Blizz should admit hc error

[PhatTrumpet]

Guild Wars.

He almost made a triumphant return for 1.11, but turned right around when we found out nothing had been done about TPPK.

 

[Valar-Wrath]

Guild Wars.

He almost made a triumphant return for 1.11, but turned right around when we found out nothing had been done about TPPK.

Yep, he also had a little posting spree going for a while too. That kinda died out as of late though.

 

[Stimm]

The biggest problems with PK / Anti Pk debates is 2 things.

1) Most people don't or can't distinguish between legit and non legit PKing. They put a TPPKer in the same class as someone who uses no hacks or exploits in thier hunting

2) Noone offers a fresh point of view. Its the same points over and over each time. I wouldnt mind if someone could post an anti or pro PK argument that hasnt been used 15000 times already.

Personally I used to hate Pkers till I became friends with people who did it and then I tried it myself and was hooked. I guess it was natural progression - when there isnt a monster in the PvM aspect that offers a challenge you have to find a new one

 

[terrymanning]

I guess it was natural progression - when there isnt a monster in the PvM aspect that offers a challenge you have to find a new one

Or a new game.

 

[Martini]

The biggest problems with PK / Anti Pk debates is 2 things.

1) Most people don't or can't distinguish between legit and non legit PKing. They put a TPPKer in the same class as someone who uses no hacks or exploits in thier hunting

2) Noone offers a fresh point of view. Its the same points over and over each time. I wouldnt mind if someone could post an anti or pro PK argument that hasnt been used 15000 times already.

Personally I used to hate Pkers till I became friends with people who did it and then I tried it myself and was hooked. I guess it was natural progression - when there isnt a monster in the PvM aspect that offers a challenge you have to find a new one

Have to thank you on that post Stimm. It at least provided me with a bit of a chuckle;-)

 

[Greex]

and reprogram the part of the game that allows an option to accept yes or no to hostile in hardcore. I know that originally one of the founders stuck to his guns and insisted that hostile in hardcore remain as an integral part of the game.

But he was wrong. One only has to look at hc hell games, and no one is playing, and I mean no one. At the close of ladder season 2, there was appx 5 pub games running in hc hell, and they were all, I repeat all trade games.

It can not possibly be the intent at the origin of this game, to have people NOT playing it, and that is what is happening, notwithstanding the private games.

Admit your error blizz and fix if you can. Please.

Thanks for the gripewidth;-)

Hostiling a player in this game without the concent of both players was what blizz wanted. It would be boring if i you were to hostile me and Then i replied sorry i dont want you to have any fun. Therefor im not accepting your hostile. You see how that is kinda messed up? Most people on this forum pk or player kill. Most of them are veterans of this game and pk is about the only thing that keeps them to this game. I have to admit without pvp feature this game would have went in the garbage can about 2 years ago. Once you start pking i think you will know how much fun it is. I have only pked for a short amount of time. From my experiance it is one of the most thrilling things to this game, aside from finding a 1337 item like perfect deaths fathom or perfect griffons eye. Blizzard shall not admit they made a mistake because they didn't. Infact they have improved this game if anything else. I bet you pissed alot of people off from this forum when you said that. Most are nice enough not to insult you but your post was kind of stupid in my opinion. No offence because i make plenty of stupid posts but yours just caught my attention. Peace out and good luck with your complaint. Maybe if you get enough supporters behind you blizz will change it but that's very doubtful considering this is how they wanted the game to be.

 

[Baranor]

Please Bongo confront me with the undenieable logic that my deeds as a PK are evil. I challenge you to a duel about the ethics of PK-ing. If you win, I'll give up my evil ways. But you'll have to win, convincingly.

I'll give you a headstart:

take your BEST shot. I am a PK!

 

[AzaZaz]

wew! pk debate start and finished and i didnt get involved wew!!!

...its finished right?

 

[HelzCaretaker]

won't be finished until all the pk's or the whiners decide to quit playing

 

[terrymanning]

Please Bongo confront me with the undenieable logic that my deeds as a PK are evil. I challenge you to a duel about the ethics of PK-ing. If you win, I'll give up my evil ways. But you'll have to win, convincingly.

