Definition of "taint"

[nepeta]

I don't like the schism

So true. It really sucks. Gone the days of untroubled prancing about through the entire world of SP D2, gone like legit players on bnet...

I envision the majority, already the active majority, although NOT the moral majority, but let me not digress, the majority, as said, using RRM/RWM. I'm not going into my opinion of that, again, but let it held as an observation. Even salvo has gone RRM/RWM, that's telling tales... The future lies inevitably in the hands of the mod-users. nepeta has spoken, rest ye merry gentlemen and -women, I wish thee well

and i blame durf

I'm not religious, so I'll have to disagree with you here (Nice tar btb)

 

[Shagsbeard]

There was a poll last month that belies that. The vanilla players out number us RRM/RWM players two to one.

 

[Reborn2k]

There was a poll last month that belies that. The vanilla players out number us RRM/RWM players two to one.

I think the question of importance here is how many vanilla players (don't) mind MPing with RWM/RRMers.

 

[Hakai_no_Tenshi]

So true. It really sucks. Gone the days of untroubled prancing about through the entire world of SP D2, gone like legit players on bnet...

I envision the majority, already the active majority, although NOT the moral majority, but let me not digress, the majority, as said, using RRM/RWM. I'm not going into my opinion of that, again, but let it held as an observation. Even salvo has gone RRM/RWM, that's telling tales... The future lies inevitably in the hands of the mod-users. nepeta has spoken, rest ye merry gentlemen and -women, I wish thee well




I'm not religious, so I'll have to disagree with you here (Nice tar btb)

Still pure vanilla LoD for me even after all these years

--T

 

[RTB]

- Ban RWM/RRM (don't!)
- Have RWM/RRM accepted as a natural part of the game. I mean, what about ATMA? Instantaneous muling? Infinite stashes? Is there anyone around here who doesn't use it (except Mac users...)?

I could 'discontinue' the mods and advise people to stay away from them. But yeah, now that they're out, there's no stopping them. Especially after what Blizzard pulled when they released 1.11.

Playing 1.10 Vanilla LoD too. 1.11 will not get me.

 

[Phosheez]

where's rizzo? He'd make things calm in a snap. Personally I will not debate on whether or not RRM and RWM are shady. I, however, am vanilla and will remain so. Though it doesnt make a difference anyway, because I dont do trading.

 

[SkaMan]

I think Denton intended his post to be a source of information for the many newcomers we get here. I don't think Denton intended to start a debate on any of these subjects. It's good, because I can understand how someone new to these forums could be confused by all the vanilla/RWM/RRM/'taint' talk. I can see how someone could be confused when we as a community loath the use of 3rd party programs which change the game from the way blizz packaged it, although we endorse the use of ATMA.
However, I'll throw in my lot:

RWM - I have absolutely no problem with the fact that the community is split down the middle (or perhaps off-centre :grin. I personally use the mod, and I love having the extra runewords that I had access to on bnet (I played bnet for a long time before coming here). I can also see how the vanilla players, many of whom have been playing vanilla for many years, would like to keep their characters/items that way.

RRM - Similar to Reborn2k, I believe that this is more of a 'cheat' (I use the term very loosely) than RWM, because if changes the game in a way that is not available in any way that blizzard intended it to be played (whereas RWM simply simulates bnet). I probably feel quite strongly about this because I used to play as part of a legit hardcore group on bnet, and I know firsthand how much maphack ruined simple gameplay. The ability to colour runes was a 'feature' of maphack. I guess this might sound a bit hypocritical, seeing as in SP we get to keep our maps, but at least I found it myself.

I in no way intended to offend any RRM users in this, just wanted to state my opinion. Personally I have no problem with anyone using RWM/RRM, as I rarely MP, and every item I have traded for I have deleted without using.

@Denton - Nice post man :thumbsup:

 

[Denton]

SkaMan - Thanks. You're right. This thread slid in a bit different direction than I was hoping it would. When I was writing the first post, I intended it to give a rough idea about taint to those who don't know what it is, especially to new members of the SPF.

Respecting the "taint", is the backbone of a safe and successful trading/MP'ing environment. Although I agree to Shagsbeard that one could be tainted even by his/her unethical play style, but I believe that compromises must be made to make things go smoothly. By this I mean that separating the players even further by their playing style, would be unpractical. Actually I think this has already happened somewhat; the speak of HF-rushes and using loopholes in certain quests has probably forced many players to keep themselves away from trading and MP'ing, in order not to feel "tainted", which I fully understand and respect.

