Well, I was talking strictly SvS, as that is what this thread is about. Vs bone necs, eshield is the best defense of any class, but in SvS high res is more effective. However, a medium eshield in SvS will give you extra life and improve your survivability. This is why the dual spirit lit sorc is most effective. The spirits add tons of mana so you don't have to add any for it to be effective, and the mass lit skills gives you a perfect eshield level with only one point. With superfast tele and really high fhr, your chances of dodging and escaping an attack are much greater than for any other sorc.
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SvS Which build is strongest?
- Thread starter atenza
- Start date
No. Wrong. Everyone here is arguing that you should either have a pure vit or pure energy sorc. Neither of those is really any good in SvS, but if you're using spirits and get a good deal of mana, and use a low-mid level eshield, It's more effective than actually putting points in energy and also more effective than not using eshield at all.
AndyChrono
New member
The only duel where two Spirits would be of any real advantage is against a MB Assassin because of the FHR. In SvS 86 FHR is more than enough if you're going with the optimized build. Resists aren't a problem for ANY sorc. With the introduction of Hellfire charms getting max resist plus some additional stacking to negate griffons/facets is extremely easy. Against a cold sorc you won't be stacking resist against them since it would totally gimp your damage and cast rate.
Yes, an optimized build like you say with solid life/mana and medium ES can take more burst damage than a full ES build before dying. Unfortunately you will also take more damage because you can be sent into hit recovery.
24k Fireball against a 3k life/ 3k mana sorc with ~70% ES and 75% resist would deal about 300 damage to life, greater than the 1/12 needed to send you into hit recovery. What happens then is you're stuck in hit recovery while the other sorc winds up the next shot. Even with insane FHR from 2 spirits you're looking at 4-frames IIRC for hit recovery + 7-8 frames for teleport.
The same 24k fireball against a full ES sorc (1.4k life, 4k mana, 75% resist) will deal a paltry 50 damage to life. This is not enough to send the sorc into hit recovery. Consequently the ES sorc teleports on like nothing even happens and escapes, never worrying about the follow-up shot. You'll also lose about 2.85k mana from that hit which is about 24-25 seconds of regeneration. This is fine since a duel between 2 good sorcs will last 2-3 minutes at the very least.
Yes, an optimized build like you say with solid life/mana and medium ES can take more burst damage than a full ES build before dying. Unfortunately you will also take more damage because you can be sent into hit recovery.
24k Fireball against a 3k life/ 3k mana sorc with ~70% ES and 75% resist would deal about 300 damage to life, greater than the 1/12 needed to send you into hit recovery. What happens then is you're stuck in hit recovery while the other sorc winds up the next shot. Even with insane FHR from 2 spirits you're looking at 4-frames IIRC for hit recovery + 7-8 frames for teleport.
The same 24k fireball against a full ES sorc (1.4k life, 4k mana, 75% resist) will deal a paltry 50 damage to life. This is not enough to send the sorc into hit recovery. Consequently the ES sorc teleports on like nothing even happens and escapes, never worrying about the follow-up shot. You'll also lose about 2.85k mana from that hit which is about 24-25 seconds of regeneration. This is fine since a duel between 2 good sorcs will last 2-3 minutes at the very least.
Since when is an ES sorc always a pure energy sorc? An ES sorc is a sorc that is using Energy Shield. Nobody said it has to be a pure energy sorc using 95% ES.Aeonios said:No. Wrong. Everyone here is arguing that you should either have a pure vit or pure energy sorc. Neither of those is really any good in SvS, but if you're using spirits and get a good deal of mana, and use a low-mid level eshield, It's more effective than actually putting points in energy and also more effective than not using eshield at all.
The sorcs that I use are an FB and Light sorc that use 1 point in ES. The sorc AndyChrono uses is a 95% ES Orber. I'd say these are the 3 best pvp sorc builds.
So you agree that using ES is better for pvp then?
Neuroff said:So in SvS nobody is going to shoot anything from offscreen? What's this pub talk? I've never been talking about pubs. Is that supposed to be an insult? Half of dueling is not getting hit. For some reason you don't seem to get this. Why don't we just have a pissing contest? Stand next to each other, say "1, 2, 3, go", and then hold down the right mouse button.
Since when do 200 FCR sorcs use frostburns and sojs? They'll be using FCR rings with stats and res. How would life/mana scs be a disadvantage? They give an extra possible 17 useful stats that vita sorcs can't use.