I'll give you a headstart:

take your BEST shot. I am a PK!

Barry,

I know your challenge was directed towards Bongo, but if you will permit me, I’ll try and present a coherent, non-emotional argument on why I think PK-ing is the wrong thing to do. Wrong for me. You do what you want. But I’ll try and explain why I won’t.

We should first separate the “in-game†perspective from the “out-of-game†perspective. From an in-game perspective taking the role of a PK is allying your self with evil. You are trying to thwart the player from completing his quest of destroying the evil forces that have overrun the land. You know, the object of the game. That said, every story needs a good bad guy (side note: Watch the movie Extreme Prejudice. Powers Booth plays the bad guy and does a tremendous job. Easily the most interesting character in the movie). Anyway, back on topic. From an in game perspective I have no problem with PK-ing. As I previously stated, every story needs a bad guy and Baal can’t leave the throne room and come looking for you. In my opinion however, most people who complain about PK-ing never even consider the in-game perspective. They jump right to the out-of-game perspective and this is where things get prickly.

The way I look at the game is probably different than most people. You hear quite a few people say that Blizzard intended people to PK. I don’t look at it like that. I look at it this way; when you enter a game Blizzard gives you at least three choices. You can help – join the party, ignore – not party and quest on your own or hurt – hostile the other people in the game and try and kill their characters. Blizzard hasn’t told you what to do, they haven’t encouraged you one way or another. All they do is present you with a choice. What you do is your choice alone. Just like real life in a certain sense.

Speaking just for me, I don’t consciously try and do things that I know will negatively impact other people, especially not for my own enjoyment. That includes the way I play games. That’s not the person I am. I try to play unselfishly when I coop with other people. I don’t grab drops, I don’t lead monsters back to the party, etc, etc, etc. Say whatever you want, but the fact remains when you kill someone else’s character, you have negatively impacted them for your own enjoyment. I don’t care if it is just a game, that fact still remains. Bottom line, there’s no way around it. I would feel very uncomfortable making the statement “my fun is based on some one else’s painâ€. Game or not, that’s the statement you have to make when you choose to PK. As for me, my parents taught me to respect other people and their ideas and feelings. And that’s what I try and teach my children even when it comes to something as trivial as a game.

Having said all that we both know I’m not going to change anyone’s opinion, but I hope I have explained why I don’t PK.

 

[Baranor]

Barry,

I know your challenge was directed towards Bongo, but if you will permit me, I’ll try and present a coherent, non-emotional argument on why I think PK-ing is the wrong thing to do. Wrong for me. You do what you want. But I’ll try and explain why I won’t.

Oh no problem, I'll try and explain the other side of the coin.

We should first separate the “in-game” perspective from the “out-of-game” perspective. From an in-game perspective taking the role of a PK is allying your self with evil. You are trying to thwart the player from completing his quest of destroying the evil forces that have overrun the land. You know, the object of the game. That said, every story needs a good bad guy (side note: Watch the movie Extreme Prejudice. Powers Booth plays the bad guy and does a tremendous job. Easily the most interesting character in the movie). Anyway, back on topic. From an in game perspective I have no problem with PK-ing. As I previously stated, every story needs a bad guy and Baal can’t leave the throne room and come looking for you. In my opinion however, most people who complain about PK-ing never even consider the in-game perspective. They jump right to the out-of-game perspective and this is where things get prickly.

But... what if the heroes are actually not the REAL heroes, but are acting upon a deeply conceived mistake? Need I remind you of the ending of Diablo I, where the soulstone found a more powerfull and capable host? Diablo II Lord of Destruction ends likewise. The Worldstone, the very anchor which seperates the Heavens and the Hells, is destroyed. Indeed, even before that, you enter Tal Rasha's Tomb, which HAS NOT BEEN OPENED YET! YOU are the one that OPENS Tal Rasha's tomb, and duriel merrily comments that you are looking for Baal. Baal, the Deceiver, who is not shy of taking Tyrael's shape, is set free by you, the so-called hero.

