Arrested Development Mafia Game Thread

[Zokar1]

Why do you assume mafia will break up partnered players? Why do you assume that strategy removes mafia's flexibility in kill choices?

Do you think mafia will kill their partners or break up townie pairings? I can see benefits to both of these for the scum to do.

Why do you assume mafia will not break up partnered players?
If I was mafia, I know that hidden communication can be extremely valuable to town and dangerous to the team. Aside from a reveal of a town PR or similar reasoning, why would mafia waste time killing a player without hidden communications when they can kill somebody with hidden communications (in this context it's the same as a town PR).

It doesn't remove flexibility... it increases it while also providing them a means to be exceedingly efficient!

If I was mafia, I wouldn't bother killing my communication partner. Collusion to spin a narrative and span it across a number of players to grow seeds of doubt about critical aspects of the game... or kill them... yeah, pretty hard choice!

Why would you want to provide mafia with information that helps them be even more efficient about who and when to kill?

They are almost guaranteed to eliminate a couple town-town pairs the first couple nights just by randomly killing anyone not partnered with scum.

This. But, if we give them a full disclosure of pairings, then they can efficiently kill off a single member of each grouping to maximize effectiveness. Which is exactly why I'm not liking the mass claim stuff.

 

[pharphis]

Why do you assume mafia will not break up partnered players?
If I was mafia, I know that hidden communication can be extremely valuable to town and dangerous to the team. Aside from a reveal of a town PR or similar reasoning, why would mafia waste time killing a player without hidden communications when they can kill somebody with hidden communications (in this context it's the same as a town PR).

It doesn't remove flexibility... it increases it while also providing them a means to be exceedingly efficient!

If I was mafia, I wouldn't bother killing my communication partner. Collusion to spin a narrative and span it across a number of players to grow seeds of doubt about critical aspects of the game... or kill them... yeah, pretty hard choice!

Why would you want to provide mafia with information that helps them be even more efficient about who and when to kill?




This. But, if we give them a full disclosure of pairings, then they can efficiently kill off a single member of each grouping to maximize effectiveness. Which is exactly why I'm not liking the mass claim stuff.

I didn't assume that. I'm open to mafia kill both their partners and paired townies, and I expect a mix of the two. Going all-out in one way only makes it easier to find the scum a few days in when they're all paired with someone. I think you're looking at this from only one angle and not considering WIFOM even a little bit.

Mafia kill people they think are PRs, or are strong players on the right track. This is true in every game and I don't see why pairs of players are a greater worry to the mafia than a PR, strong player or confirmed townie. It DOES remove flexibility to have the goal of "only kill paired townies" for the first few days. It IS a subset of all possible choices so it is LESS choices.

Good to know what you would do as mafia. I'll keep an eye out for you and your partner in a few days when we'll have presumably claimed.

This was also discussed in the all SK game but keep in mind that within a few days mafia should have figured out most of the pairings if not all of them, anyway. The informed minority are usually able to pick these details up plus they should know of at least a few pairings. (if we assume mafia are ~30% of the players then they know from 30%-60% of the pairs at game start...)

 

[Zokar1]

I didn't assume that. I'm open to mafia kill both their partners and paired townies, and I expect a mix of the two. Going all-out in one way only makes it easier to find the scum a few days in when they're all paired with someone. I think you're looking at this from only one angle and not considering WIFOM even a little bit.

Mafia kill people they think are PRs, or are strong players on the right track. This is true in every game and I don't see why pairs of players are a greater worry to the mafia than a PR, strong player or confirmed townie. It DOES remove flexibility to have the goal of "only kill paired townies" for the first few days. It IS a subset of all possible choices so it is LESS choices.

Good to know what you would do as mafia. I'll keep an eye out for you and your partner in a few days when we'll have presumably claimed.

This was also discussed in the all SK game but keep in mind that within a few days mafia should have figured out most of the pairings if not all of them, anyway. The informed minority are usually able to pick these details up plus they should know of at least a few pairings. (if we assume mafia are ~30% of the players then they know from 30%-60% of the pairs at game start...)

Doing the obvious is just as much WIFOM as anything else, you should know that.

"Mafia kill people they think are PRs..." is hidden communication not a PR? It sure as hell is as far as I'im concerned.
What if we have cops? Then the PRs and hidden communication abilities empower each other and the effectiveness of that PR now increases significantly. If there was a cop and he cleared his partner and could dump results in the shared thread, then even if he's dead the information still has a chance of getting out. This alone is a damn good reason to shut down these communication groups imo. Can they opt to do something else? Of course, but why give them the option to do this in the first place??

 

[FredOfErik]

"Mafia kill people they think are PRs..." is hidden communication not a PR?

Agreed, but since mafia know that everybody in this game have secret communication I guess it isn't as much power role simply just role. I can see mafia starting to target town/town pairs later on, if they run out of obvious options though.

say goodbye to what? Did I miss something?

Maybe?

 

[Drixx]

Okay ... did the game seriously just spend an entire day talking about what to do about the private convos? Any publicly agreed strategy will be useless for the town since scum will by default know what is going on. Use or don't use the thing as you see fit. Mass claiming pairs sounds like the worst idea I've ever heard of.