ES sorcs have high mana. It takes no time to regenerate enough mana to tele even if you start with zero mana. A light sorc doesn't even have to regenerate any mana to tele. A vita sorc requires a mana pot if it's low on mana, an ES sorc does not.
Explain how 1 frame FHR is going to help.
From what you're saying is that in SvS. Sorcs tele around hiding in corners once they get hit once to wait till their mana regenerate? Therefore making mana the biggest advantage. Also you make it sound like your sorc will only get hit once and the other sorc will give you time to regenerate your mana.
You havn't dueled SvS in pubs? How is pub an insult? Maybe to you but some of the best duelers duel there.
There are 105/117 FCR SvS out there.
Yes those 17 stats are useless if they don't actually help in a vita sorc. A 20/5 on the other hand gives you resist which is very important in SvS and which most ES 200%fcr sorcs lack in.
Why do vita sorcs need mana pots? They will have enough mana, enough mana regeneration and they won't lose mana once they get hit. On the contrarty, ES sorcs need mana pots since one to two hits will bring their mana down.
FHR locks happen when 1/12 of life is taken off in one attack. In pure vita sorcs primary dmg goes towards life therefore you'll need FHR.
AndyChrono said:Resists aren't a problem for ANY sorc. With the introduction of Hellfire charms getting max resist plus some additional stacking to negate griffons/facets is extremely easy.
How? You'll need some godly boots/rings/ammy to stack that high. Unless you're non 200%fcr then you'll need pretty godly gear.
killian271
New member
I like my vita light sorc against other sorcs, she is holding infinity and with a good roll seems to one-hit kill damn near anything... so its very important to get the first hit in lol :laugh:
We're talking about the BEST build. How could the best sorc not have godly gear?RetroStar said:How? You'll need some godly boots/rings/ammy to stack that high. Unless you're non 200%fcr then you'll need pretty godly gear.
Neuroff said:We're talking about the BEST build. How could the best sorc not have godly gear?
How does having the best BUILD imply best GEAR is needed? I can argue best involves having the most efficient outcome based on gear?
Also it's pretty bias to assume best sorc must have best equip.. skills are one of the major factors as best equip won't save you from a couple of 16-17k FB for example (which is pretty low)
I didn't see your previous post until just now.
And yes, the best equip will easily save you from a couple of 16k FBs.
Really, your argument doesn't even have anything to do with ES vs non ES any more, all you're doing is changing the subject. You haven't given a single valid reason for vita sorcs being better than ES sorcs.
From what you're saying in SvS, everyone has autoaim and never misses. Even if you're spamming you're likely to get at least two hits in. Duels end in 10 seconds. I never said they let me regenerate mana, I'm going to make it hard for them to hit me without getting hit first.RetroStar said:From what you're saying is that in SvS. Sorcs tele around hiding in corners once they get hit once to wait till their mana regenerate? Therefore making mana the biggest advantage. Also you make it sound like your sorc will only get hit once and the other sorc will give you time to regenerate your mana.
So? The point was that ES Sorcs don't have to wear SOJs and Frostburns.RetroStar said:There are 105/117 FCR SvS out there.
When a vita sorc casts a spell, they lose mana, when an ES sorc casts a spell, they gain mana. Obviously when you can't regenerate mana, you need mana pots.RetroStar said:Why do vita sorcs need mana pots? They will have enough mana, enough mana regeneration and they won't lose mana once they get hit. On the contrarty, ES sorcs need mana pots since one to two hits will bring their mana down.
Everyone already knows when FHR happens, what you never explained is how 6 frame FHR is so much better than 7 frame FHR.RetroStar said:FHR locks happen when 1/12 of life is taken off in one attack. In pure vita sorcs primary dmg goes towards life therefore you'll need FHR.
The best sorc doesn't necessarily have the best equip, but that person for sure will have at the least very good equipment. If the person with the most skill had a sorc that died in one hit and only did 10K FB, do they have the best sorc? Probably not. BUILDS are based on GEAR. Obviously the best build must use good gear. Are you expecting the best 200 FCR sorcs to be using plain 20 FCR circlets and amulets or something? Good ES/Orbers use a rare orb and Peasant Crown? Of course not.RetroStar said:How does having the best BUILD imply best GEAR is needed? I can argue best involves having the most efficient outcome based on gear?
