The WoT Mafia Game

[Drixx]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

why would Sathoris out himself as a vigilante? Its to gain cred. Its likely that both of you are telling the truth, but it is a WIFOM situation as always in these mafia games

Sathoris has nothing to do with my situation. If he's telling the truth (and there's no reason to believe he isn't), his power is already used up. He loses nothing if we don't believe him and lynch him.

My power; however, hasn't been used up. I have everything to lose by speaking up to save Kestegs. You are dodging responding to my reasoning, which doesn't seem very townie to me.

 

[ThunderCat]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

Short answer, no I don't trust him.

Me neither. See below.

Under that theory, what you do make of the roleblocker reference in #519 coupled with lack of kill the first night?

It does sound like a good idea to have LoZ send in the first NK, just to make sure the mafia gets the most benefit out of it. But unless the blocker, or someone else with a power comes forward, there's no way of knowing just yet.

What is weird is that Cal didn't specify that kestegs' Lover role was anything but vanilla like he did with Loz's role. I was told Loz had a special night kill, but I Wasn't told kestegs had a special lover's ability. This leads me to believe that the extra abilities kestegs and drixx are saying they have are fake claims. and town would have no reason to fake claim.

I think you're reading too much into it. Mods make mistakes too (see the link issue).

The pm says that I [highlight]may[/highlight] choose someone to kill. I'm not required to do so. I would want to target someone I had good reasons to believe was mafia.

My point exactly.

Vote: Drixx

I'll specify another reason at the bottom of this post.

When they were going to lynch you, we were both going to be dead, and I would have been able to pick someone to kill. Since you are pro-town, if I was mafia I would essentially be trading my life for 2 kills by keeping silent.

By speaking up, now the equation changes a bit.

1.) If I'm mafia, why speak up? I just saved your life and put myself at risk of losing my own life AND losing my kill power. If I was mafia, my best play is to keep silent. It's better to get 2 townies killed for my death than to risk getting zero townies killed for my death.

2.) If I'm town, then me speaking up makes sense. It gives the town a [highlight]chance[/highlight] to not kill either of us. It also forces the mafia to kill us because we essentially are trusted townies at that point. I would expect them to kill me first which effectively removes you from the game for a day, then take you out for real the next night. They could go in reverse order and hope I use my power and take out a townie with it, but as I already pointed out, I'm not obligated to use the power and only will do so if there is very strong evidence someone is a mafia.

OK, we get it, you came out to save him. You want a medal for that?

In fact, I challenge the four people currently voting for me: By what logic do you conclude that I am mafia and my actions therefore are consistent with that alignment?

Please do refute my logic, but more importantly give an argument for why I would have revealed myself if was mafia.

To the rest of the town, anyone who votes for me and refuses to or cannot give an adequate explanation for why I would reveal myself if I was mafia ... well you have a list of people to take a good look at tomorrow.

Here's my reasons:
1. I don't trust you to make the right call when it comes to choosing who to kill.
2. You might be a Godfather link to kestegs. That's why you came out. Because mafia cannot afford to loose you if kestegs were to have been lynched.
3. See below.

In either case, I'm back to playing SW:TOR. Hopefully the mafia doesn't succeed in duping the town into doing their work.

You're giving up already? Now that's not very townie of you.

In fact, I'll even make a gesture of goodwill.

Unvote: Bad Ash

Looks to me as a "Here, I'll unvote for you. How about you unvote for me?" thing.


To sum it up, I'm not 100% sure if you're town or scum, or if kestegs is town or scum. But I do know that I don't trust you to make the right call when the times comes.

 

[Kestegs]

It doesn't really matter if drixx is town or not. The fact is that if we don't Lynch him the Mafia will kill me to get both of us and possibly a third. We can't give them that power.

 

[ThunderCat]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

Apologies.

Unvote: Ankeli
Vote: Drixx

 

[Drixx]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

It doesn't really matter if drixx is town or not. The fact is that if we don't Lynch him the Mafia will kill me to get both of us and possibly a third. We can't give them that power.

This is flawed reasoning Kestegs. The mafia knows I'm pro-town, so if they kill you, they hand me an opportunity to take one of them out. I would almost certainly be their next kill to ensure I don't have any chance of taking one of them with me.

