Liberator // Vanquisher vs All comparison

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BTB_SnakEEyeS

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Liberator // Vanquisher vs All comparison

I have played V/T for some time now. Time to retire it. I'm thinking of making a Vanquisher or Liberator as my next PvP character.

I will be dueling on ladder vs All classes. I am looking for peoples opinions on the two variants. I know it will take me a while to get used to the new variant no matter which one is chosen. Which of the two variants is, or should be more successfull vs all in duels? Which of the two is harder to master?

I want to start a discussion comparing the two variants in ladder duels. I lack the experience with these two variants and would truly appreciate the opinions of those with experience in these two variants. I lack the time I used to have or I would build both. Could you all please help me choose between the two. So far V/T and this_barb have been helping me understand the two variants. I appreciate the help.

much thanks brethren. Happy new year.
 
BTB_SnakEEyeS said:
I have played V/T for some time now. Time to retire it. I'm thinking of making a Vanquisher or Liberator as my next PvP character.

I will be dueling on ladder vs All classes. I am looking for peoples opinions on the two variants. I know it will take me a while to get used to the new variant no matter which one is chosen. Which of the two variants is, or should be more successfull vs all in duels? Which of the two is harder to master?

I want to start a discussion comparing the two variants in ladder duels. I lack the experience with these two variants and would truly appreciate the opinions of those with experience in these two variants. I lack the time I used to have or I would build both. Could you all please help me choose between the two. So far V/T and this_barb have been helping me understand the two variants. I appreciate the help.

much thanks brethren. Happy new year.
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I have made a Liberator build but I haven't ever used a Vanquisher build at all. My opinion though would be that a vanquisher would be better vs ALL because of the Magical damage of hammer and the Ignore Target Defense properties of smite in PvP. Also a Vanqiusher can also charge as well and have decent damage as a third option. The Liberator on the other hand just has pure charge damage and weak smite damage. The problem with charge is not only is it buggy still but it relys on AR unlike smite.
 
i had a vanquisher.. it was hard to use

had to get in really close to deal damage. it was super defensive.
 
liberators have problems against summone hybrid necros...
5k+ bs dmg and 15+ minions stacked with amp and decrept is deadly.

i think windies can also pose as a big problem for libs since minion st ack and since libs have slower fcr itll be like eating a slow hammerdin.

never seen a vanquisher

dont get me wrong libs are strong (i have one myself) but all classes have thier flaws.. i say u go with libs over vanquishers since they have more hammer damage and less gear restrictions.
 
Tor said:
i had a vanquisher.. it was hard to use
had to get in really close to deal damage. it was super defensive.
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This is basically what "this_barb" mentioned as a possible trouble spot. He mentioned that he thought the Vanquisher lacked a long range attack.

Weren't you still able to charge in name-lock to get in close enough?

It bothers me that you "had" a Vanquisher... like it didnt work out and you scrapped it. I don't want to spend a couple rough months learning to duel with a new build that gets beat down and I eventually find as dismal and need to scrap.
 
dkay said:
liberators have problems against summone hybrid necros...
5k+ bs dmg and 15+ minions stacked with amp and decrept is deadly.

i think windies can also pose as a big problem for libs since minion st ack and since libs have slower fcr itll be like eating a slow hammerdin.

never seen a vanquisher

dont get me wrong libs are strong (i have one myself) but all classes have thier flaws.. i say u go with libs over vanquishers since they have more hammer damage and less gear restrictions.
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liberators dont have any problems with minion stackers, really. namelocking charge bypasses minions if you didnt know. thats how you kill necros and wind druids. you push them out of their stack and then cast hammers. charge lock alone kills them also (as long as you have high charge damage)
 
HandofElysium said:
I have made a Liberator build but I haven't ever used a Vanquisher build at all. My opinion though would be that a vanquisher would be better vs ALL because of the Magical damage of hammer and the Ignore Target Defense properties of smite in PvP. Also a Vanqiusher can also charge as well and have decent damage as a third option. The Liberator on the other hand just has pure charge damage and weak smite damage. The problem with charge is not only is it buggy still but it relys on AR unlike smite.
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This is almost exactly what V/T told me.

V/T said:
Charge is to buggy imo. Then you also have to deal with 75% block which mean your charge will miss most of the time. You also have to get enough AR to get through there defence. This is hard to do with the gear you need for a hammer based pally. Charge is really only good vs low defence people.

Smite is unblockable and doesn't need AR. The long range attack on a vanq is there hammers. The problen with a lib is if someone gets in close from the bottom you have nothing you can do but run and hammer more or run and charge back.

