Definition of "taint"

Denton

New member
Definition of "taint"

Lately, many new forum members have joined this forum, so I have been going to do a post like this for some time now, I've just found always something "better" to do... in other words, I'm so lazy. Now I'm at work with nothing better to do at the moment and my blood is full of caffeine. I'm not sure can I explain this properly in english, but here goes:

Rough definition of the "taint": First of all, technically no one can tell if something is tainted or not(unless the ilvl or something is a "impossible" value). It is just a embodiment of a moral/ethical concept. Well, actually there is a technical reason, why something should be considered as tainted and I'll try to explain it.

One can be tainted by many things. For example if someone would use a drop modification(cheat), his items would be tainted by that drop modification. I use RWM and RRM, so I am tainted by RWM and RRM. Those who play without any modifications(vanilla) and have not traded/MP'd with anyone else than other people who play vanilla, are to be considered "untainted".

Reasoning behind the definition "taint": For example, if someone uses a cheat with one of his character, which allows him to get 1% more experience than normally, his gameplay is aided by something that does not normally exist in the game(cheating), thus he has cheated and that character is to be considered tainted by that particular cheat. Now this player finds items with that same character and stashes them with ATMA. Then he stops using the cheat. He continues to play normally and later on he equips items found by that tainted character on his new character, which was not yet tainted. Now the items that he found with his tainted character, have also tainted this new character, and everything he finds with this new character, should be considered tainted by that "1% exp boost cheat" too.

Some are very accurate about the taint. Generally, if you want to play RWM/RRM and unmodded game(vanilla), you should keep completely separated stashes for them and avoid any and all interaction between those two "flavours".

Partying with other people in MP games(Multiplayer via tcp/ip) can spread a taint too. Example: Player A is vanilla. Player B uses some cheat. Player A and B play in a party and gain experience together. Later on A finds out about B's cheat and leaves the game. In my opinion, as long as player A hasn't gained a level and deletes all items he got in that game before transferring them anywhere, he could "reset" the situation by killing the character few times on purpose and "deleting" the items by dropping them on the ground, thus taking away the tainted experience gained by MP'ing with B. Although, if A has gained a level while partying with B, well... that's a tough one. I bet many would think that A would be beoynd resque now and the character would be tainted.

Bleh, the effect of excessive caffeine and my willingness to babble about this taint is fading away fast. I hope this has cleared some things for some of you. If someone spots flaws in my explanation/reasoning, please point them out and explain your point of view, so there are no misunderstandings about this subject.
 
I certainly don't see anything wrong with your explaination. Very useful indeed for the newcomers :thumbsup:
 
Nice one Denton:thumbsup: Maby AE will add this one to SP FAQ, very usefull info for newcomers.

edit: some more usefull info:

originaly posted by AE: Using multiple Gheeds indeed taints your items. This setup is impossible in-game, and is only availble via 3rd party programs (in this case ATMA)
 
XDoomasX said:
Nice one Denton:thumbsup: Maby AE will add this one to SP FAQ, very usefull info for newcomers.

edit: some more usefull info:

originaly posted by AE: Using multiple Gheeds indeed taints your items. This setup is impossible in-game, and is only availble via 3rd party programs (in this case ATMA)

Version 5.05 now disables this.

--T
 
Excellent description denton :thumbsup: couldn't of explained it better myself, this is priceless for the newcomers.
 
It is also why you'll see various people around here with ''RRM/RWM/Vanilla'' or ''1.10/1.09/1.11b'' in their signatures, messages or something else. It is to help eachother out and give the information op front so people won't MP with eachother and discover ingame about the mods.
If you want to trade, give away items or MP, allways tell what kind of mods you're using.
 
Denton, nicely written mini-article! But I want to say something too. Disclaimer: I've been visiting these boards for only a month now (+some lurking time), so I have no clue about the history of this issue. I just wanted to offer a fresh, and naive, view on this subject.

I feel that you put way too much emphasis on the term 'cheat' in your article. I agree that dropmods/character editors/other evil hacks are cheats and for their use, the term 'taint' is fully justified. I just feel that RWM/RRM are being unjustly compared to these evils in your article.