Also it's pretty bias to assume best sorc must have best equip.. skills are one of the major factors as best equip won't save you from a couple of 16-17k FB for example (which is pretty low)
And yes, the best equip will easily save you from a couple of 16k FBs.
Really, your argument doesn't even have anything to do with ES vs non ES any more, all you're doing is changing the subject. You haven't given a single valid reason for vita sorcs being better than ES sorcs.
Neuroff said:I didn't see your previous post until just now.
From what you're saying in SvS, everyone has autoaim and never misses. Even if you're spamming you're likely to get at least two hits in. Duels end in 10 seconds. I never said they let me regenerate mana, I'm going to make it hard for them to hit me without getting hit first.
So? The point was that ES Sorcs don't have to wear SOJs and Frostburns.
When a vita sorc casts a spell, they lose mana, when an ES sorc casts a spell, they gain mana. Obviously when you can't regenerate mana, you need mana pots.
Everyone already knows when FHR happens, what you never explained is how 6 frame FHR is so much better than 7 frame FHR.
The best sorc doesn't necessarily have the best equip, but that person for sure will have at the least very good equipment. If the person with the most skill had a sorc that died in one hit and only did 10K FB, do they have the best sorc? Probably not. BUILDS are based on GEAR. Obviously the best build must use good gear. Are you expecting the best 200 FCR sorcs to be using plain 20 FCR circlets and amulets or something? Good ES/Orbers use a rare orb and Peasant Crown? Of course not.
And yes, the best equip will easily save you from a couple of 16k FBs.
Really, your argument doesn't even have anything to do with ES vs non ES any more, all you're doing is changing the subject. You haven't given a single valid reason for vita sorcs being better than ES sorcs.
I never said they won't miss. But chances of missing in a close quarter duel or getting only ONE hit in is unlikely. I can easily say that I can make it hard for them to dodge my attacks?
What else would you wear inplace for frostburns + sojs if you're 105/117 FCR sorc?? magefist? bk?? etc?
Why would a ES sorc regen mana and a vita sorc wouldn't? I find that weird.
Again that's based on your opinion. I would argue skills > gears. I might have the best sorc gear but I can't duel properly. Also I agree good gear, not necessary godly gear as you implied in your original post. I dunno what realm you from but good sorc fcr resist ammy, fcr rings with high resist and good resist boots are hard to come by in some realms.
In SvS, one frame of fhr can make the difference where attacks come by at such a fast rate. Words can't express how well it performs until you actually try it. Similar to people saying 200%fcr > 105%fcr simply cause you cast faster?
If you read my posts thoroughly instead of criticizing everything, you'll see I have made many points. You havn't actually made many pts as well.. only saying mana is better since ES can tank your dmg and it will regenerate it time for another hit.
Also explain how am I changing the subject lol. I am saying why I believe vita is better while you argue ES is better. Fair enough?
If you want to continue then go ahead, proving any points on paper is pretty useless. That's why getting your hands dirty is the best way to test these things out.
In conclusion, there is no definate answer to which is better, both has its advantage. Do what fits your dueling style. If you play defensive and tele around waiting for your mana to regen then make ES, if you play offensive, go for vita where you'll tank more instant dmgs.
Is it really that hard to believe that you can dodge an attack that takes a second to travel across the screen? I don't know about you but I don't duel sorcs who are going to stay on your screen for more than a second if they haven't started shooting at you yet.RetroStar said:I never said they won't miss. But chances of missing in a close quarter duel or getting only ONE hit in is unlikely. I can easily say that I can make it hard for them to dodge my attacks?
The whole point was that ES sorcs don't need to use frostburns and sojs, are you even reading?RetroStar said:What else would you wear inplace for frostburns + sojs if you're 105/117 FCR sorc?? magefist? bk?? etc?
The more mana you have, the faster your mana regens. ES sorcs have much more mana, so their mana obviously regens faster.RetroStar said:Why would a ES sorc regen mana and a vita sorc wouldn't? I find that weird.
You're from East, where it is the easiest realm to find a good sorc fcr ammy. Are you serious?RetroStar said:Again that's based on your opinion. I would argue skills > gears. I might have the best sorc gear but I can't duel properly. Also I agree good gear, not necessary godly gear as you implied in your original post. I dunno what realm you from but good sorc fcr resist ammy, fcr rings with high resist and good resist boots are hard to come by in some realms.
