Infernal Pit SpecialChest runs: high probability of Zod and other HRs

Really tired of naysayers that chime in with one line of negativity, backed up by no proof. You want to crap all over his work, saying it isn't statistically significant - prove it. Do the sigma math. Show the odds that it's statistically nothing.

OP - congrats on Zod and glad you are exploring this.
 
Really tired of naysayers that chime in with one line of negativity, backed up by no proof. You want to crap all over his work, saying it isn't statistically significant - prove it. Do the sigma math. Show the odds that it's statistically nothing.

OP - congrats on Zod and glad you are exploring this.
I think the issue is one of overselling a small sample
Titling the thread with "High Probability" without any probabilities demonstrated is also a bit untoward
 
I did quite a bit of research on Act 5 superchests when the question came up in the Zodathon. I know that zticazzy did some running of them, as did I, but no conclusions were made.

I'll add some links from things I said about the subject in the past.

For further information: as far as I know, Act 5 special and sparkly chests are just, to put it in highly techincal language, weird as all hell and don't really make sense given how we look at chests elsewhere. If someone, or a group of someones, wanted to do an extensive set of testing on them, that would be fantastic. However, they remain an unknown so the testing should be for the joy of testing, not with the expectation of a reward.

If reading those posts has you confused...good. The only person to ever really say much about them was jjscud, that I could find, and his comments essentially boiled down to "they're different."
 
So, I've done a few hundred runs myself on the Infernal Pit chest and found absolutely nothing. My friend told me he found 3 HR's in less than 2 hours, maybe he's trolling me xD

I will try some more runs, because I want to believe that this is true (but I don't have any hope on this).
 
I probably going to try and do at least 600 runs before writing them off completely. About 250 in. I am struggling to do them though. The long S&E time makes the runs drag on. At least with LK runs they feel fast and they feel like you are accomplishing 6x as much with them.
 
Very nice topic!! Started Infernal Pit runs today, and see the results:
Ist.png
Cham.png


=))) ill keep running
 
Very nice topic!! Started Infernal Pit runs today, and see the results:
Ist.png
Cham.png


=))) ill keep running


Nice one. How many runs did you do? Not sure if I am doing it right. I just did another 135 (385 total) and the highest I have from it is a Ko.

215 more to go until I hit 600.
 
I did about 50 runs today, im running /players 7 (single player ofc), and im opening every container on the way to special chest, got Ist from container and cham from SC.
Im doing this: LK, shrenk and eld, abaddon, infernal pit and pindle (all players 7) with my lvl 92 light sorc, just made infinity, loving it! next ill make CoH and eth fort =) gl bro! ill keep u guys know about another hrs
 
Nice one. How many runs did you do? Not sure if I am doing it right. I just did another 135 (385 total) and the highest I have from it is a Ko.

215 more to go until I hit 600.
by the way, found Gul rune at pits SC (lvl 2) =) today was nice
 
Thanks to all of you who got interested in the subject, commented or participated in this thread! As I mentioned above, there are only two ways to establish for sure whether the IP SC has higher probabilities of dropping a HR. It is either to get to the hardcoded mathematical equations that describe the unit generation procedure and see if there are any coefficients or parameters in addition to the treasureclasses table values, or mount up significant amount of data by many gamers (like it was done with the LK chests). Obviously, my knowledge and area of expertise do not cover any programming, so I have to stick to collecting data, lots of data. That is why I truly appreciate every participant in this discussion – this is the only chance to gather sufficient amount of evidence, in case I succeed in convincing you that this topic is hot and should be researched further.

Here what I state:

1. There is a hardcoded parameter in D2, which goes with each potential dropper, that influences the probabilities of certain objects to be dropped (like Zod for Cows).

2. Due to this parameter Infernal Pit SC has higher probabilities of a HR drop than any other container in Act 5 (H).

I reached such a conclusion after my abnormal IP SC runs experience (see OP) followed by invaluable discussion I had in this thread.

So, since I cannot technically prove my statement (not being a programmer) I collected more evidence making additional 6,000 dual PoA – IP “short” runs (3 sets with 2,000 runs each) on a NEW map at p7. I present the results below:

I. Summary of 3 sets (A, B, C) of runs (PoA & IP)

II. Probability calculations

III. Screenshots of all HRs


I.

