Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

[Trim]

Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

I've started Travincial running lately to earn some runes. My gear is sub-optimal in many slots due to a lack of wealth, and there's lots of room for improvement. I've done some light reading and have a basic idea on what items to shoot for ultimately. However, what's left to interpretation is which items will have the biggest impact on run times.

Thanks to a lucky find in an eth Reapers and a recent trade with jDer for a Guardian Angel & a Kira's, my merc is well outfitted. I estimate these items alone have cut my run times in half. Without his Decrep, my runs were easily 2.5 minutes each.

What's left is the gear for my whirler. The three upgrades I could use most are my armor and weapons.

Now that I've done a fair number of runs, I totally see how useful Enigma could be. Telestomping with your merc would obviously be faster than running to meet the council. The problem is that I'm nowhere near rich enough to afford an Enigma. Therefore, it's being left out of the immediate discussion.

If I add up all the runes I DO have (within reason), it totals to Lo+. What that means is that I have a choice to make. I can make:

Fortitude & Oath
OR
Grief PB & Oath

Now, one might confuse my queries with every other thread asking "What should I make first, Grief or Fortitude?" But keep in mind that I'm wondering what would be best for my whirler... not every character I've got. Believe me, this item will get put to good use somewhere else regardless of what I make.

Honestly, I don't know what selection would best improve my character. What choice will make the better improvement?

Technically, I can make both an Oath & a Death, but I can afford to trade for only one 1.07 base (maybe... if I'm lucky, an Ist might cover two *shrug*). Even if I could, my gut reaction is that they wouldn't make a bigger improvement than a Fort or a Grief, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Also, to save me the time searching, what sword bases are best for Oath and Death? I've read it a zillion times, but because I never had the runes for them it hasn't sunken in.

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I've got a couple other random questions for the Travincial veterans.

Attack rating & chance to hit. What's yours, and what should I be shooting for? Both the axes I have reduce enemy defense by 33%, but even then I still need the Angelic combo to hit stuff most/all the time. ...I just realized my merc is now reliable, though, and Decrep should surely help immensely when you're attacking monsters under its effect. Still, with your weapons of choice, do you have to do anything special to ensure a high rate for hits? Load up on AR charms, maybe, or is it unnecessary? Decrep might make a world of difference, but do you care if you whiff when you attack monsters that aren't Decreped?

Also, I find myself spending as much time, if not more, sorting through the spoils than I do fighting. At least in LK runs you can look for patterns among the popped items. But you never know what you're gonna get from Council runs. Any tips you can share to help me speed up the process? Right now, I'm on only /p3 and I'm still having problems. I'm also trying very hard to fight the Council in two waves, first the six outside and then five inside, to keep all the items from stacking up. And I know that it's recommended to fight everyone inside so no one runs away. Clearly, I'm taking too much time, and I'm already using a sub-optimal strategy. I'd love to know how you deal with all the random junk.

Thank you all so much for your advice. It will be greatly appreciated!

 

[Fabian]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Normally in a "should I make Grief or Fortitude?" thread, my standard response is "Fortitude will probably be more useful overall, but since I'm a WW fanboy, I'm partial to Grief". For Travincal, Grief will be more useful, make Grief Grief is insane on a WW Barb, much better than Fortitude.

As for base weapons, you can either go Swords (1.07 eth Balrog Blade for Oath, Phase Blade for Grief) or Axes (1.07 eth Berserker Axes for both runewords). I think Axes are much better, for several reasons:

a) An 1.07 eth BA Grief will do quite a bit more damage than a PB Grief.
b) An 1.07 eth BA Grief has a range of 3, compared to a PB Grief's range of 2. This is actually a pretty big deal for the Whirlwind skill.
c) You need to pump Dexterity to 136 to use Phase Blades. This is something you probably don't want in an ideal world.

Note that some people have started making their Sword Grief in Zweinhanders, which is good because you get the Range 3, good because the Dex requirement isn't annoying, but bad because the damage is low. Using Berserker Axes basically has no downsides, whereas the Swords all do. I guess one downside of BA's is the high cost of 1.07 eth 4os/5os BA's, but I'm talking about gameplay specifically.

Now after I wrote all this, I see your question is what [highlight]sword[/highlight] bases are best. Oops, sorry. Consider respecing to Axe Mastery, otherwise the answer is Balrog Blade. Death in a 1-handed sword, dunno. Berserker Axe Don't make Death though, not for a WW Barb anyway. Oath -> Grief is the only progression you need.