As for the several people saying "I don't trust drixx to decide whether and/or whom to kill" ... that's a pretty harsh judgment to make against someone. Sometimes I think folks go a bit too far in these games. You could say "I don't like the odds of that power hitting a mafia" but instead you choose to make it personal and say that you don't trust [highlight]me[/highlight] as a person... and that's frankly outside of the spirit of the game, I think.

You are essentially saying you think I'm too stupid to make a proper decision on whether to use the power and if I use it whom to target. I know nobody used the word "stupid" but the implication is there.

 

[ThunderCat]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

I'm going to assume that the previous post was directed at me. Thus I will reply.

No, I'm just saying I don't trust you, in this game, with this power.

There's nothing personal involved here. This is a game and I don't take anything personal.

 

[Drixx]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

I've thought of a solution to the situation, which I believe is allowable as the rules are currently written.

11) Do not post any information sent to you in a pm, excluding your role PM. That, and only that, you may post if you wish. All other privileged information must be paraphrased in your own words.

This rule gives me permission to post my role pm. There is no prohibition against doing so as a screenshot of it. So, I've made a screenshot and I'm prepared to post it to the thread; however, I believe if CG had thought of that he would have specifically disallowed it, so I am going to wait until 1 hour before the end of the day to give CG time to amend the rule, as I suspect he will.

If he doesn't have a problem with it (and I'll be PMing him a link to this post) then I will post absolute proof of my claims. Then we'll see how much of this lynch train is personal and/or mafia.

 

[Drixx]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

I'm going to assume that the previous post was directed at me. Thus I will reply.

No, I'm just saying I don't trust you, in this game, with this power.

There's nothing personal involved here. This is a game and I don't take anything personal.

If you don't trust me with this power, that is a judgment about [highlight]me[/highlight] whether you want to admit it or not. The only reason to mistrust someone with a power is if you do not believe they are capable of making the right decision with it. And really, there are two decisions involved with it. The first is whether to even use it or not, and I decided the moment I got my role pm to only use it if there was very solid evidence that I would take out scum with it. The second is of course whom to target, and obviously if I used the power the target would be the person who we had strong evidence was mafia.

The only conclusion is that you don't trust me as a person to be responsible with a potentially damaging power. That's as personal as it gets mate.

 

[Drixx]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

@ThunderCat - Your pot shot about me "giving up" was kind of a low blow mate. I've posted my defense, which is very logical and has the added benefit of being true. Now that I've posted the defense, people are no longer saying to lynch me because they believe I'm scum, now the reason has changed to that you all don't trust me as a person to make the right play with the power I have.

That tells me that nobody so far has been able to refute the logic of my actions, but rather than admit being wrong, it has gotten dangerously close to if not into personal attacks to continue the lynch wagon.

If you no longer believe I'm mafia, then it makes very little sense to lynch me. Make the mafia spend their night kill on it. I've already declared that I won't use the power unless the town has a strong mafia candidate (which likely comes from our rolecop), so the mafia would be amazingly inept to let me live beyond tonight or to kill Kestegs and trigger my power. Letting my power have a chance to activate means there's a chance for me to kill a mafia. They simply won't take that chance.

So they'll kill me, and the town will essentially lose kestegs at that point also due to the no vote penalty if I die. If the town lynches me, then the mafia still get kestegs out of the picture tomorrow, but can remove a 3rd town vote by killing someone else in the night.

The only way lynching me makes sense is if one assumes I will recklessly use the role power I have and take out a townie with it. That either makes me stupid or spiteful, neither of which I am.

 

[ThunderCat]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

I've thought of a solution to the situation, which I believe is allowable as the rules are currently written.



This rule gives me permission to post my role pm. There is no prohibition against doing so as a screenshot of it. So, I've made a screenshot and I'm prepared to post it to the thread; however, I believe if CG had thought of that he would have specifically disallowed it, so I am going to wait until 1 hour before the end of the day to give CG time to amend the rule, as I suspect he will.

If he doesn't have a problem with it (and I'll be PMing him a link to this post) then I will post absolute proof of my claims. Then we'll see how much of this lynch train is personal and/or mafia.

So now you're giving the mod an ultimatum?

What you are trying to do is bend a rule to prove or disapprove a claim. It's Caluin Graye's call to be honest.