% SC – an average probability to get a rune from a SpecialChest

% (Lum+) SC – an average probability to get a Lum+ rune from a SpecialChest

% (Pul+) SC – an average probability to get a HR from a SpecialChest

% Unique – an average probability to get a Unique drop/unit from a SpecialChest


PIT OF ACHERON

A. 1 – 2,000 runs (total of 2,000 runs)

233 SC runes

Runes (Lum–Lem): 4 x Lum, 2 x Ko, 1 x Fal, 1 x Lem

HRs (Pul+): 1 x Pul, 1 x Ist, 1 x Gul, 1 x Vex, 1 x Lo

% SC = 11.7%

% (Lum+) SC = 0.65%

% (Pul+) SC = 0.25%

45 SC Unique drops (76 units total)

% Unique = 2.3% (drops) or 3.8% (unit)


B. 2,001 – 4,000 runs (total of 2,000 runs)

193 SC runes

Runes (Lum–Lem): 2 x Lum, 3 x Ko

HRs (Pul+): 2 x Pul, 1 x Um, 1 x Mal, 1 x Vex

% SC = 9.7%

% (Lum+) SC = 0.50%

% (Pul+) SC = 0.25%

32 SC Unique drops (43 units total)

% Unique = 1.6% (drops) or 2.2% (unit)


C. 4,001 – 6,000 runs (total of 2,000 runs)

226 SC runes

Runes (Lum–Lem): 1 x Lum, 1 x Ko, 1 x Lem

HRs (Pul+): 1 x Pul, 1 x Um, 1 x Jah

% SC = 11.3%

% (Lum+) SC = 0.30%

% (Pul+) SC = 0.15%

32 SC Unique drops (51 units total)

% Unique = 1.6% (drops) or 2.6% (unit)


Summary of 6,000 Pit of Acheron runs

652 SC runes

16 Runes (Lum–Lem): 7 x Lum, 6 x Ko, 1 x Fal, 2 x Lem

13 HRs (Pul+): 4 x Pul, 2 x Um, 1 x Mal, 1 x Ist, 1 x Gul, 2 x Vex, 1 x Lo, 1 x Jah

% SC = 10.9%

% (Lum+) SC = 0.48%

% (Pul+) SC = 0.22%

109 SC Unique drops (170 units total)

% Unique = 1.8% (drops) or 2.8% (unit)

22 Runes (El–Eld): 12 x El, 10 x Eld


INFERNAL PIT

A. 1 – 2,000 runs (total of 2,000 runs)

210 SC runes

Runes (Lum–Lem): 4 x Lum, 3 x Ko, 3 x Fal, 2 x Lem

HRs (Pul+): 1 x Pul, 1 x Um, 1 x Mal, 1 x Ber

% SC = 10.5%

% (Lum+) SC = 0.80%

% (Pul+) SC = 0.20%

38 SC Unique drops (49 units total)

% Unique = 1.9% (drops) or 2.5% (unit)


B. 2,001 – 4,000 runs (total of 2,000 runs)

181 SC runes

Runes (Lum–Lem): 3 x Lum, 1 x Ko, 1 x Lem

HRs (Pul+): 1 x Pul, 1 x Um, 1 x Ist, 1 x Gul, 1 x Ohm, 1 x Ber

% SC = 9.1%

% (Lum+) SC = 0.55%

% (Pul+) SC = 0.30%

35 SC Unique drops (49 units total)

% Unique = 1.8% (drops) or 2.5% (unit)


C. 4,001 – 6,000 runs (total of 2,000 runs)

210 SC runes

Runes (Lum–Lem): 1 x Lum, 4 x Ko, 2 x Fal, 3 x Lem

HRs (Pul+): 1 x Pul, 1 x Ist, 1 x Gul, 1 x Sur

% SC = 10.5%

% (Lum+) SC = 0.70%

% (Pul+) SC = 0.20%

33 SC Unique drops (40 units total)

% Unique = 1.7% (drops) or 2.0% (unit)


Summary of 6,000 Infernal Pit runs

601 SC runes

27 Runes (Lum–Lem): 8 x Lum, 8 x Ko, 5 x Fal, 6 x Lem

14 HRs (Pul+): 3 x Pul, 2 x Um, 1 x Mal, 2 x Ist, 2 x Gul, 1 x Ohm, 1 x Sur, 2 x Ber

% SC = 10.0%

% (Lum+) SC = 0.68%

% (Pul+) SC = 0.23%

106 SC Unique drops (138 units total)

% Unique = 1.8% (drops) or 2.3% (unit)

17 Runes (El–Eld): 15 x El, 2 x Eld
 
II.