As for your other questions, I solve AR problems with Charms and some hard points into Dexterity. Decrepify, too. Especially when you use Teleport, Decrep will trigger basically immediately basically always on all monsters (I assume you have a map where they all spawn together right?), another added benefit of Teleport. I think Angelic Combo is a pretty fine solution, but I think Highlord's + a bunch of Steel GC's is probably better, maybe with some Dexterity. That Rare ring you can replace Angelic's with can come with some nice AR too, either in the form of AR or +Str you can instead spend in Dexterity, etc etc.

As for the sorting issue, it helps to hold Alt while the monsters are dying, so you see what items drop as they drop, instead of looking at everything afterwards on the ground. Bringing up the inventory window while holding Alt will also shift what items are visible around a bit, which can be helpful. Just looking for the orange flash/seeing the rune graphic as it drops/listening to the sound of a rune drop also helps, especially the first two in my experience.

I'd suggest taking a look at this thread if you haven't. The first post is pretty solid imo, and there's some decent discussion as well. Good luck.

 

[JihadJesus]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

For this specific character? Grief + Oath hands down. There's a cheap budget armor (Black Hades) that can pretty easily get to 160%+ ED to demons (which is all you care about) socketed with jewels, and LoH has another 350%. You won't be hurting for ED, but nothing will boost the base damage like Grief.

That said, Fort will probably allow you to equip Highlord's easily and that DS is nothing to sneeze at. Either setup is more than suitable.

 

[frozzzen1]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

I'd go with Grief PB if I was you. It has been discussed and there is half decent substitute for Forti --> Black Hades armor. It has 3 open sockets and

+30-60% Damage To Demons (varies)
+200-250 To Attack Rating Against Demons (varies)

You can fill sockets with Diamond jewels (up to 40% dmg to Demons, and it's not bugged). You can make armor with 180% ED to Demons, and even more if you can find some rare jewels with both %ED and %ED to Demons.

Highlord's wrath can also greatly help with your dmg output and it's not really expensive. You can also use Naj's staff for teleport on switch and roll map where all Council members are in same room to speed up runs.

EDIT: td; dr: what JihadJesus said

 

[NagisaFurukawa]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Fabian: Axe does have downside of being more expensive to make, as well as too slow on 36% of rolls. Also, 'Death' works decently for slaughtering on WW, even despite the lack of speed. Not saying people should make it for WW, but that it functions okay as stopgap. Aside from this, I don't understand how Decrepify helps AR, and how 136 dexterity is useless when it does, as you say later, provide AR.

TRM: +1 to the 'Grief' camp. ('Fortitude' is just a useless armor anyway. /bias) As far as picking items, you can be silly like me and use all potions during fight, then just pick them back up (along with gold) while sorting through things. :crazyeyes: Not very efficient of course, but it worked okay.

Good luck!

 

[Fabian]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Nagisa, I said that Berserker Axes are the best specifically when looking at gameplay. There are external factors though, certainly. I mentioned one and forgot about the other.

I think Oath is better than Death, so if you can afford to make Death, you can afford Oath, and you shouldn't be making Death. I know some people (maareek I think) thought Death was better than Oath for a WW Barb. I tried it and didn't like it, Oath is the second best weapon imo (well, botd, but you know what I mean).

Decrepify might not help AR, that was careless wording. It certainly helps you ignore a lack of AR though, as monsters die immediately

I didn't say 136 dex is useless, I said in an ideal world, you probably don't want to put that many points there.

I agree that Fortitude is something of a useless armor when you achieve enough wealth. Good for mercs but not much else.

 

[Trim]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Thank you for the prompt responses, guys. I thought Grief would be the better play, but I wanted to be sure. Again, I don't know the power of these runewords, so I thought it best to ask the professionals.

I'm actually using axes right now, and yeah, if I were to make a Grief in an axe it'd certainly be in a berserker base. However, I don't want to end up "wasting" the runes on Grief in a BA if the IAS roll is too low to hit the last WW breakpoint. Once I get a LOT of runes, I'll consider making multiple Griefs. But at this time, I can't take that chance with what little I have. It's gotta be a phase blade.

Plus, if I have to pump Dex to use a PB, it'll help out my AR a little, too. I can't complain about that.

