U consider ATMA storing cheating?

[sutra]

I am refering to cheating in the game's point of view.... it has rules (few very dumb IMO) and anything that is done to bend or bypass those rules is considering cheating, here, in china and at the rest of the world.

I've posted a simple opinion gathering thread and i get the vibe of "here is another non twinking moralist"... "I twink... is he calling me a cheater? This is not cheating, cattle.net is where all the cheaters are" or something.. That is not the point. :rant:
Everyone is considering the word "cheating" as a bad thing but in this case it isn't IMO. There is nothing wrong in instead of keeping 10 items found by my char i keep 100 and use any of them when i see fit... but with that char only.
This in only cheating at increased store space..
As for bulding a char and give him the uber item he can have at each level, is cheating too, but to my gameplay style and personal taste, that is taking away most of the fun the game has to me. (I still get very excited when i spend a rough time killing something and trying to stay alive, and in the end i get a green or gold drop.. even yelow) :lol:
By twinking like that the game resumes to a killing spree only (wich is perfectly fine). If there were a game option like "Build your dream char and Just Kill things" it wouldn't even be considering cheating.
So resuming, i dont care if people twink or dont twink, and if that is good cheating or bad cheating, as long as they're having fun in how they like to play and as long as that don't interfere with the others playing style when in MP. Other than that i love u all and wish u well!!! So let's get to the point:
:buddies: :drink:

 

[NSXdreamer]

arrrgh! not another one of these! :rant:

is there even a point to this debate. :grrr:

uuu....i'm using an optic mouse, does that makes me a cheater since i can target better in my games? :innocent:

Yes, and we shall ban all people with fast new computer which dosen't go to 5 fps when a LF zon decides to do her little happy dance, and people with broadband connections from MP dance. :lol:

 

[pesot]

{deleted}- sorry double post, the forum is slow tonight.

 

[pesot]

I HATE my optic mouse. Its a M$ branded one and a gift from my girlfriend so I cant just ditch it without severe consequences. But the pointer jumps to a corner often while playing and it almost killed me a few times (and I normally play HC). So dont get me started on that one ! O wait, you already did....

j00 n00b! logitech optics is teh uber 133t g34r :lol: .

 

[Howitzer Al]

Seems to me that if Blizzard hadn't wanted us to mule and/or twink, then they would have made it so that in single player games only items usable by that character would drop. Paladin shields wouldn't drop when a Barbarian is playing, etc.

 

[whomhead]

What was the this great Combustion that you speak of?

its the reason why there's an "other place" that people refer to... had it not been for some unfortunate things that people said and did regarding ATMA and this forum's stance regarding its use, we'd all (probably) still be one big happy family. fortunately everything but the hurt feelings have been settled, and we are now able to freely discuss ATMA. at least now people have the right to decide if its cheating or not, and play accordingly.

 

[x3n]

I personally think that using ATMA to mule is perfectly ok .. One of the main reasons is that when ppl can mule online why should sp'ers be denied the opportunity to go stash those l337 itamz they find? I think it enriches the game experience to a large degree...

 

[CheekyJez]

My thinking towards storage space takes three main points:

1) MF. If we didn't have the ability to twink, we pretty much wouldn't be able to MF. And there would be no point, as on the offchance you find something decent, it probably wouldn't be usable by that character.

2) Item sets. The point of item sets is to wear the items together. The odds of finding 2 items from a set, let alone a full set, are miniscule, if you don't twink. Adding to point (1), if you have the MF from a few PTopaz'es, finding this stuff will be nigh-on impossible.

3) The "technical" argument. If I had about £1000 kicking around, I could quite easily buy myself a second computer, a LAN hub, a bunch of cables, a second copy of D2X, set up my own little LAN game, create a bunch of mule chars, and bring them in whenever I wanted to mule stuff off or on. Do Blizzard really want people who have more cash in hand to have an advantage in the game over those with less? Are they secretly an offshoot of Dell, Toshiba, or Apple, trying to get us to purchase more computers?

Having said that, I'm not a good player - I've only beaten the game twice, both with ubertwinked cookie cutters. I can understand how more skilled players than myself would want not to twink, to make the game more of a challenge. It's just that for me it's hard enough as it is.