In order to make valid assumptions, I had to calculate the probabilities based on treuseclasses.txt data and then compare it to the obtained results.

Code:
TC          Prob3    R01/Prob1    Probability01, %    R02/Prob2    Probability02, %
Runes 9     180       Lum/3            1.622            Ko/2          1.081
Runes 10    360       Fal/3            0.822            Lem/2         0.548
Runes 11    720       Pul/3            0.414            Um/2          0.276
Runes 12    1066      Mal/3            0.280            Ist/2         0.187
Runes 13    1519      Gul/3            0.197            Vex/2         0.131
Runes 14    2170      Ohm/3            0.138            Lo/2          0.092
Runes 15    2941      Sur/3            0.102            Ber/2         0.068
Runes 16    3957      Jah/3            0.076            Cham/1        0.025
Runes 17    5170      Zod/1            0.019             N/A           N/A

Probabilities 01 and 02 (in %) show the chances of runes 01 and 02 of the corresponding TC being dropped WHEN this TC is chosen. I use italic to distinguish TC rune probabilities and dropping rune probabilities (no italic). (Unfortunately, the table code does not allow italic in the body of the table – be aware: it is supposed to be italic!)


So, when the game decides to drop a rune an algorithm goes from TC Runes 17 [1/5171 (0.019%) for YES for Zod + 5170/5171 for NO] to Runes 16 (next TC). Then analogously it chooses either 3/3961 (0.076%) for YES for Jah followed by 1/3961 (0.025%) for YES for Cham or 3957/3961 for NO to go to Runes 15. And so on… It repeats the cycles until the first YES or it reaches TC Runes 1.

This is the way how I got Probabilities 01 and 02 (in %). Now, by adding up these values (for each TC) we can calculate the total chances for all HRs (or Lum+ runes). Again, these chances are NOT for the chest but for a dropped rune to be a HR.

Prob(Pul+) = Prob(Zod) + Prob(Cham) + … + Prob(Pul) = 2.005% – a calculated probability of a dropped rune (Act 5/Hell) to be a HR

Prob(Lum+) = Prob(Zod) + Prob(Cham) + … + Prob(Lum) = 6.078% – a calculated probability of a dropped rune (Act 5/Hell) to be Lum+

At the same time, in order to get a probability of any PARTICULAR rune to appear from any dropper (Act V/Hell) we have to multiply A*B, where A is a probability of appearance of a rune from this object, and B is a probability of a dropped rune to be this PARTICULAR rune. For example, the probability of Lo rune in IP SC = 14/130 * Prob(Lo).

Prob(Lo) = [1-(1-Prob(Zod))*(1-Prob(Cham+Jah))*(1-Prob(Sur+Ber))*(1-Prob(Ohm))]*Prob(Lo)= [1-(1-1/5171)*(1-4/3961)*(1-5/2946)*(1-3/2175)]*(2/2175) = 0.00092 or 0.092%.

It should be repeated that all the calculations above were based solely on data from “treusureclasses.txt”.

Now, we can obtain an expected number of all HRs for 100 dropped runes, or in my case, for 600 dropped runes or 6,000 runs. In fact, the SCs in Act 5mini-levels produces on average 1 rune in 10 runs, which is very convenient for the calculations :). Indeed, both the theory (14/130 = 10.77%) and my experience (10.5% Abaddon Map 1; 10.9% PoA Map 2; 10.5% IP Map 1 and 10.0% IP Map 2) lay in full accordance, allowing me to round it up to 10% for easy handling.

The following table gives a comparison between the calculated values and the experienced PoA / IP results.