Zwei for Grief? Hmm. Interesting idea. If I were to do it, I'd still want it in an ATMA bugged base to keep from having to repair it. Still, that's something I'll have to keep in mind for the future.

Great suggestions for other gear, too, guys. ...I don't have ANY of it, but maybe I can trade for some eventually. (it's kind of weird... I've got a 62% complete grail. I'm missing only two rings, but I have ONE lone unique amulet. gogo Nokozan!)

Looks like I'm off to the SPTF to look for an item base or two. I've got a 5os PB stashed, but should I be looking for a superior base with ED? Something tells me it's practically worthless, but again... I'm not an expert.

@Nagisa: You echoed/ninja'd my sentiments exactly about using a Grief PB. ...Hmm, yeah... I was thinking that Decrep reduces defense, but it's just physical resistance. I don't know why I had that in my head. ...I'll use the excuse that it's 2:30am.

 

[Fabian]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Practically worthless is right. Will make very close to zero difference, and certainly not a difference you'd be able to see. Then again, it's stylish, so if one is available, why not Style is nice.

 

[Trim]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Actually, the 5os PB I have is superior.

...+1 AR. Stylin'. :badteeth:

Thanks to you especially, Fabian. I was very pleased to see the King of the Council be the first to respond. I'm in your debt.

 

[bassano]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

I agree that Fortitude is something of a useless armor when you achieve enough wealth. Good for mercs but not much else.

I am actually using it in council runs, I exactly do not think that few teleports did from enigma will improve your run speed so much but some extra damage from forti help me quite enough with killing speed (at least I think )

 

[frozzzen1]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

I am actually using it in council runs, I exactly do not think that few teleports did from enigma will improve your run speed so much but some extra damage from forti help me quite enough with killing speed (at least I think )

Hmm.. I can't really see a reason to use forti instead of enigma. I'm fairly sure you have it.
Don't forget that enigma comes with 70 str. If I'm not mistaken that is 70%ED. Then your two main skills.. WW and Mastery - it adds 16% ED on WW and 10% on mastery with two skills. Don't forget all other skills it boosts - one point wonders, find item etc. 45 FRW will help you run through town pretty fast, and with 105 fcr switch you will speed your teleporting/horking by big amount. On top of all that you will get free ~90MF.

Forti offers you 300ED, but that's about it. Only 200 more then enigma and it has cold armor that might cause Council members to shatter. Resists are not needed since you will have 75 LR/CR with HLW, LoH and Areat's + passive skill anyway.

Enigma just blows forti out of competition. Or you can prove me otherwise :wink:

 

[Fabian]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Also, I actually ran the numbers on Grief vs Fortitude when lots of people were recommending making Fortitude before Grief for their Travincaler. Since that seems pretty relevant to this thread, here's the post. There, you can also see how much better a Grief BA is than a Grief PB

 

[Jaycob]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Make Grief and use Atma's Wail which has 3 sockets to fill with demon jewels and inherent ED% vs demons. If you have some decent demon charms you can get something like +150% damage to demons (half a Fortitude vs the Council)... Half a fortitude + grief is surely better than just fortitude. That should boost your damage quite a bit and you will be moving on to Enigma soon enough anyway so that's a suboptimal investment...

@Fabian... your results look like there isn't a HUGE difference in damage between phase blades and 1.07 zerker axes... It seems like a lot of work to obtain the proper 1.07 base, abuse ATMA and waste some good runes... than to just use any old 5os Phase Blade that drops form the sky.

 

[Dodgydave]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

If we're throwing around big runewords what abouit COH? 200% damage to demons there.

 

[bassano]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Hmm.. I can't really see a reason to use forti instead of enigma. I'm fairly sure you have it.
Don't forget that enigma comes with 70 str. If I'm not mistaken that is 70%ED. Then your two main skills.. WW and Mastery - it adds 16% ED on WW and 10% on mastery with two skills. Don't forget all other skills it boosts - one point wonders, find item etc. 45 FRW will help you run through town pretty fast, and with 105 fcr switch you will speed your teleporting/horking by big amount. On top of all that you will get free ~90MF.

Forti offers you 300ED, but that's about it. Only 200 more then enigma and it has cold armor that might cause Council members to shatter. Resists are not needed since you will have 75 LR/CR with HLW, LoH and Areat's + passive skill anyway.

