Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

[onderduiker]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

wrong. lots of misinformation...
i will post tommorow frame by frame for griss caddy. 4 different paw positions while hitting with feral...

It's been more than three days, and since you haven't followed up I will now do so.

You dismiss any method other than video analysis, so I've recorded and uploaded a video of my own:

[youtube]vEKvqv4SC3M[/youtube]
​

After clearing the area around a Barricaded Tower in the Frigid Highlands in Hell, I stashed all non-essential items before returning to repeat your test attacking air with Griswold's Redemption Caduceus and 120 weapon-IAS, and then attacked the tower. Anybody who downloads the video can perform their own frame-by-frame analysis, but for those who don't the results are as follows:

Attacking Air 4 frames
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3838/feralrageattackingair.png

Attacking and Hitting Tower [highlight]3[/highlight] frames
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2656/feralragehittingtarget.png

The difference is apparent even when seen at normal speed, both by observing the animation and mana consumption: 2,277 mana regenerates more than enough mana (18.9453125/s) to compensate for Feral Rage's mana consumption with a constant 4 frame attack rate (18.75/s), but since 3,000 mana (25/s) is required to do likewise with a constant 3 frame attack rate (25/s) it depletes while attacking the tower (mana cost is applied regardless of whether the attack hits or misses the target).

So three different (and, at least for me, proven) methods of measuring attack rate indicate in this case that while Feral Rage has a 4 frame attack rate when he doesn't hit anything (either when attacking air or missing a target due to a failed hit check, or being blocked or dodged), it has a 3 frame attack rate when he does.

As you should already be aware, these tests merely corroborate what hubb had already reported as being posted in the German inDiablo.de forums:

Regarding feral rage, they seem to have a better understanding of the mechanics on the German forum where titanseal's calc is hosted, but my Germanic first language only helps so much. As far as I can figure out his calc is correct for when your hit connects, otherwise you swing a little slower. I remember from playing SP way-back-when (it's more noticeable with slow weapons) that feral rage sometimes sped up and would be slower at other times. This also explains Vk's results as I think he tested while shift-attacking the air.

... They're wrong if you swing into the air. Go do that same test while attacking a target and you'll get 3 fpa (when your attack hits). Like I said, it makes sense, and correlates exactly with what T-hawk found in his tests described on the AB forum.

Here's a rough google translation of Titanseal's animation FAQ at diablo.ingame. It's mostly useless but you can sort-of get the gist of it. If you want to see the German or his analysis of the animation ticks here's the original post.

When the attack rate of Barbarenwut it matters whether we meet the enemy really is. If this is not the case, then, the duration of the blow that of a normal attack. Only if we cause the enemy to Barbarenwut damage (ie overcome defense and block), we get a speed bonus. The attack rate of this attack is thus influenced to some extent by the chance to hit.
At the beginning of this FAQ, I have covered the basics of animation calculation and provides the kind are now necessary. Before the start of an animation specific values are read from the game data and calculated so that the counter-value and increase the counter end value can be calculated, their ratio determines the length of each animation.

Counter end value = * Hitshift FramesPerDirection
Counter-rise value = [animation speed * Acceleration/100]

So far, these values were constant, they were not changed after its calculation. An effect of speed was so far (apart from the second special case "whirlwind") only by changing the acceleration (of SIAS, which in convertible form but looses in importance), (to lower the FramesPerDirection) a change in animation or a rollback, in which again no single impact would be possible. Barbarenwut is in this respect is a special case, because this attack increases the previously calculated Counter-rise value. Stick with an action is first queried whether our attack hits the opponent. If this were the case, the Counter-rise value is doubled, making the final part of the animation (the part between actual impact and animation end) runs faster.

The last argument about this in this thread (which, based on the date you posted your own video, I've traced back to 8 February 2008) was unresolved with both those asserting Feral Rage has a 3 frame attack rate and those asserting it has a 4 frame attack rate continuing to claim they were right... with good reason, since both were right for the conditions in which they tested.

However, both were wrong in assuming that Feral Rage has a constant, unconditional attack rate: however reasonable that assumption may have been, we now know better.

 

[onderduiker]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

Okay, it's time to answer this:

I've set up a table with DPS values for a lot of common wolfbarb weapons, but before I post it I need to know whether anyone has confirmed without a doubt which calculator or breakpoints are correct.

I can confirm that when Feral Rage hits, TitanSeal's attack speed calculator's Feral Rage breakpoints should be used; when it doesn't (for whatever reason), its Standard (Normal Attack) breakpoints should be used.

So, using Griswold's Redemption Caduceus and 120 weapon-IAS with 95% chance-to-hit and no blocking, dodging or evading, average attack rate = (3*0.95)+(4*(1-0.95)) = 3.05 frames; with 50% chance-to-hit and 75% chance of blocking, average attack rate = (3*0.5*0.25)+(4*(1-(0.5*0.25)) = 3.875 frames.