If you don't trust me with this power, that is a judgment about [highlight]me[/highlight] whether you want to admit it or not. The only reason to mistrust someone with a power is if you do not believe they are capable of making the right decision with it. And really, there are two decisions involved with it. The first is whether to even use it or not, and I decided the moment I got my role pm to only use it if there was very solid evidence that I would take out scum with it. The second is of course whom to target, and obviously if I used the power the target would be the person who we had strong evidence was mafia.

The only conclusion is that you don't trust me as a person to be responsible with a potentially damaging power. That's as personal as it gets mate.

You are entitled to take any comment one makes the way you want to. However, I already explained my actions and the reasoning behind them.

 

[Caluin Graye]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

So, I've made a screenshot and I'm prepared to post it to the thread; however, I believe if CG had thought of that he would have specifically disallowed it, so I am going to wait until 1 hour before the end of the day to give CG time to amend the rule, as I suspect he will.

You're right, I would have. Rule #11 has been updated.

 

[Sathoris]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

Just popping in here before the day ends.

@Goryani, long story short I just really felt he was scum and LoZ flipping scum might have messed up my initial basis of my read on him, but not enough for me to not go through with my plan. I made up my mind to kill him here and I gave Ankeli the benefit of the doubt.

@Drixx. it's not personal at all and frankly you should just ignore it. Turns out I wasn't to be trusted with the vig ability but I used it anyway. And don't post a screenshot of your PM unless you want to be modkilled in every game you played so far. I'd have thought by you would know where the boundaries of modkills lie. Oh and I'm not driving a wagon over you.

Regardless, we've put ourselves in a difficult position. I stand by what I said that Drixx is the best lynch if we handle the lover situation today. At this point we may be forced to. I see we have enough votes to get Drixx lynched, buf if you people decide not to follow through, then my vote on Ankeli might help to secure a numerical advantage in time.

Vote: Ankeli

 

[Drixx]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

So now you're giving the mod an ultimatum?

What you are trying to do is bend a rule to prove or disapprove a claim. It's Caluin Graye's call to be honest.

It is his call, which is why I've not posted the screenshot. I haven't even uploaded it anywhere in case someone knows my photobucket and went to find it. I believe that if he had considered the possibility he would have just added "you may not post a screenshot of your role pm" to the rule, and would like to ensure that if my feeling about that is correct, I stay within the spirit of the rules and give him a chance to close the potential loophole.

It would be fantastic if he lets me post it, although recent posts lead me to believe I'll be lynched anyway.

You are entitled to take any comment one makes the way you want to. However, I already explained my actions and the reasoning behind them.

Your explanation was that you don't trust me to make a good decision if the power were to be activated. I've simply followed the implications of that distrust. If you have a different set of implications or reasoning, I'd like to be able to feel like there's not several people in the game who have that low of a view of me.

It's generally not pleasant when people basically assert that they think you are dumb or spiteful.

 

[ThunderCat]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

Oh my. You sir, are taking things way too seriously.

Can you imagine how Ankeli feels when everyone says they don't trust him? I wonder why he's not in a corner, crying, right now.

 

[Drixx]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

You're right, I would have. Rule #11 has been updated.

Which is why I waited for you to say so and pm'd you about it. I generally don't try to use loopholes in the rules.

@Drixx. it's not personal at all and frankly you should just ignore it. Turns out I wasn't to be trusted with the vig ability but I used it anyway. And don't post a screenshot of your PM unless you want to be modkilled in every game you played so far. I'd have thought by you would know where the boundaries of modkills lie. Oh and I'm not driving a wagon over you.

Regardless, we've put ourselves in a difficult position. I stand by what I said that Drixx is the best lynch if we handle the lover situation today. At this point we may be forced to. I see we have enough votes to get Drixx lynched, buf if you people decide not to follow through, then my vote on Ankeli might help to secure a numerical advantage in time.

Vote: Ankeli

Nobody who has made the comment that they don't trust me has given any explanation for that comment to show how it isn't personal. I would welcome such comments.

But I don't want people to be left with the excuse of "We thought he was mafia" to hide behind. It should be quite clear at this point that it wouldn't make logical sense for a mafia to have taken the actions I have. The folks who keep their vote on me without giving some explanation for how my actions are consistent with being a mafia will warrant a careful looking at.