Code:
Rune      Prob, %    Exp(6,000)    PoA(6,000)    IP(6,000)
Zod       0.019       0.12             0             0
Cham      0.025       0.15             0             0
Jah       0.076       0.45             1             0
Ber       0.068       0.41             0             2
Sur       0.102       0.61             0             1
Lo        0.092       0.55             1             0
Ohm       0.138       0.83             0             1
Vex       0.130       0.78             2             0
Gul       0.196       1.18             1             2
Ist       0.185       1.11             1             2
Mal       0.278       1.67             1             1
Um        0.271       1.63             2             2
Pul       0.408       2.45             4             3
HR(Pul+)  1.988       11.94            13            14
Lem       0.533       3.20             2             6
Fal       0.806       4.84             1             5
Ko        1.029       6.17             6             8
Lum       1.568       9.41             7             8
Lum–Zod   5.924       35.56            29            41
El+Eld    3.843       23.06            22            17
Prob, % = Probability, % – is a chance for a dropped rune to be a certain rune
Exp(6,000) – Number of expected runes for 6,000 SC runs
PoA(6,000) – Number of runes found in PoA (6,000 runs)
IP(6,000) – Number of runes found in IP (6,000 runs)

Unfortunately, there was no constant “runic shower” this time, and the obtained data appear much closer to the expected values than when I got my first IP SC runs experience. Nevertheless, I consider these results supporting my theory of better chances of HRs in the IP SC. Remember, I started doing these runs solely in attempt to prove that there are more parameters in D2 that influence a probability of a dropped rune, and IP is a champion among other chests. I got the results that confirm that! Yes, this is just 6,000 runs, it is not enough to make the final conclusion, but my results exceed the expected numbers by 15-17% (in terms of number of HRs and Lum+). And IP is definitely better than PoA, as it was better than Abaddon in my first trial. However, this could be statistically proven only by multiple participants and many, many more runs…

So, if I am correct, and there is a parameter that increases a HR probability for the IP SC than only one of two following scenarios could be realized:

A. Extra HRs come by additional rune generation (increased chances of TC Runes 17 appearance). In other words, it means more runes in general from the SC.

B. Extra HRs come in expense of other runes within the same TC Runes 17 – Runes 1 sequence. In other words, better quality of the dropped runes.


My running experience does not support A. As I showed above, runes were dropped in 10% cases like the theory suggests. I have not seen any deviation from this number in either mini-level.

Thus, B is the case. To check this hypothesis I calculated the total amount of all El +Eld runes (TC Runes 1 class); as it should be lower than the theoretical value.

Prob(El+Eld) = (1-Prob(Zod))*(1-Prob(Cham+Jah))*(1-Prob(Sur+Ber))*…*(1-Prob(Nef+Tir)) = (1-1/5171)*(1-4/3961)*(1-5/2946)*…*(1-5/7) = 0.03843 or 3.843%.

After 6,000 runs (600 runes) one should expect 23 El & Eld runes basing on the treasureclasses file. Well, I got only 17, which is 26% short. I suppose that might be another tiny piece of evidence for my theory.

I do not know what the final truth is; I am just modeling the satisfying explanation. Hope, one day it will be enough data gathered to be certain in according conclusions!..
 
III.

Pit of Acheron: 13 HRs (Pul+): 4 x Pul, 2 x Um, Mal, Ist, Gul, 2 x Vex, Lo, Jah

Infernal Pit: 14 HRs (Pul+): 3 x Pul, 2 x Um, Mal, 2 x Ist, 2 x Gul, Ohm, Sur, 2 x Ber


1. Pul rune, PoA SC, p7
View attachment 10240

2. Pul rune, PoA SC, p7
View attachment 10241

3. Pul rune, PoA SC, p7
View attachment 10242

4. Pul rune, PoA SC, p7
View attachment 10243

5. Pul rune, IP SC, p7
View attachment 10244

6. Pul rune, IP SC, p7
View attachment 10245

7. Pul rune, IP SC, p7
View attachment 10246

8. Um rune, PoA SC, p7
View attachment 10247

9. Um rune, PoA SC, p7
View attachment 10248

10. Um rune, IP SC, p7
View attachment 10249
 
the obtained data appear much closer to the expected values than when I got my first IP SC runs experience. Nevertheless, I consider these results supporting my theory of better chances of HRs in the IP SC.
why?
 

What I meant to say was that "I have not managed to prove that my first IP experience (7 HRs including Cham & Zod) was typical for the IP SC, however the collected evidence still gave a strong support for my theory".
I would not have written so if the results for 6,000 runs were 15-17% BELOW the expected values. But they were higher, as I had expected.
To see the whole picture, including a reliable quantitive estimation of the HRs probabilities, we need to obtain enough data for statistical conclusions, where my total of 8,000 IP SC runs might serve as an initial input for further research.
 
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