Admittedly, some of the results I posted earlier for Feral Rage without a hit suggested that this might not be the case:

WEAPON                        WEAPON IAS   FRAMES
                                           Experimental   Calculator
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Colossus Blade (one-handed)           60              9            8
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Phase Blade                           30              9            8
                                      31              8            7
                                      40              8            7

However, a subsequent frame-by-frame analysis has confirmed that Feral Rage does have the same breakpoints as Normal Attack in these cases, and double-checking the results with mana regeneration supported this... so that method is sound, but the execution was not in these particular cases: while testing all those breakpoints I must have got momentarily confused about how much mana was required for regeneration to sustain a particular attack rate. :embarassed:

 

[mburt]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

Thanks for the guide

 

[raodkill]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

hey im piecing together my barb now and i was wondering what skills i should use?
(if by any chance 2004 guide was outdated)
gear:
fort ap
2/6/6/6 wolfhowl shaeld
ss shaeld
uped gores
steelrends
grief pb (31/398)
angy rings ammy
crappy random btorch
crappy random anni
switch : 2x hoto

skills im planning so far
20 sword mastery
20 shout
20 bo
1 bc.
where should the rest of hte points go?

 

[vknez]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

20 iron skin, rest natural, incresed speed

@onderduiker:
all my attempts to shot usefull movie/screens failed cause i lag to much with fraps on (notebook to weak), and dont know what to think about feral speeds.

 

[hubb]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

^Why don't you just accept the results obtained independently by 3 different people using two different methods?

PvM/PvP roadkill?

 

[onderduiker]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

@onderduiker:
all my attempts to shot usefull movie/screens failed cause i lag to much with fraps on (notebook to weak), and dont know what to think about feral speeds.

All the evidence I've seen (including your video) supports or at the very least doesn't contradict the following conclusion:

when Feral Rage hits, TitanSeal's attack speed calculator's Feral Rage breakpoints should be used; when it doesn't (for whatever reason), its Standard (Normal Attack) breakpoints should be used.

It only contradicts the assumptions made by both parties in the previous debate (that a Werewolf Barbarian's FR attack rate when nothing is hit must be the same as when something is hit, and vice versa).

Of course, like me you may not be entirely satisfied until you've been able to test to verify that yourself, particularly since varying attack rate depending on whether the attack hits anything seems unnecessarily complicated, and thus a little counter-intuitive.

Following up, a quick frame-by-frame analysis of a Werewolf Barbarian's Normal Attack rate with a Grief Phase Blade and 31 weapon-IAS indicated that its attack rate was the same regardless of whether or not the attack hit anything (7 frames); the same applied to a Werewolf Druid's Normal Attack rate with the same weapon (9 frames).

However, a Werewolf Druid's FR attack rate also varied depending on whether it hit anything (7 frames when it did, 9 frames when it did not): once again this indicates that the attack speed calculator's FR breakpoints should be used when it hits, and its Standard (Normal Attack) breakpoints should be used when it does not.

So this is a feature of Feral Rage, and not specific to a Werewolf Barbarian.

 

[raodkill]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

^Why don't you just accept the results obtained independently by 3 different people using two different methods?

PvM/PvP roadkill?

praying for pvp ;p

btw im wondering if i should swap my 31/395 grief for a botd cb
should i?

 

[vknez]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

praying for pvp ;p

btw im wondering if i should swap my 31/395 grief for a botd cb
should i?

no. less average damage, less deadly, less speed, less range (thats not good)

^Why don't you just accept the results obtained independently by 3 different people using two different methods?

lol i m not that stuborn. i just said i dont know what to think about that. it looks like strangest attack in whole game. also if thats true, thats mean, that
status of attack (hit or not to hit) is determined at the beginning of the attack and not on contact with opponent. where did i get that? cause normally gris caddy lasts 4 frames, and 3rd frame is when paw is extended fully (contact) so it cant be shortened to 3 fpa anymore, cause 4th frame ends when the paw is in begining position.
thats why i said i dont know what to think about it...

 

[hubb]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

So the game might calculate your chance to hit just as the attack starts... is that really a big deal? I don't think you should be too worried about what's displayed in-game. The animation might have 12 frames or more, but because of the attack speed only 3 of 4 frames can be chosen and the animation is probably going to look a little strange.

@raodkill:

		per hit	FPA	FPA (block/miss)	DPS @ 90% cth	DPS @ 60% cth	Rangeadder
Grief PB [-30]	433	5	7			2165		1866		1
eBotD CB [5]	649	6	8			2703		2385		2
3x40/15*	458	5	7			2288		1972		3
EthZod,2x40/15*	631	6	8			2631		2321		3

*Tombreaver

Just take into account stuff like 20% DS and -25% def on Grief and res on Tombreaver.

 

[Hartside]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

Mmmm so chance to hit = dot ar seems more important for dot now , glad my wolfbarb hits 42k ar with demon limb is this the reason I'm beating high def zealots ^^ before people cry about chant the zealots used it also
tnx for the origanel giude and tnx to everyone else for all the extra work ( I'm not bright enough to do it ) and I've now got a serousley kick *** mellee char , and i've never met another lvl 99 wolf barb on eu sc nl

 

[Damric1]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

@ vknez: remember a while back I was asking you about my shael'd azurewrath appearing to hit 5 frames. We tried to analyze some videos but some attacks looked 5 frame (when clustered around lots of monsters) and some looked 6 frame. I'm thinking the 6 frames could have been missed attacks.