As will those who have conceded that a mafia is highly unlikely to have taken the actions I have and instead shifted their reason to they don't trust me with the power.

Vote: Ankeli

Sorry Ankeli. I don't see the case against you being all that strong, but you are the only other viable wagon and I would like to actually survive a game at some point here.

 

[Gullik]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

It doesn't really matter if drixx is town or not. The fact is that if we don't Lynch him the Mafia will kill me to get both of us and possibly a third. We can't give them that power.

So instead of the mafia killing you two and a town decided vig kill, you would instead opt for a town lynch and a nightkill on town? This is all assuming that Drixx is town though.

Either he is lying about his lover-induced ability or he is town as far as I see it, and I see that as pretty town as the warder rage is very loreish.

Vote: Ankeli

 

[Drixx]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

Oh my. You sir, are taking things way too seriously.

Can you imagine how Ankeli feels when everyone says they don't trust him? I wonder why he's not in a corner, crying, right now.

You seem to have a hard time knowing when to stop mate.

When you say that you don't trust that someone is townie, you aren't really talking about the person, but their role in the game.

When you say you don't trust someone to use a power in the game, that has nothing to do with their role, and everything to do with them as a person.

There's a clear distinction there. On the one hand you don't trust someone to be telling the truth about their alignment, and in fact mafia would have every motivation to lie about their alignment.

In my case, it can't be non-personal to say you don't trust me with the power. Either you think I am capable of making an intelligent decision about whether to use the power, or you think I am not capable. Or, I suppose, you think I'm spiteful and will just use it against someone who voted for me.

I've already said I won't use it unless we have a good target to use it on ... so I suppose we could go one step further and say you don't even trust me to be telling the truth about that.

Like I said earlier ... if the comment was "I don't think using that power is a good idea because it has much more chance to kill a townie than a mafia" ... that I would have had no problem with.

And just because I'm pointing out that the game has shifted (in my opinion) a bit too personal shouldn't be construed to suggest that I am, how did you say it, in a corner crying to myself? If nothing else was personal, that was certainly a personal pot shot.

 

[Kestegs]

This is Mafia, things are never as they seem. You have to stop taking things personally and you have rolf start looking at things from outside your own perspective.

I really dislike that you even suggested posting a screenshot of your pm, that's a pretty low move. It just brings in more wifom for the town. You really should pm stuff like that to the moderator.

You said you assumed he would change the rule, which makes me think that you knew you would never have to post it, but that you might gain cred for saying you would post it. See....unnecessary wifom.

 

[Drixx]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

This is Mafia, things are never as they seem. You have to stop taking things personally and you have rolf start looking at things from outside your own perspective.

I really dislike that you even suggested posting a screenshot of your pm, that's a pretty low move. It just brings in more wifom for the town. You really should pm stuff like that to the moderator.

You said you assumed he would change the rule, which makes me think that you knew you would never have to post it, but that you might gain cred for saying you would post it. See....unnecessary wifom.

The players seem intent on stringing me up, despite the fact that you and I are paired, that my ability seems very likely to be something given to a townie, and despite the fact that I posted a very solid defense, which nobody seems willing to try and refute.

I don't really have any more ways to defend myself.

And yes, I think someone implying that I'm in the corner crying to myself is probably personal. I also think asserting that I cannot be trusted to use my power in a pro-town way (or decide not to use it as the case may warrant) can only be a judgment upon me as a person.

I have enjoyed playing these games here, and my only criticism really is that some people play very aggressively and don't take the time to think through the implications of what they're saying. And I'm assuming they just haven't thought it through rather than assuming they have and are intentionally saying things like that.

Anyway, I don't know what other defense I can offer than what I have. Nobody seems all that interested in trying to refute it or to provide a logical case for why I would have taken the actions I have if I were mafia.

 

[Drixx]

Re: The WoT Mafia Game

Oh, and I suppose I should post this to clarify. I'm not really legitimately all that upset about any of this. I just see straying into personal attacks as not in the spirit of the game. It has been a pretty long time since something someone said on the internet actually hurt in any significant way.

I mean ... have you guys spent any time on the internet? Saying mean things to hurt people has become like an art form or something, lol.