Also, I tried to engage my partner in conversation, but the mod went and answered my question aimed at my partner. I had a clever plan to try and feel out my partner and BPC just had to step in and answer the question and rob me of my read. Gah!

Also... I think the implication, Pharphis, is that the game might as well start with your name in the dead list since you're likely to die quickly?

 

[thefranklin]

Vote: Drixx

Ignore lack of spelling and logic, phonestyle

 

[Thyiad1]

Okay ... did the game seriously just spend an entire day talking about what to do about the private convos? Any publicly agreed strategy will be useless for the town since scum will by default know what is going on. Use or don't use the thing as you see fit. Mass claiming pairs sounds like the worst idea I've ever heard of.

Also, I tried to engage my partner in conversation, but the mod went and answered my question aimed at my partner. I had a clever plan to try and feel out my partner and BPC just had to step in and answer the question and rob me of my read. Gah!

Also... I think the implication, Pharphis, is that the game might as well start with your name in the dead list since you're likely to die quickly?

 

[Thyiad1]

Oh ffs! I can't work the new multiquote!

I'll try again in a minute.

Heads up: had a 3am start, uncle taken into hospital this morning, just got home (11pm). Trying to catch up before the day ends and no I don't know when that is because I'm too knackered to work timezones.

Yeah, usual quality Thyiad-play.

 

[pharphis]

Doing the obvious is just as much WIFOM as anything else, you should know that.

"Mafia kill people they think are PRs..." is hidden communication not a PR? It sure as hell is as far as I'im concerned.
What if we have cops? Then the PRs and hidden communication abilities empower each other and the effectiveness of that PR now increases significantly. If there was a cop and he cleared his partner and could dump results in the shared thread, then even if he's dead the information still has a chance of getting out. This alone is a damn good reason to shut down these communication groups imo. Can they opt to do something else? Of course, but why give them the option to do this in the first place??

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, then. I feel you're over-emphasizing the priority of the mafia to break up town pairs. I understand the implications of a partner but keep in mind no one knows anyone else's alignment... it's not as powerful as you suggest.

Agreed, but since mafia know that everybody in this game have secret communication I guess it isn't as much power role simply just role. I can see mafia starting to target town/town pairs later on, if they run out of obvious options though.



Maybe?

Yup

Wat?

Okay ... did the game seriously just spend an entire day talking about what to do about the private convos? Any publicly agreed strategy will be useless for the town since scum will by default know what is going on. Use or don't use the thing as you see fit. Mass claiming pairs sounds like the worst idea I've ever heard of.

Also, I tried to engage my partner in conversation, but the mod went and answered my question aimed at my partner. I had a clever plan to try and feel out my partner and BPC just had to step in and answer the question and rob me of my read. Gah!

Also... I think the implication, Pharphis, is that the game might as well start with your name in the dead list since you're likely to die quickly?

I understood the joke, I was just being annoying... D1 and all

 

[pharphis]

Oh ffs! I can't work the new multiquote!

I'll try again in a minute.

Heads up: had a 3am start, uncle taken into hospital this morning, just got home (11pm). Trying to catch up before the day ends and no I don't know when that is because I'm too knackered to work timezones.

Yeah, usual quality Thyiad-play.

I'm getting confused by it, too. Try "insert messages" after quoting someone and moving your typing-cursor-thing to the top of your message so that you don't insert all the quotes at the bottom (below the most recent post that you're quoting, presumably)

At least that seems to work

 

[Thyiad1]

Attempt 2:

What are the benefits of partner claiming?

What are the negatives?

I can't really see any benefits or negatives either way TBH.

Oh please, you can do better than that!
1) Benefits; town shares information (someone else mentioned this). In the hope you get a PR with a confirmed town, there's the ability of the PR to "speak from the grave).

2) Mafia having the names of a lot of the town! They obviously know each other and now they know 3-4 town too? And those person's roles if they've got loose lips? Ewww!

In the absence of any information, I believe sharing qt partners to be only beneficial to scum. When we know more, either through who scum chooses to kill or the results of our own lynches, there may be some benefit, but right now I cant imagine the information ever being more beneficial to town than scum.

Actually, scratch that. The most obvious course for scum to take in the event we shared partners would be to act to prevent the eventual formation of mason teams. IF two scum are together, and thus that pairing isnt targeted by scum, that could be of benefit to town. Unfortunately, the primary benefit of it would be to force scum to target their kills in a fashion that helped them avoid suspicion....however, that marginal benefit only acts to mitigate the downside of sharing partners, AND only occurs if scum have two members in one of the pairs.

Question: do scum kill their qt partners out of fear of slipping up, or being suspicious in their silence? Or do they let them live and attempt to manipulate them?

I stuck this in the multiquote and now I can't remember why! Great. I'll come back to it if I remember.