Don't get me wrong libby's are good but for overall pubby duels I would rather have a vanq. Especally with grief. Hard to beat 8k hammers and 6k smite. throw in a charge on a vanq that is still probally like 5-6k and if it hit it will still hurt some
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BTB_SnakEEyeS said:
This is almost exactly what V/T told me.
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honestly i plan on using grief on my liberator when it comes to non ladder. it makes even a weak base lvl 1 smite/base lvl 1 holy shield paladin have great smite damage. thats the problem with the new runewords, zzz. anyway.

charge can be buggy but you learn to work around it. the pros of charge really outweigh its cons.

you cant determine the value of charge through statistics and written information. also, if youve ever been to a private duel. you'd know that there rarely is a caster that has 75% block. i'm not talking about the casual dueler either, im talking about the elite duelers.
 
BTB_SnakEEyeS said:
This is basically what "this_barb" mentioned as a possible trouble spot. He mentioned that he thought the Vanquisher lacked a long range attack.

Weren't you still able to charge in name-lock to get in close enough?

It bothers me that you "had" a Vanquisher... like it didnt work out and you scrapped it. I don't want to spend a couple rough months learning to duel with a new build that gets beat down and I eventually find as dismal and need to scrap.
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i have 11k hammers, 11k charge, 75 fcr, 86 fhr.
 
this_barb said:
i have 11k hammers, 11k charge, 75 fcr, 86 fhr.
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So you opted to put your pts into blessed aim for the passive ar and synergy boost and left holy shield with 1 pt in it hunh?

You said you have to wait til after lvl 85 to equip your new lib... why so late? what kinda gear do you have him strapped up with
 
BTB_SnakEEyeS said:
So you opted to put your pts into blessed aim for the passive ar and synergy boost and left holy shield with 1 pt in it hunh?

You said you have to wait til after lvl 85 to equip your new lib... why so late? what kinda gear do you have him strapped up with
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technically, i dont have to go to 85+, but all my pvp characters have always been level 91+ so its just a force of habit. im deciding to use coa on my liberator (ill still have 75% fcr).
 
Even though I'm not an expert, I don't think it is wise charging (namelock or shift) at a minion stacker. Timely teleport and hammer with some strategies should do the job versus minion stackers.

I'd seen many 1vs1 duels between competent hammerdin variant and minion stacking bone necro, and the hammerdin variant won most duels because he was patient enough to tear down all the minions before attacking the necro. As a stacker you don't want to stack/tele too much vs hammers or stray hammers will get you. When you don't tele, then your minions will wander around and become easy targets for hammers. So in the end, if the hammerdin variant is patient and has some terrain strategies, then your chances are alot better vs minion stackers.
 
only if the hammerdin/lib dysync charges (which he will)
ive seen a good minion stacking marrow bugged necro kill some good hammerdins using thorned hulks and decrepting the pally. i only have 2 points in revives (from a wand too) and i get 15 summons.. imagine a necro that maxed it.. tahts a lot of patience you need, not to mention a marrow bugged necro can ahve maximum bonespirit/spear damage/ 125 fcr/ and well above 25 revives...

edit: of course the lib can always do what i do and just go to town.. go downstairs and get a nice drink or do something productive.. when you come back all his minions should be dead.
 
dkay said:
of course the lib can always do what i do and just go to town.. go downstairs and get a nice drink or do something productive.. when you come back all his minions should be dead.
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\

Aha the best stratagy in my opinion. :D
 
when was charge ever considered melee? and also i can simply namelock the necro or wind druid out of his stack. its not as hard as you think and it is more time productive than killing off his minions first. also thorns is reduced greatly in pvp as long as you dont hit any of his minions.
 
this_barb said:
when was charge ever considered melee? and also i can simply namelock the necro or wind druid out of his stack. its not as hard as you think and it is more time productive than killing off his minions first. also thorns is reduced greatly in pvp as long as you dont hit any of his minions.
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I used to watch my brother's hammerdin dueling 1v1 against his friend's necros, minion stacker and pure bone nec (both have 75block 50dr). A good necro will set up chain bone spirits in your direction before teleporting away, finding a puddle to setup another set of chain bone spirits. In most of these duels, if the paladin mindlessly namelock charges or namelock teleports at the necro, the necro gets the easy victories because of chain spirits.
 
mortic said:
I used to watch my brother's hammerdin dueling 1v1 against his friend's necros, minion stacker and pure bone nec (both have 75block 50dr). A good necro will set up chain bone spirits in your direction before teleporting away, finding a puddle to setup another set of chain bone spirits. In most of these duels, if the paladin mindlessly namelock charges or namelock teleports at the necro, the necro gets the easy victories because of chain spirits.
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If a necromancer plays this defensively, then you have to switch your style as well. Desync charging with vigor always works. the point of charge is not to kill the person directly but push him out of his stack so your hammers will not have to go through 15 of his minions before hitting him.
 
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