Killing off the misguided heroes is the only way to save the Worldstone. Killing them before the end of Act 2 is the only way to keep Baal imprisoned. Killing off the heroes is the Right Thing.

The way I look at the game is probably different than most people. You hear quite a few people say that Blizzard intended people to PK. I don’t look at it like that. I look at it this way; when you enter a game Blizzard gives you at least three choices. You can help – join the party, ignore – not party and quest on your own or hurt – hostile the other people in the game and try and kill their characters. Blizzard hasn’t told you what to do, they haven’t encouraged you one way or another. All they do is present you with a choice. What you do is your choice alone. Just like real life in a certain sense.

True, and untrue. In real life there are consequences. Here there are not.

Speaking just for me, I don’t consciously try and do things that I know will negatively impact other people, especially not for my own enjoyment. That includes the way I play games. That’s not the person I am. I try to play unselfishly when I coop with other people. I don’t grab drops, I don’t lead monsters back to the party, etc, etc, etc. Say whatever you want, but the fact remains when you kill someone else’s character, you have negatively impacted them for your own enjoyment. I don’t care if it is just a game, that fact still remains. Bottom line, there’s no way around it. I would feel very uncomfortable making the statement “my fun is based on some one else’s pain”. Game or not, that’s the statement you have to make when you choose to PK. As for me, my parents taught me to respect other people and their ideas and feelings. And that’s what I try and teach my children even when it comes to something as trivial as a game.

In Hardcore there is no way to avoid it: your character will eventually die. That is part of the cycle of the hardcore play. I am part of that cycle. I PK, not because I enjoy causing pain, but because in the world of Diablo II Hardcore play, PK is part of the game. I do not have to make the statement that "my fun is based on some one else's pain" because I feel that one should always be able to seperate the enjoyment from the game itself. If it causes you pain if your pixxels die, you should already have stopped playing, and I am doing you a favor by killing your character. The only thing that matters is the playing itself, not the end. Since my viewpoint differs vastly from the viewpoint of pretty much anyone else on battlenet, and especially the HC populace, it is futile to convince me otherwise. Diablo II is just a game, and anyone should be able to seperate the game from their world.

I do sometimes insult people that I meet and harass them somewhat. I admit that. Sorry. If you call yourself "white power" or variants thereof, you're asking for it.

Having said all that we both know I’m not going to change anyone’s opinion, but I hope I have explained why I don’t PK.

Yup, pretty clear to me. Hope you understand me too.

 

[AzaZaz]

Heres one way I look at it. Completely free of emotion as Terry put it, which is how it should be. Anyone who knows me knows I put as much if not more time into poker then I do into Dii so I already have 2 filthy habbits

Anyways, I'm at the Casino the other night, after a long game, I think I broke even. I was on my way to the bathroom before I left and to get there I had to walk passed a number of slot machines. As I'm walking by, I noticed all these people, sitting there starring at the machines, pulling the arm, like robots. The slight chance the person hits a tiny jackpot they jump on those coins like they're gold and make sure nobody even thinks about looking at ther $7.50 jackpot that they just spent 10 hours trying to win. I was disgusted. I mean, I was absolutely disgusted that people go to this place time and time again and just put coin after coin into this machine and just stare at it with a blank look on their face hoping to find something. And then it hit me....Meph runs.

Slot machines are like meph runs. Run after run, all night long make game - tele - kill - drops - make game - tele - kill - drops and the odd chance you might find something nice. I couldn't wait to get back to my poker room where there was actually "life" in the people. Where people interacted together.

Now, looking at the game of poker, reminds me alot of pking or dueling....infact it is exactly that, Player Versus Player. My success in poker relies on how much money I can take from another person at that table. That person might be playing there as a pro to make a living, or they might be there just having a good time with some friends. Regardless, I'm trying to take their money to make money. The bottom line of this is not that in order for me to win I need to make people suffer at the fact of losing their hard earned cash, but that is the result of me winning. Much like PvP. The argument can be made that people at a poker table know the risks when the enter the casino and are therefore different from a PK situation, but a player playing hardcore should also be aware of the risks and should be capable of avoiding a legit pk attempt. If you're playing hardcore then you should be a skilled and knowledgable player who should easily thwart (right word?) a pk attempt as it is a very simple thing to avoid.