I'm for sharing partners in a massclaimy sort of thing similar to the all SK game. I think it helps us get reads on how players are interacting (or not) with their partners. I'm thinking D2-D3 is best for this

OT: multiquote is WEIRD, now

D2-D3 part I was wondering wtf Diablo 2 or Diablo 3 had to do with this until I realized you meant day 2 or 3.

Multiquote - yeah. Expect lots of quotes without any other info until I figure it out

Why do you assume mafia will not break up partnered players?
If I was mafia, I know that hidden communication can be extremely valuable to town and dangerous to the team. Aside from a reveal of a town PR or similar reasoning, why would mafia waste time killing a player without hidden communications when they can kill somebody with hidden communications (in this context it's the same as a town PR).

It doesn't remove flexibility... it increases it while also providing them a means to be exceedingly efficient!

If I was mafia, I wouldn't bother killing my communication partner. Collusion to spin a narrative and span it across a number of players to grow seeds of doubt about critical aspects of the game... or kill them... yeah, pretty hard choice!

Why would you want to provide mafia with information that helps them be even more efficient about who and when to kill?

Well ... that's ... a scarily good tactic!

This. But, if we give them a full disclosure of pairings, then they can efficiently kill off a single member of each grouping to maximize effectiveness. Which is exactly why I'm not liking the mass claim stuff.

Can't argue with this!

 

[Caluin Graye]

I feel like we're just saying the same arguments that came up last time we had random pairings. I don't remember what the end result of that discussion was though, since I largely ignored the QTs back then anyways.

 

[Bad Ash]

Attempt 2:



Oh please, you can do better than that!
1) Benefits; town shares information (someone else mentioned this). In the hope you get a PR with a confirmed town, there's the ability of the PR to "speak from the grave).

2) Mafia having the names of a lot of the town! They obviously know each other and now they know 3-4 town too? And those person's roles if they've got loose lips? Ewww!

Wouldn't the mafia already know who the town are? I.E. the people who aren't grouped in their mafia group? And I'm pretty sure if there are two mafia groups, all the mafia in their respective QT's would say they are town which would provide no further information. Unless I am misunderstanding what you said?

 

[Bad Ash]

I had every intention of using my QT, but that is no longer the case.

 

[thefranklin]

Are you Thy's partner? That seems like a mafia slip up there.

 

[Goryani]

I feel like we're just saying the same arguments that came up last time we had random pairings. I don't remember what the end result of that discussion was though, since I largely ignored the QTs back then anyways.

2-3 players claimed and that was enough for everyone to know almost everything (and a couple did know everything). That prompted the last 1-2 to claim to make it official.

 

[Goryani]

I had every intention of using my QT, but that is no longer the case.

What changed your mind?

 

[Bad Ash]

What changed your mind?

Probably an overreaction by me, but their approach to the QT thread. Half of it I agree with and half of it I don't and it's the part I don't that I don't think I like.

 

[Pyrotechnician1]

I plan to spill my guts in the QT. Whether my partner trusts everything I say is another thing.

That sounds very un-Sathoris to me.

In the absence of any information, I believe sharing qt partners to be only beneficial to scum. When we know more, either through who scum chooses to kill or the results of our own lynches, there may be some benefit, but right now I cant imagine the information ever being more beneficial to town than scum.

Actually, scratch that. The most obvious course for scum to take in the event we shared partners would be to act to prevent the eventual formation of mason teams. IF two scum are together, and thus that pairing isnt targeted by scum, that could be of benefit to town. Unfortunately, the primary benefit of it would be to force scum to target their kills in a fashion that helped them avoid suspicion....however, that marginal benefit only acts to mitigate the downside of sharing partners, AND only occurs if scum have two members in one of the pairs.

Question: do scum kill their qt partners out of fear of slipping up, or being suspicious in their silence? Or do they let them live and attempt to manipulate them?

Scum already know which people they have an influence on from their pairings (or will know tonight when they have their chat). So from the start the town is at a disadvantage. For the first couple nights they will be able to kill whatever townie they don't have a seat with effectively breaking possible mason teams from the start.

Mason teams can only actually form by having confirmed town on both sides. Having both people in a pair be completely confirmed is likely only through investigation and if pairs are unknown how likely is that to happen before it becomes irrelevant?

I assume if we follow normal process that mass claim would happen somewhere around day 3 and the first couple night kills are usually pretty random, so regardless if we claimed table partners or not, they could break most possible mason situations with ease before then and we wouldn't even know it.

Therefore I am currently in favor of sharing table partners, if not today, then tomorrow.

 

[Pyrotechnician1]

Is that a threat?

Good luck to your homies

I'm for sharing partners in a massclaimy sort of thing similar to the all SK game. I think it helps us get reads on how players are interacting (or not) with their partners. I'm thinking D2-D3 is best for this

OT: multiquote is WEIRD, now

No threat, it just happens everytime so I expect it. Did you open your box yet?

Do not like ><

"Hey, lets mass claim all our partners!"

Scum: Awesome, now we have a prioritized list of people to kill to break up additional communication!

Scum: "Sounds good! Lets do it D2-D3? Seems best to me!"

I think this logic is flawed from my reasoning above.

Thats what she said.

Oh you! So funny!