 

[PyroStock]

I HATE my optic mouse. Its a M$ branded one and a gift from my girlfriend so I cant just ditch it without severe consequences. But the pointer jumps to a corner often while playing and it almost killed me a few times (and I normally play HC).

The pointer/cursor is great with my optic mouse, but the buttons are going to get one of my HC characters killed. They sometimes don't work until the 2nd time I press it (as if my character is rethinking the philosophy on their mass killings of evil) or will double-click when I want a single-click (click on a gem in my stash & it immediately drops it). And it's only 6months old. When I didn't use an optic mouse the pointer/cursor was a nightmare.
This ends my thread hijacking.

 

[Bongo Fury]

its the reason why there's an "other place" that people refer to... had it not been for some unfortunate things that people said and did regarding ATMA and this forum's stance regarding its use, we'd all (probably) still be one big happy family. fortunately everything but the hurt feelings have been settled, and we are now able to freely discuss ATMA. at least now people have the right to decide if its cheating or not, and play accordingly.

The oldtimers always refer to this broohaha, and I understand that it got ugly. And I really don't want to restart old arguments or cause angst at reliving those times. But could we please get a brief synopsis for the newer folks here? What were the issues involved, what were the major factions, and how did it all wash out? If we're aware of what happened then, we might be able to avoid stepping on so many toes now. Just a neutral toned summary so as not to inflame the issue. Someone can PM me if you would prefer not to speak publically.

"those who fail to learn the lessons of history are destined to repeat those lessons"

 

[Bongo Fury]

I am refering to cheating in the game's point of view.... it has rules (few very dumb IMO) and anything that is done to bend or bypass those rules is considering cheating, here, in china and at the rest of the world.

IMO, as the game creator and maintainer, Bilzzard, has the authority to set the rules. They have done this in the EULA for SP and the TOUA for when interacting with others. So any violations of these rules can technically be considered cheating. But like you said, cheating is not necessarily black and white, but rather multiple shades of gray. And where each person draws the line is a matter of opinion.

I don't see how you can consider twinking to be cheating though, even in a technical way. As far as I know Blizzard has never said that it is. On their website they say that they 'do not support' muling/twinking. But I think that is just to absolve themselves of any liability since muling/twinking is an inherently risky thing to do. Any number of glitches can lead to the loss of your items, and it's not their fault because that's part of the game. Additionally, if players were not expected to mule items, there would be no use for the 'loot' function for dead HC characters.

Now from a 'purist' point of view, muling would not be allowed. But that's a variant play style, with the limitations set by the player not the rules. And that's the great thing about this game. So many different people can play the game in so many different ways. The bottom line is to have fun. I've played Purist characters, but I never was able to get a purist Guardian. Made it to Hell Ancients twice. And I've played some Ironman too. Working with the limited stash space adds a whole new level of challenge to the game. Sometimes I really enjoy the challenge. But most times it's an impediment to fun. Having to stop and carefully consider each drop isn't how I like to play all the time. So that means muling off items and/or twinking. Which is an equally legitimate way to play.

 

[ElmoCorruptsChildren]

From the beginning of my magic find runs, I have been muling all the items that one character didn't have any use for and then some, including tons of gems and jewels, sets and uniques, and even some random socketed stuff I've found along the way just in case I find a use for it. So, I've already established myself as a "cheater". And for me to mule, I had to trick my computer, run D2 on two user names, and trade back and forth using TCP/IP. Generally, it was a simple procedure, but there were a couple times I exited a game by accident and lost maybe 6 or 7 big name items. Let's say that I was a little upset losing some of those items.

And along comes ATMA. I LOVE ATMA. No more worry about losing items now. And like some others have said, all the items I have stored have come from all my own characters, so I feel it's fine to switch and swap items that my guys have gotten; it's like all my guys are my own underlings, so they're a team and can interact with one another. "Hey, any of you mules have a perfect topaz I can borrow? I'll give you the next one I find." "Hey, here's one. And don't worry, I'll just get another one from that dude over there, he's got plenty."

I do play untwinked games sometimes, but sometimes I don't. ATMA saves me time and concern, and for that I am truly greatful.

 

[Angellus]

it's not cheating because i tend to think of my SP characters as simulation for ladder hc chars. i know what to look for, trade for, etc. by experimenting first in sp using various items and mules. i mean, that's the whole point of SP!

 

[AlterEgo]

Interesting perspective Angellus.