Enigma just blows forti out of competition. Or you can prove me otherwise :wink:

Lot of that benefit you wrote are not usefull in council running
e.g. you said 2 skills to better horking, with that 2 skills my hork % will be increased by 0 or 1% this is pretty useless
I just have about 100 FRW so 100 or 145 is not really so huge difference, 1 second max during run through docks but OK this is a little helpfull
+90 MF, does not count on runes so useless too
I do not have resists and I never needed them, not for that I am using forti, my life leach is powerfull enough to not die
ofc enigma have some advantages like that teleport allow you to have merc where you want, beacuse he is lazy slacker and without enigma he need some time to come and help me with decrepify and that teleport how you said give you couple o seconds but I think that couple of seconds I will be faster with killing speed
I do not think it is big difference between enigma and fortutude, but I tried with enigma and I was disappointed so I switched to forti.
And who knows, forti will make me angry soon too I think so I will switch back to enigma

 

[Fabian]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Jaycob, I suppose that depends on how you define huge. I think 16% is very significant, but sure, a Grief is still a Grief. The difference between range 2 and range 3 weapons can't be ignored though, that's an additional pretty significant upgrade in damage per second too, most likely.

Don't get me wrong though, a Grief PB will work better than fine. It's just not the optimal weapon, imo.

Edit: Just to put 16% in perspective, the difference between a perfect roll Grief PB and an average roll Grief PB is 7%. The absolute difference in damage between a +370 PB and a +400 PB is less than between a +400 PB and a +370 BA (with the BA doing more damage of course). A +370 BA is essentially like a +440 PB, if that could exist.

 

[frozzzen1]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Bass I don't think you are right with enigma vs forti but I guess you have your reasons to use it.

+90 MF, does not count on runes so useless too

I wonder I wonder what would happen if I had 90 more MF...
Just to tell you that MF isn't useless. Of all people you could appreciate it :wink:
Facets, SoJ, 4 Wisp Projectors... everything found cause of added MF. Council isn't only about runes. They will drop, but why not finding something nice along the way?

1% increase in hork isn't big amount but in the end EVERYTHING counts. Your slightly higher ED, my faster Decrep triggering and so on.

In the end I use enigma cause it allows me much more control over my character.

EDIT:

Long ago in 1.12a - this screenshot is just proof that EVERYTHING counts :wink: That Frost Nova was very hurty. I kinda miss those days

 

[bassano]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Bass I don't think you are right with enigma vs forti but I guess you have your reasons to use it.

EDIT:

Long ago in 1.12a - this screenshot is just proof that EVERYTHING counts :wink: That Frost Nova was very hurty. I kinda miss those days

I am using forti from my personal reasons and as I said I am not suer if it is 2-3 seconds slower or faster then enigma but I am saying your arguments are not right for me beacuse....

I wonder I wonder what would happen if I had 90 more MF...

Nothing exactly, you can not drop tyrael in travincal, you should know that

Facets, SoJ, 4 Wisp Projectors... everything found cause of added MF. Council isn't only about runes. They will drop, but why not finding something nice along the way?

Just to tell you that MF isn't useless. Of all people you could appreciate it :wink:

I do not need any facets more then I actually have, I have about 5 SoJs and 4 Wisps and with enough absorb so I do not care about nothing more then runes from council
ANd charms but they also are not depending on MF

1% increase in hork isn't big amount but in the end EVERYTHING counts. Your slightly higher ED, my faster Decrep triggering and so on.

As I said I am not really sure if will be 1%, more probably will be 0 beacuse my hork is on quite high level beacuse I put there enough skill points to have it ballanced to cca 61% with gear

In the end I use enigma cause it allows me much more control over my character.

That is right, but as I said first it is especially for merc control, I have enough control on my character even with forti, I only need to run more

 

[Fabian]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Only one way to settle this fellas. Videos!

 

[bassano]

Re: Trav Whirler - Gear Hierarchy & more

Only one way to settle this fellas. Videos!

I would like to do video but unfortunatelly just more then one year, I can play only in windowed mode beacuse my fulscreen mdoe with FRAPS is too slow to do that

btw. can I ask you if you have somewhere link to your extra fast council run I saw several months ago? And if you have Pat thread of your barb
I would like to take some advices from your gear if I am correct with my setup

thanks a lot