It is not the goal of a legit PK to "cause suffering" that is just the result of the actions for some people. And I think it is a very important point Barry made that if your character in a video game dying causes you suffering, you are already at a point where you should not be playing.

I guess what I'm saying is it's all perspective as everyone on this thread knows, there can be pro's and con's for every aspect of play. Some people dislike me killing people who can't handle me coming after them, and some people can't stand the drones that sit there night after night magic finding like mindless robots. Regardless they are all part of the game, and acceptance is the only option. If anyone can't accept this....theres always Pac Man

 

[PhatTrumpet]

So the arguement for consentual hostility would be that when you go to the casino you shouldn't be forced to gamble. When someone is hostiled they only really have two choices: fight (stand your ground) or flee (save/exit or wait in town 'til hostile person leaves). In a casino you're free to hang out, get a couple drinks, socialize, etc. without anyone yelling at you to get your arse to the poker table and start putting your money on the line.

Whether Blizzard messed up or not in designing the game this way is up to you. Wasn't it their best-selling game at the time, though? Majority rules, and they've said many times about the hostile issue: "We gave our customers what they wanted."

 

[terrymanning]

@AzaZaz

When you are playing poker "head to head" you expect the other person to take your money. Thats the object of the game. You shouldn't feel bothered when the other person plays to win. Thats more of a duel.

Let's use this example instead. Say your playing Black Jack. It pits you against the house. Say you have a guy on third base that only hits or stands in order to make you lose, regarless of how he does against the house. Thats more like PK-ing.

Suffering and pain over the loss of a character is all in the eyes of the beholder. But if you say that losing a character isn't somewhat bothersome you probably aren't being entrirely honest. One of the best responses I ever heard, and I cant remember who said it but it was on these boards, to PKs saying losing a character shouldn't bother anyone, a person asked a PK if they PK-ed their friends. To which the PK responded "no off course not". To which they replied "if it's no big deal, why not". I think the exchange ended there. Go figure.

As for acceptance, I have already stated I think the non-consensual hostilty option belongs in the game. I just think you make a poor decision when use it.

 

[HelzCaretaker]

@AzaZaz
Let's use this example instead. Say your playing Black Jack. It pits you against the house. Say you have a guy on third base that only hits or stands in order to make you lose, regarless of how he does against the house. Thats more like PK-ing.

How does this work? Its cards, random chance to get cards. If a guy "steals" my king there was an equal chance he gets a 2 (depending on what cards have been played). Really nice try to make a stupid card comparison about pking.

Pking IS part of the game, as I said before, if you don't like pk's either learn to avoid them or find a different game. Nuf said.

 

[PhatTrumpet]

Helz, this may be a little too sophisticated for you, but people are actually trying to have a halfway intelligent discussion here. All you do is make yourself look foolish when you post so belligerently for no apparent reason. Not being able to follow someone's arguement does not give you an excuse to snap at them.

 

[Tarantella]

Barry,

I know your challenge was directed towards Bongo, but if you will permit me, I’ll try and present a coherent, non-emotional argument on why I think PK-ing is the wrong thing to do. Wrong for me. You do what you want. But I’ll try and explain why I won’t.

We should first separate the “in-game†perspective from the “out-of-game†perspective. From an in-game perspective taking the role of a PK is allying your self with evil. You are trying to thwart the player from completing his quest of destroying the evil forces that have overrun the land. You know, the object of the game. That said, every story needs a good bad guy (side note: Watch the movie Extreme Prejudice. Powers Booth plays the bad guy and does a tremendous job. Easily the most interesting character in the movie). Anyway, back on topic. From an in game perspective I have no problem with PK-ing. As I previously stated, every story needs a bad guy and Baal can’t leave the throne room and come looking for you. In my opinion however, most people who complain about PK-ing never even consider the in-game perspective. They jump right to the out-of-game perspective and this is where things get prickly.