I play ladder HC characters right here in SP But I do it one better - untwinked HC. This isn't practice, it's the real thing!

In 1.09 I used ATMA to collect items for my grail & got pretty close. In 1.10 I only use it to mule off items that I plan to give away. It's not a storage issue for me at all. Since I play untwinked, I'm comfortable leaving most sets and uniques on the ground, unless I can use them right away. They don't usually sell for much at the vendors... :lol:

Bottom line, I don't consider it cheating, because it changes absolutely nothing in-game for me.

 

[CheekyJez]

it's not cheating because i tend to think of my SP characters as simulation for ladder hc chars. i know what to look for, trade for, etc. by experimenting first in sp using various items and mules. i mean, that's the whole point of SP!

I'd REALLY have to disagree with this. People play SP for a HUGE variety of reasons - they like the privacy, the ability to play at their own pace, not having to log in to accounts periodically to keep them active, due to a slow/expensive internet connection, or just because they like the SPF atmosphere and community. Yes, some people use it as a testing ground for battle.net, but that's not true of the majority of people who read this forum.

 

[Icebird]

To avoid digging up old grievances I'll try to recap the entire incident last year in the most succint way possible.

There was a discussion on the private moderator forum on whether ATMA was legitimate or not. At the time ATMA had some editing features enabled. The former forum moderator posted comments from that private discussion to the SPF (for which his moderating privileges were revoked). Heated debate followed. Some people were banned. Other respected members of long-standing chose to leave voluntarily. For a period, no discussion of ATMA on the forum was possible whle the administrators came to a decision on whether it violated the site's rules about discussions of cheats and hacks.

Hakai removed the editing features, the admins decided that transferring items between characters didn't represent cheating, and that's pretty much where we are today. Ragnarod deserves a lot of credit for acting as a middleman between the forum and admins at a fairly tense time for the SPF.

Chris

 

[croakie]

as long as they're having fun in how they like to play and as long as that don't interfere with the others playing style

I agree completely. Right now I'm playing (mostly) untwinked, but if I find something exceptionally good in the future for another character at least I have a way to keep it and use it easily.

 

[pharaoh1]

I HATE my optic mouse. Its a M$ branded one and a gift from my girlfriend so I cant just ditch it without severe consequences. But the pointer jumps to a corner often while playing and it almost killed me a few times (and I normally play HC). So dont get me started on that one ! O wait, you already did....

This is why Microsoft mice are best avoided. While they're generally okay, I don't find them comfortable, and there are times when the mouse won't work reliably. Logitech makes much nicer mice, and the only time I have a problem with my optical mouse is when the batteries die (it's cordless too). I get more 'issues' from my low-end laptop (PII/366 w/128M) than I ever do from my mouse. On the upside, though, I can play D2 during more boring college lectures.

As for ATMA, I don't consider it cheating, nor do I think twinking is cheating. Imagine finding some uber-rare unique or set item, and not being able to use it because the character who found it was the wrong one to use it? Trading items is an integral part of the game, and by trading I don't just mean the little in-game trade screen; I mean any transferring of gear from one character to another, even if both characters are owned by the same player.

 

[Hakai_no_Tenshi]

To avoid digging up old grievances I'll try to recap the entire incident last year in the most succint way possible.

There was a discussion on the private moderator forum on whether ATMA was legitimate or not. At the time ATMA had some editing features enabled. The former forum moderator posted comments from that private discussion to the SPF (for which his moderating privileges were revoked). Heated debate followed. Some people were banned. Other respected members of long-standing chose to leave voluntarily. For a period, no discussion of ATMA on the forum was possible whle the administrators came to a decision on whether it violated the site's rules about discussions of cheats and hacks.

Hakai removed the editing features, the admins decided that transferring items between characters didn't represent cheating, and that's pretty much where we are today. Ragnarod deserves a lot of credit for acting as a middleman between the forum and admins at a fairly tense time for the SPF.

Chris

That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell. Obviously, there was a lot more going on behind the scenes but let's not drag that to the surface again.

--T

 

[AlterEgo]

Nice summary Icebird. Yup, those were the days :uhhuh:

That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell. Obviously, there was a lot more going on behind the scenes but let's not drag that to the surface again.

--T

*nods in agreement* Some things are best kept under the surface - like the Giant Squid!