Actually, there's been few times when I've thought myself: "I'm feeling a bit dirty... oh well, maybe not showering in 3 days has something to do with it. *continues playing*"

I think that the words of a certain wise man would be in place: Unfortunately no one can be told what the taint is, you have to see it for yourself. :badteeth:

 

[Llathias]

Definitely a FAQ worthy explanation - thanks Denton!

I would like to copy&paste a paragraph I wrote in this thread, post #21, for I feel that it might contribute to this informative thread:

A tainted item is painted. When a character gets a tainted item, his/her hands are stained by the paint, so every item that character finds and picks up also gets the paint. If you pass a painted item to another character... yes, that's right: the hands become painted. This paint is special in that it doesn't dry and can't be erased. Because of this special feature, it's called "taint" instead of "paint".

 

[Cloud_Walker]

I'd like to add why I think “taint†is “taint,†or why “taint†has the property of never erasing and never drying. I'll use the two most common examples:

RWM “taint:†Let's say you make Harmony and Oath and Obedience using the runewords unlocked by this mod. You trade them all for good gear seeing as they are good runewords. For Harmony you got a Skullder’s Ire and Occy and Shako from someone who really needed it, which massively improved your Sorc’s MF and killing power and allowed you to find many good items over many runs. These items you of course subsequently traded to get more of what you needed, which in turn allowed you to advance other characters (unintentionally MFing as you do so) and equip better MF gear on others, allowing you to find even more items, and so on. Many of these items would not have been found by you if you had not made and traded that Harmony. The person to whom you originally traded your Harmony goes through the same experience. Maybe the bow itself allowed him/her to run Cows faster and with more MF gear and find good items that he would not have found otherwise. No doubt the Oath and Obedience allowed others to kill and MF more efficiently. The “taint†ends up spreading far and wide even if you are the only one who's made an unlocked runeword. Of course, the reality is much ‘worse’ than that, because many people have made and subsequently traded “Ladder Only†runewords.

RRM “taint:†On a Cow run with your LF Zon a red Um rune catches your eye that you otherwise wouldn’t have noticed. You have a 3 socket Mythical Sword in your stash from a previous run and you decide to make a Crescent Moon. It comes out with great stats and you decide to trade it. The nearest Tesladin trades for it a T-Gods, +2 Valkyrie Wing, and a Mara’s, allowing you to run Cows faster and on a higher players setting. Because of this you find many other valuable socketables and runes and charms and jewels, many of which you would not have if that Um rune was white and you missed it. The Tesladin tries out his new sword on a Baal run and, lo and behold, Baal drops Tal’s armor! He equips the armor on his Sorc, who with Tal’s belt and ammy now has significant extra MF. Over the course of many Meph runs with his Sorc, he finds many good items he would not have found if he didn’t have the Tal’s armor equipped. Etc, etc. As with the RWM, the “taint†ends up spreading far and wide even if you are the only one seeing red runes. And again, the reality is much ‘worse’ because no doubt many have picked up a rune because it was red but would have missed it if it was white.

Now, some may say that SP has advantages over the Realms, namely map constancy. This is true. However, the distinction is not between Single Player and Multiplayer, it is between modified and unmodified games. Given that we’re all playing Single Player, the fact that we get static maps isn’t relevant. There’s meant to be inherent differences between Single Player and Multiplayer, the most prominent of which is obvious. I also consider ATMA a taint, because it’s a third party intervention in the gaming experience. Sure, one might say, you could make tons and tons of characters to hold all of your items and buy a second copy of Diablo II and a second computer and mule them in TCP/IP games (or just get a friend), but ATMA just makes these possibilities granted by Blizzard easier. In response to that I’d say RRM does the same thing. You can choose to the spend the time carefully searching large piles of white items (which I’m sure often turn up in Players 8 setting), or you can get RRM which just makes this possibility granted by Blizzard easier.

Personally, I chose my level of “taint†to be ATMA and no more. Fortunately, the fact that ATMA is universally accepted here in combination with the fact that there’s also a divide between “ATMA only†and “ATMA plus a couple other mods†allows me to stay at the minimal level of “taintedness†that I’m at. IMO the only true “vanilla†players are ones who don’t even use ATMA and don’t trade with anyone that does.