About RRM: It borders on ludicrousness to compare this to any other degree of taint. I mean, this 'cheat' allows sloppy players a better chance to find a HR, but what's the effect on the r00n drops? (Answer: none!)

About RWM: OK, have to agree with you to some extent. Some of these runewords are not only überpowerful (no problem with that), but also too cheap. This would be the closest a legal mod comes to an effective X% exp boost, by virtue of overpowered gear and accompanying killing effectiveness.

RRM/RWM: 'It is not enabled in SP', so enabling it is cheating. True. But in SP, being able to cherry-pick good maps and run Pindle in 20 seconds flat generates a MF advantage so huge, that it can't be compared to the effectiveness of RWM in ladder play. So if you compare RWM to cheating, than playing SP is cheating times five.

Anyhow, these are just my feelings towards the subject. If I offended anyone: sorry, but I really wanted to get this off my chest. I fully understand that other players have a less liberal view towards things, so stating ones mod status before trade/MP is the best way to go. I just think it's a bit sad that a relatively small SP community is split further this way.
 
Edit: Where are my manners? Thanks for the input everyone! b ^^

AJK - I had no intention in comparing actual cheating to RWM or RRM and didn't mean I think them as in the same category.
Denton said:
One can be tainted by many things. For example if someone would use a drop modification(cheat), his items would be tainted by that drop modification. I use RWM and RRM, so I am tainted by RWM and RRM.
By this I tried to say that there are many _different_ kinds of taints. As in not all of the taint "flavours" should be viewed on the same scale. I just took cheating as a example.

Maybe I should have phrased it in a different way. I wrote it while still being sleepy and under the shaky effects of excessive caffeine consumption. :wink3:

Edit: In short: I use RWM, I'm tainted by RWM. I use RRM, I'm tainted by RRM. Someone edits his/her character to become invincible, that character is tainted by "obvious cheating".

Edit: Fluffballer - :laugh:
 
Denton, I didn't mean to criticize you, I just took this thread as an opportunity to vent my feelings towards this issue. I'm sure threads like this have popped up in the past, but that doesn't make them less useful.

BTW, entirely OT: Your avatar reminds me of some good times I had, together with System Shock 2 and Half Life. If anyone high up in the food chain of the games industry reads this: plz. keep making that kind of games!
 
AJK said:
About RRM: It borders on ludicrousness to compare this to any other degree of taint. I mean, this 'cheat' allows sloppy players a better chance to find a HR, but what's the effect on the r00n drops? (Answer: none!)

About RWM: OK, have to agree with you to some extent. Some of these runewords are not only überpowerful (no problem with that), but also too cheap. This would be the closest a legal mod comes to an effective X% exp boost, by virtue of overpowered gear and accompanying killing effectiveness.

RRM/RWM: 'It is not enabled in SP', so enabling it is cheating. True. But in SP, being able to cherry-pick good maps and run Pindle in 20 seconds flat generates a MF advantage so huge, that it can't be compared to the effectiveness of RWM in ladder play. So if you compare RWM to cheating, than playing SP is cheating times five.

Anyhow, these are just my feelings towards the subject. If I offended anyone: sorry, but I really wanted to get this off my chest. I fully understand that other players have a less liberal view towards things, so stating ones mod status before trade/MP is the best way to go. I just think it's a bit sad that a relatively small SP community is split further this way.

I have to agree with this. It's very easy to sit on your high horse and semi-equate RRM/RWM with cheating (not that Denton meant to), and it irritates me every time someone does that, here or elsewhere. The advantage granted by the RRM is pretty trivial - you can take less time checking big heaps of white stuff for runes. As for the RWM, even if I used Spirit and Insight (the two really cheap RWM additions) on every character I have, the advantage would hardly make beating the game a trivial matter. I don't do that. One character has an merc using an ethereal Insight thresher (it powers her Energy Shield) and that's it. And as AJK says, we have some pretty powerful advantages in SP just from being able to keep good MF maps and press ESC to pause.