Interesting finds everyone. Looks like we are closer to finding the optimal wolf-barb weapons after 10 years ^^

 

[onderduiker]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

it looks like strangest attack in whole game. also if thats true, thats mean, that
status of attack (hit or not to hit) is determined at the beginning of the attack and not on contact with opponent.

You're making assumptions again: what's displayed client-side doesn't necessarily correspond to what happens server-side (consider Strafe, for example).

When I did a frame-by-frame analysis of 3 and 4 frame Feral Rage hits with cold and poison damage, the targets did turn blue or green in the third and fourth frame respectively... however, after giving FR a 25 frame delay it took a 27 frame poison length to keep the target green with 3 frame hits, and a 28 frame poison length to do likewise with 4 frame hits: based on previous tests I've done, delays start with the action frame and attack interval = action frame + delay, so the action frame is actually in the second (27-25) and third (28-25) frame respectively.

This indicates the action frame server-side (in which a hit or miss is determined) is actually the frame before the effects are displayed client-side.

where did i get that? cause normally gris caddy lasts 4 frames, and 3rd frame is when paw is extended fully (contact) so it cant be shortened to 3 fpa anymore, cause 4th frame ends when the paw is in begining position.

I've used Dr Tester (a utility downloaded from the Phrozen Keep) to view the A1 animation used by a Werewolf with Feral Rage (selecting d2exp.mpq from the File menu and following the path data\global\monsters\40\cof\40A1HTH.COF) and it consists of 13 frames (0-12). Zooming in and comparing those to the picture strips I posted earlier, a 3 frame attack consists of frames 0, 2 and 6 while a 4 frame attack consists of frames 0, 2, 5 and 7. Frame 0 corresponds to the paw in the beginning position while frames 6 and 7 correspond to the paw being extended, so this is the first and not the final frame of the attack animation.

 

[raodkill]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

hey im piecing together my barb now and i was wondering what skills i should use?
(if by any chance 2004 guide was outdated)
gear:
fort ap
2/6/6/6 wolfhowl shaeld
ss shaeld
uped gores
steelrends
grief pb (31/398)
angy rings ammy
crappy random btorch
crappy random anni
switch : 2x hoto

skills im planning so far
20 sword mastery
20 shout
20 bo
1 bc.
20 steel skin
10 natural res
rest increase speed

im only getting about 638-811 damage on my feral T_T (no orb with orb 988-1136) and i noticed that even the 4 shael caddy guy from page 106 (bottom) has more damage than me?
my invents pretty much empty aside from torch and anni but he doesnt have any +skillers sooo anyone wanna tell me why im such a failure?

more questions

is it enough ar if i switch off hte angies to 2x 20 dex ravens with a metalgrid?

 

[onderduiker]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

The character screen applies a Grief Phase Blade's Damage +340-400 after +% Damage whereas it's actually applied before +% Damage, so displayed damage is much lower than actual damage (in your case, it should be more than 3,000).

Your damage went up after charging Feral Rage because of 35% Chance to Cast Level 15 Venom on Striking (305-325 Poison Damage Over 0.4 Seconds): only its % Life Stolen per hit and movement speed charge up and can be transferred to other attacks before its 20 second duration expires.

 

[LinusNilsson]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

Well I'll try here.

So what IAS is needed if using a Grief PB? It really seems to be alot of talk about this, and I'm not sure which number that is right? Was thinking of getting a highlord's which also gives IAS.

Also Verdungo's or String as belt?

And Dracul's or something else for gloves?

 

[hubb]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

A 31 Grief is good enough for a 5-frame attack. With the couple of points into Werewolf you won't need more IAS (In any case Highlord's is the best amulet to use. Angelics for PvP?)

Both of those belts are good, I use T-gods for immunity versus gloams.

Since you haven't got a boatload of off-weapon ED, Laying of Hands is the best because of it's 350ED to demons. Dracs will come in handy against frenzytaurs but with the constant ~40% leech from Feral Rage it's usually not needed; it's far better to always have you merc using decrip. With Azurewrath or Lawbringer off-hand (Sanctuary aura) you slice through unleechable and phys immune undead (and gloams) so quickly that you don't miss dracs at all.

PvP: I guess Verdungo's and Bloodfists but I'm not sure.

 

[vknez]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

i think we should start writing speed of weapons like this: 5/7 for grief pb 31+ ias, for example...

bloods best gloves for pvp, belt verdungo or fhr/str/life/resists rare/blood crafted. i find other belt superior unless you are in pure melee duels

 

[Summerfun]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

How did i miss this? Got me so excited to read this.
Cya, im off to respec my wolff-barb!

 

[Hartside]

Re: Wolfbarbs-The ultimate guide (Revised verson)

How did i miss this? Got me so excited to read this.
Cya, im off to respec my wolff-barb!

Summer me you and vk will have to meet ingame for wolf barb madness