 

[Shagsbeard]

The wonderful thing about ATMA is that if you trade with someone using it, you know for a fact that ATMA was used. There is no concealing that form of "taint".

 

[Rizzo]

....Personally....IMO....

This is really the crux of the issue. People have different ethics and moral codes, and what's right for you may not be for someone else. To define a "taint" is a hard nut to crack, since there are so many different ways to get tainted, and so many different levels of taint (the rrm, rwm and atma for instance). The best way to handle the situation would be, as many people already does, to let others know what you're using. If you use rwm then state it when you trade/mp/giveaway/whatever. Then people can decide whether they want to get "tainted" and join. The only true way to ever stay "clean" would be to never let "outer sources" affect your item pool, never mp and never use any kind of helpful add-on to the game.
Let people have their fun, as long as they follow the rules of the spf and respect the other forumites.

 

[Cloud_Walker]

Correct. I don't think there's a right or wrong way to play as long as you aren't messing with another player's game by "tainting" them.

 

[water_moon]

Playing 1.10 Vanilla LoD too. 1.11 will not get me.

Same here

And I'll agree with cheat taint transfering, but I think it matters how certain mods are used. I'm more forgiving of a tourney who included RWM (but no ladder rune words allowed) than an MP game. So long as the tourneys are untwinked. The key to fairness -and the whole point of rules with tourneys- is that everyone is on a level playing field. Having Oath enabled doesn't do you much good if you aren't allowed to use it anyway. This is why I'm less fond of RRM, it can't be turned off.

Anyway, there's my $.02. I don't play with any mods, but I do make cookies for all!

 

[AlterEgo]

Not a bad definition of taint, I suppose. Though I personally have never liked that term. I prefer "modded". It'll never catch on, but I will continue to say it. :azn:

This issue won't make the SPF FAQ. It is too controversial and no concensus have ever been reached, nor will it likely happen. Everyone has their own opinion of what constitutes "tainted" items or characters.

I do want to reiterate what others have said. Vanilla player do out-number those who play mods (check the most recent poll). You might not know this from the volume (quantity) of posts or from the volume (noise) of expression, but it's true. This has been the case for years, and seems to be holding. Mod users are in the minority in this forum, despite the recruiting efforts.

(1.10 no mods player here. I seem to be in good company. )

 

[Denton]

The reason I started this thread, is because I've been worried that some members might not know or understand what is a "taint" and why should it be respected. This could lead into interaction between non-modded("vanilla") and modded("tainted") players, which in turn could ruin a non-modded player's D2 experience, by effectively restricting their trading- and MP'ing possibilities, thus forcing either a restart, or to forget trading and MP'ing with non-modded people, because they don't want to become... "tainted"(Yes, I personally prefer the word tainted. It sounds scarier, so maybe it's easier to respect?).

Now when I read it again, I see that my definition of "taint" isn't flawless, not by far. I should have put more time into it, phrasing it in a better way.


But as it is, I believe this will be a reasonably good thread to refer to, when explaining someone why non-modded and modded people shouldn't trade/MP between each other, if the non-modded wishes to stay non-modded in in the eyes of other non-modded players.

Thanks for all the input so far and by all means, keep it coming.

 

[Ardo]

Humm... Can i check somewhere if i am Tainted?

-Edit- Err... I think i have understood it wrong. Theres noway to see it right? Its just like... A feeling, that you haven't played right?

 

[Kefir-Tribe1]

Humm... Can i check somewhere if i am Tainted?

-Edit- Err... I think i have understood it wrong. Theres noway to see it right? Its just like... A feeling, that you haven't played right?

Of course you'll know if your items are RWM/RRM "tainted". Just answer these simple questions:

*Do you use any of these mods?

*Have you traded, accepted giveaways or played in multi player games with users of these mods (users which not keep separate stashes or anything)?

edit:
*And have you by any way been in contact with mods in second, third or... hand?

 

[Ardo]

Hum, No i havent. I meant more like... being Tainted doesnt mean that you will have like... some sign infront of ur char or so.
Its more like a honour thingy?

 

[Kefir-Tribe1]

Its more like a honour thingy?

That is correct.