossible matches. Bowazon can take 5 hits from her, and bowa is challlenging for fireball sorc even if she dies from 1 hit. With 5 fireball sorc can only turtle until bowa is left with no arrows. Even my vita fireball sorc can take 12 hits from her (unlike 5 like when we were ffa-ing).
Come at me bro, yeah, and all I need to do is put boots on.
So with that kind of absorb fireball sorc is facing 3 nearly impossible matches to win, and she is like top build (bowas and bvcs are common in pvp scene). I don't wanna imagine what would happen with some no-top build. That's why I don't consider 90% absorb to be fair. Also that much absorb encourages defensive and probably passive playing. If sorc needs 24 hits to kill barb or 5 to kill zon, imagine how would she play in that case. Barb and zon players probably wont see her on screen during whole match.
I don't see anything unfair in the current pre-buffing rules, if you want to do it then you can, there isn't anything stopping you, where's the unfairness? Besides, how is using Demon Limb for the AR boost any different to swapping out half your items for a BO boost? The principle remains the same, you're using items that have no other value than for providing a temporary boost to your character in both situations, so how do you arrive at the conclusion that using one item is ok but using 5 isn't?
5 items gonna bring huuge change to your character, while 1 in general won't. So, you are asking where is the difference if I prebuff with only Demon Limb vs if I prebuff with Demon Limb + Bo from helm + dual bkwb + amulet? I believe you already see where is the difference. If not, someone might demonstrate in pvp maybe. That leads us to your question where is unfairness in all of this. Prehaps there is no unfairness at all, perhaps all that is fair. Prebuff with everything you got, why not? It's gonna bring you huge improvement and probably edge over other characters. Maybe there is nothing wrong and unfair with prebuffing, but it might not be fun to battle against 10k hp barb that might seem unkillable. Idea of prebuff rule is to remove that someone can have so much advantage over other characters that are not prebuffed. Now question still remain is it really needed or is it perfectly fine for someone to prebuff his barb or whatever to unkillable amount of hp if he wants to.
You can also ask what is with CTA prebuff and why is that fair if that can possibly bring more change into character than 5 non-cta prebuff items for the other? That's why my idea is to limit cta prebuff for builds that can really use it to raise competition, like lol animal builds. Here goes zon too, although she is not lol build, but will surely be much weaker without cta prebuff and probably won't be competition for more common builds. For question does she really need cta prebuff, my answer is no, not really, but is better for pvp matches if she is able to have that prebuff. But I'll leave word here for someone who is more experienced with zons.
What makes your zon or druid different from any other build that they absolutely have to have a weapon switch? Is it any different to me claiming that my BvC needs to always have dual Um'd Wizardspikes on switch, so I should always prebuff its BO with a beta CtA?
Yes, it's different. Zon is nowhere as strong as BvC is, and BvC doesn't need any more help from prebuffing while zon can surely use some help to be competitive to other common builds. Same goes for some animal builds that are clearly underdogs in nearly any matches and cta prebuff is here to allow them to be more competitive and playable overall. To sum it up, it's not the same if you ask to prebuff already very strong build and to prebuff something that really might use some prebuff to be stronger.
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