PS: This is intended in the same spirit as AJK's post. Just stating my views - I fully understand and am willing to abide by the status quo with respect to 'taint'.
 
Item's can also be tainted by playstyle. I don't trade... so take this with a grain of salt, but I personally would consider any item found by someone who endulges in certain legal, though cheezy, activities in game to be tainted by that play. I'll not name the activity here since I don't want to derail what is really a good thread on the subject. I just think that certain playstyles should be included. Many of these "vanilla" players have aquired stuff in a way that I would consider unethical.

That's how I'd define the word "taint". Taint: Aquired using methods that are against your personal playstyle or by using items found in such a way.

The problem with my definition is that it makes items tainted to some and not to others. Not a very good definition from a mathematical point of view.

The notion of "taint" is key to the decission I made not to trade or accept freebies. My characters themselves even have trading restrictions. It makes the game more challenging. Currently I'm only allowing items that have been un-used to be muled onto my characters. It's making for an interesting campain.
 
Taint is a too negative word imho. This way it sounds like RWM and RRM would be cheats like drop mods or something. We should rather use a word like "affected". My view:

RWM: I don't see how this would "taint" someone. I understand your argumentation, but the RWs are integrated into SP, the mod just unlocks them because Blizzard was too stupid/lazy to do it or forgot it.

RRM: This IS a cheat in my opinion. In normal game play the runes AREN'T red. It makes them easier to see which is an illegal advantage. Yes, it doesn't do anything to the drop chances, but you can as well say that in the time you don't have to search for the rune (e.g. /p8 cows) you can already get new exp/find new items. I don't like it.

In the end I have to agree with AJK that it's sad to see a seperated playing community seperated even further. I'd be glad if we could get to a more tolerant view on this subject.
 
Most sees RWM as bigger taint then RRM.
I don't like the schism and i blame durf

-sal (+1 to spam skill)
 
An enlightening and interesting thread this has become [/YODA].
Warning: My statements below may contain hyperboles, proceed at your own risk.

I think that the whole 'taint' (or 'affected', 'influenced' maybe) basically boils down to the simple D2 reality that You have to work for your items. RRM/RWM may make this work lighter for you, be it by coloring runes, or by slapping a lvl12 conviction aura on your merc. I guess that vanilla players feel that they really worked for (and thus deserved) their itamz. <-- statement exaggerated to get point across.

It has been said before and bears repeating: It's all a matter of personal ethics. As long as we all respect each others wishes, without losing the abillity to discuss, we should all be able to get along.:smiley:
An unfortunate side effect of respecting each other's wishes is also a strict separation in MP games (but hey, this is the SP forum after all!). Too bad.

Mathematical break: a mod user can make MF runs at twice (for example!) the speed of a vanilla player. Their avg. number of scored uniques will be higher (sounds logical). But if you look at the items that really matter, their drop chances are so low that I'd say: zero times two equals zero. Even mod users need ten-thousands of runs (at least) to get the goods.

A general observation and a confession: I never played MP in my life. I never went to (c)battle.net. Maybe the strict treatment of mods is just an allergic reaction to the online chaos, but anyone else here should know more about that. And I talk way too much for a n00b.

P.S. These posts really make me reconsider my vanilla status. I chose vanilla because: RWM is too powerful and I've got glasses (no RRM). The only RWM word I'd allow myself is Edge.

Edit: Would there be a way to unite the SPF? I can think of two:
- Ban RWM/RRM (don't!)
- Have RWM/RRM accepted as a natural part of the game. I mean, what about ATMA? Instantaneous muling? Infinite stashes? Is there anyone around here who doesn't use it (except Mac users...)?
 
The real unifier will be when D3 comes out... for XBox only. Then we're all playing by the same rules with the same platform. Until then, if we enjoy our freedoms, we also have to enjoy the problems that come with said freedoms.
 
Shagsbeard said:
The real unifier will be when D3 comes out..

Shame blizzard will never get around to that :rolleyes:

Not got too much to add to this thread really...

I agree with what AJK as long as we respect everyones play style it should be ok.
 
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