In a duel, you easily cast more times than you are fhr'd. If you could only cast once every 30 seconds, then yes 200 FCR would have no advantage over 105 FCR.RetroStar said:In SvS, one frame of fhr can make the difference where attacks come by at such a fast rate. Words can't express how well it performs until you actually try it. Similar to people saying 200%fcr > 105%fcr simply cause you cast faster?
It's already been said that ES sorcs can take more burst damage than vita sorcs, but you refuse to even give an example of how vita sorcs can take more damage. You simply ignore it and change the subject.RetroStar said:If you read my posts thoroughly instead of criticizing everything, you'll see I have made many points. You havn't actually made many pts as well.. only saying mana is better since ES can tank your dmg and it will regenerate it time for another hit.
Also explain how am I changing the subject lol. I am saying why I believe vita is better while you argue ES is better. Fair enough?
If you want to continue then go ahead, proving any points on paper is pretty useless. That's why getting your hands dirty is the best way to test these things out.
In conclusion, there is no definate answer to which is better, both has its advantage. Do what fits your dueling style. If you play defensive and tele around waiting for your mana to regen then make ES, if you play offensive, go for vita where you'll tank more instant dmgs.
Neuroff said:Is it really that hard to believe that you can dodge an attack that takes a second to travel across the screen? I don't know about you but I don't duel sorcs who are going to stay on your screen for more than a second if they haven't started shooting at you yet.
The whole point was that ES sorcs don't need to use frostburns and sojs, are you even reading?
The more mana you have, the faster your mana regens. ES sorcs have much more mana, so their mana obviously regens faster.
You're from East, where it is the easiest realm to find a good sorc fcr ammy. Are you serious?
In a duel, you easily cast more times than you are fhr'd. If you could only cast once every 30 seconds, then yes 200 FCR would have no advantage over 105 FCR.
It's already been said that ES sorcs can take more burst damage than vita sorcs, but you refuse to even give an example of how vita sorcs can take more damage. You simply ignore it and change the subject.
Wow, a second to travel across the screen? @ 200%fcr?? Again this is how you duel. doesn't concern me. You like to play defensive then that's fine.
Yes I am reading, why don't they need to use frostburns/sojs?? Please explain.
And you're implying vita sorcs won't have any mana at all? Their mana pool is sufficient enough.
Read please. As I said, some realms don't offer these.
lol. why would a sorc cast every 30 seconds? Then a 200%fcr would have no difference than a 0%fcr sorc.. If you are put into FHR what makes you think a second attack won't hit again?
Read again. As I said, I've given more points than you've ever put. Yet you fail to acknowledge any, or counter the important facts I've placed but pick off silly points that have no relevance to this topic. Seems like you are the one trying to change the topic.
Btw, I've said for the 50th time, how am I changing the topic? Cause I don't agree with you? lol.
Also as I said before, writing all these is meaningless. Do you want to duel now since you are on? If you're not on my realm I can do TCP ones.
Predicting what would happen on paper won't represent what really happens in a duel such as ONE FB being cast every 30 second which takes 1 second to travel across a screen.
If you're not on my realm, I can make you a char on SP.
Predicting what would happen on paper won't represent what really happens in a duel such as ONE FB being cast every 30 second which takes 1 second to travel across a screen.
If you're not on my realm, I can make you a char on SP.
A fireball or lightning shot takes a second to travel across the screen.RetroStar said:Wow, a second to travel across the screen? @ 200%fcr?? Again this is how you duel. doesn't concern me. You like to play defensive then that's fine.
Because 200 FCR sorcs are STILL ES SORCS, and don't use frostburns and sojs?RetroStar said:Yes I am reading, why don't they need to use frostburns/sojs?? Please explain.
No, I said they don't have enough mana to be able to go without mana pots.RetroStar said:And you're implying vita sorcs won't have any mana at all? Their mana pool is sufficient enough.
Every realm has duped circlets, rings, and boots. Are you really serious?RetroStar said:Read please. As I said, some realms don't offer these.
Seriously, read what I wrote again. You CAST SPELLS much MORE OFTEN than you get put into HIT RECOVERY. The effect of casting faster is much more noticable than faster hit recovery. And really how is it supposed to help, if you are fhr'd, you're going to be stuck anyway.RetroStar said:lol. why would a sorc cast every 30 seconds? Then a 200%fcr would have no difference than a 0%fcr sorc.. If you are put into FHR what makes you think a second attack won't hit again?
Let's say a 200 FCR sorc hits you with an FB. This puts you into 6 frame recovery. During this time the sorc has shot another FB. You have 1 frame to get away. Too bad you can't cast a spell in that time.