The way I look at the game is probably different than most people. You hear quite a few people say that Blizzard intended people to PK. I don’t look at it like that. I look at it this way; when you enter a game Blizzard gives you at least three choices. You can help – join the party, ignore – not party and quest on your own or hurt – hostile the other people in the game and try and kill their characters. Blizzard hasn’t told you what to do, they haven’t encouraged you one way or another. All they do is present you with a choice. What you do is your choice alone. Just like real life in a certain sense.

Speaking just for me, I don’t consciously try and do things that I know will negatively impact other people, especially not for my own enjoyment. That includes the way I play games. That’s not the person I am. I try to play unselfishly when I coop with other people. I don’t grab drops, I don’t lead monsters back to the party, etc, etc, etc. Say whatever you want, but the fact remains when you kill someone else’s character, you have negatively impacted them for your own enjoyment. I don’t care if it is just a game, that fact still remains. Bottom line, there’s no way around it. I would feel very uncomfortable making the statement “my fun is based on some one else’s painâ€. Game or not, that’s the statement you have to make when you choose to PK. As for me, my parents taught me to respect other people and their ideas and feelings. And that’s what I try and teach my children even when it comes to something as trivial as a game.

Having said all that we both know I’m not going to change anyone’s opinion, but I hope I have explained why I don’t PK.

I would encourage you to read the section on going hostile on page 34 of the original Diablo 2 manual.

I have no problems with people coming into games and hostiling if thats what they want to do as long as they have no problems accepting my response.

If people dont like high level (or low level) pkers coming into their games and hostiling then they should set player level restrictions.

Cheating by using tppk should have been predicted by the original programming crew and whilst you might think them a bit naive not to think about ways in which people might pick apart and cheat at the game a simple patch only to allow hostiling after a ten second wait in town would have stopped the exodus away from multiplayer bnet hardcore games ages ago.

Such a patch would not have stopped duelling nor stopped pvp activity.

And dont even think about getting me started on the crappy 'front end' of the game. Take a good look at Unreal Tournament, its presentation for finding and making games and the way in which it allows me to propose or join game types that I want to play with the number of people I choose to play with for the duration I want to play.

 

[jmervyn1]

No, no it hasn't.

Back in D1, I could cast fireballs while in town. I could auto-kill people. I could even have God-mode if I chose.

In no way is D2 worse than D1 when it comes to PK capabilities.

Sorry, should have been specific - I knew D2 would get worse. D1 was truly laughable; I remember the first time I got auto-killed, and thinking, WTF is wrong with the programmers...? Would have been different if town wasn't <meant> to be a safe zone, but then you'd have eventually seen auto-kill upon joining a game.

 

[Tai.1]

So the arguement for consentual hostility would be that when you go to the casino you shouldn't be forced to gamble. When someone is hostiled they only really have two choices: fight (stand your ground) or flee (save/exit or wait in town 'til hostile person leaves). In a casino you're free to hang out, get a couple drinks, socialize, etc. without anyone yelling at you to get your arse to the poker table and start putting your money on the line.

Honestly think you're interpretting this the wrong way. If we're to draw connections between real-life situations and D2 (sorry valar, I know how much it irks ya) we have to identify the correspondences. In my opinion the Poker Table itself is the game, not the casino. In a casino you have the option of relaxing, chatting etc. much like our chat system on b.net. Once you sit down at the poker table however, you have agreed to risk some of your own possessions (entering a game), in poker as in D2 hc, you are given ample opportunity to get out at any time.

If i raise preflop, and someone comes over the top of my bluff, I have the option of cutting my losses and running, if I decide to go all-in and make another stab at the pot, I've made my choice, I could've folded, much as the PvM character COULD easily leave the game before being hunted down by a legit PKer.

I happen to quite like the poker analogy, and it makes a lot of sense to me, as in both instances I have a tendency to chase my cash and overextend myself

Cheers
-Tai