RetroStar said:Read again. As I said, I've given more points than you've ever put. Yet you fail to acknowledge any, or counter the important facts I've placed but pick off silly points that have no relevance to this topic. Seems like you are the one trying to change the topic.
Really, you just avoided it again. ES sorcs can take JUST AS MUCH burst damage as a vita sorc. They easily take more damage over a duel. Where is the advantage?
We can duel later, I'm watching the NBA Playoffs.
Neuroff said:A fireball or lightning shot takes a second to travel across the screen.
Because 200 FCR sorcs are STILL ES SORCS, and don't use frostburns and sojs?
No, I said they don't have enough mana to be able to go without mana pots.
Every realm has duped circlets, rings, and boots. Are you really serious?
Seriously, read what I wrote again. You CAST SPELLS much MORE OFTEN than you get put into HIT RECOVERY. The effect of casting faster is much more noticable than faster hit recovery. And really how is it supposed to help, if you are fhr'd, you're going to be stuck anyway.
Let's say a 200 FCR sorc hits you with an FB. This puts you into 6 frame recovery. During this time the sorc has shot another FB. You have 1 frame to get away. Too bad you can't cast a spell in that time.
Really, you just avoided it again. ES sorcs can take JUST AS MUCH burst damage as a vita sorc. They easily take more damage over a duel. Where is the advantage?
We can duel later, I'm watching the NBA Playoffs.
Yes I know 200%FCR can be ES sorcs. Though if you read carefully, I've been saying all along there are 105/117%FCR ES sorcs as well. Look back a page or two.
A vita sorc can have enough mana to regenerate in time. No need for mana pots.
And you're assuming everyone can get these duped items? Yep.
FHR are also noticable in SvS when you are dmg'd by multiple spells. Also who's to say you cast more than you get hit? dueling is unpredictable. you can get off to a bad start.
In some circumstances yes, what if you get hit by a few attacks taking down your mana shield? Now rely on your measly 1.5k life to tank the rest of the dmg while you tele away waiting for your mana to regenerate.
Advantage is having higher life, stacking resist, controllable mana, non-over reliance on mana to survive.
When is this? What realm? Or send me a list of equip for this 'perfect' ES sorc of yours. I'll make it. Also Detroit in 6. We can duel @ halftime.
Neuroff said:Really, you just avoided it again. ES sorcs can take JUST AS MUCH burst damage as a vita sorc.
Equip of the "perfect" sorc would depend on what type of sorc you will use and what difficulty the duels are in.
Neuroff said:Equip of the "perfect" sorc would depend on what type of sorc you will use and what difficulty the duels are in.
Yes your choice. Whatever type suits you.
I will probably use a FBer.
This will take place in hell.
edit: also if you think I will 'cheat' 'hack' some ridiculous items i can show you a screenshot or tradescreen or drop all of the items i use.
40 Hoto Flail
2x 35/112/8 Spirit Monarch
6/6 Cta
Arachnid Mesh
35/13 Viper
Magefist
circlet
+2 sorc
20 FCR
90 Mana
30 Str
60 Life
2 Socket
Ammy
2 Sorc
20 FCR
110 Mana
60 Life
3 Mana per kill
10% regen mana
Rings
10 FCR
15 Res all
20 Str
40 Life
90 Mana
replenish life +10
Boots
30 r/w
20 FHR
20 Str
50 Res Cold/Fire/Light
20/20 Anni
20/20 Torch
9x 45 Life GCs
10x 20/17
2x 10 res, 20 mana, 20 Life, 7 FHR Jewels
10 res, 20 mana, 9 Str, 20 Life Jewel
2x 35/112/8 Spirit Monarch
6/6 Cta
Arachnid Mesh
35/13 Viper
Magefist
circlet
+2 sorc
20 FCR
90 Mana
30 Str
60 Life
2 Socket
Ammy
2 Sorc
20 FCR
110 Mana
60 Life
3 Mana per kill
10% regen mana
Rings
10 FCR
15 Res all
20 Str
40 Life
90 Mana
replenish life +10
Boots
30 r/w
20 FHR
20 Str
50 Res Cold/Fire/Light
20/20 Anni
20/20 Torch
9x 45 Life GCs
10x 20/17
2x 10 res, 20 mana, 20 Life, 7 FHR Jewels
10 res, 20 mana, 9 Str, 20 Life Jewel