Forum Mafia - The Dark Tower Game Thread
- Thread starter Drixx
- Start date
flubbucket1
New member
Oh everyone knows Goryani has the best stories....:badteeth:
djmbbandie
Well-known member
Ha! I called that Goryani would read our QTs!
Thanks for hosting Drixx. I can't imagine the work required to prepare for this game. Quite a monumental undertaking. Definitely some great moments even if the total package was off.
Just a basic overview for now as I've not seen detailed game notes/role PMs/etc:
The Not So Good:
I'd say the game was definitely a bastard game. I'm not opposed to bastard games (some have been real fun: WoW RPG) but I think they need to be advertised as bastard. This game included several "hidden" win conditions for mafia. That meant this game also had hidden lose conditions for town. Hidden win/lose conditions are unquestioningly bastard modding.
Balance - I had/have quite a few critiques about balance but they are only relevant in a game with the standard win condition. I will say that I don't think mafia can ever win this game via the usual method. I think the only way mafia achieve the usual win condition is to also achieve one if not both other win conditions as well. Five person mason teams are THAT powerful (not counting all the other powers they had).
Most of the rest of my critiques of this game can be summed up with one word: hidden. Hidden win conditions. Hidden game events. Hidden role abilities. Too many things were hidden from players. The sum total of all the hiddenness made me feel less a player than a passenger. That isn't the spirit of a mafia game. Mafia probably could have targeted each action randomly (at least the first 5-6 nights) and there is a surprisingly high chance we could have won somehow.
I think the best "fix" is to just tell us. Give mafia the details about the non-standard win conditions. Give masons info about the non-standard lose condition if they are all dead. Notify Beam guardians of their non-standard lose condition if they are all dead. That also means telling the Beam Guardians they were Beam Guardians. Tell Andy the Messenger robot if he has a % chance to be lynchproof or if he's lynchproof as long as Eddie doesn't lock (or whatever it actually is). Tell someone if they are a backup X. Tell us what we need to know in order to play the game.
The Good:
Non-standard win conditions. I think these are an untapped resource. I just liek them. Like cults, they should never be common but they should make appearances at times. Assuming players are notified of the non-standard win conditions... I felt the two non-standard win cons fit very well (though one not perfectly). Dismantling the ka-tet was pretty spot on. Very well done both in terms of lore and in balance/difficulty. Destroying the Guardian Beams was a real nice lore based idea. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think the characters chosen as Beam Guardians were beam guardians in the books (normally, this isn't any problem at all, except that certain other areas of the game followed lore almost to a T - how one makes future decisions might be based on how close to the lore they think the game runs yet there are conflicting signals about how close the design matches lore). That's not lore-like but also probably an artifact of designed game size versus actual player count. I thought the Beam Guardian flag being hidden from mafia investigation was a mistake. Mafia found out about one Beam Guardian late in the game upon critical success but another Beam Guardian showed up as not-a-Beam-Guardian even when that investigation was also a critical success.
Stories. With a caveat. It looked like the stories were great but I honestly didn't understand some of most of them. I understood the words but there was a deeper meaning I could tell was there but couldn't find. I didn't have knowledge of the lore necessary to comprehend the deeper meaning. Example: I didn't see any riddle or task in the twilight story. Sorry. I didn't know what I should be looking for let alone where to look for it. That said, the parts of the stories I did understand were great. I enjoyed re-reading them (to look for the deeper meaning) because they were good.
There are more good things but most involve specific roles. I'll wait for more details to post those (if only so I catch them all).
Just a basic overview for now as I've not seen detailed game notes/role PMs/etc:
The Not So Good:
I'd say the game was definitely a bastard game. I'm not opposed to bastard games (some have been real fun: WoW RPG) but I think they need to be advertised as bastard. This game included several "hidden" win conditions for mafia. That meant this game also had hidden lose conditions for town. Hidden win/lose conditions are unquestioningly bastard modding.
Balance - I had/have quite a few critiques about balance but they are only relevant in a game with the standard win condition. I will say that I don't think mafia can ever win this game via the usual method. I think the only way mafia achieve the usual win condition is to also achieve one if not both other win conditions as well. Five person mason teams are THAT powerful (not counting all the other powers they had).
Most of the rest of my critiques of this game can be summed up with one word: hidden. Hidden win conditions. Hidden game events. Hidden role abilities. Too many things were hidden from players. The sum total of all the hiddenness made me feel less a player than a passenger. That isn't the spirit of a mafia game. Mafia probably could have targeted each action randomly (at least the first 5-6 nights) and there is a surprisingly high chance we could have won somehow.
I think the best "fix" is to just tell us. Give mafia the details about the non-standard win conditions. Give masons info about the non-standard lose condition if they are all dead. Notify Beam guardians of their non-standard lose condition if they are all dead. That also means telling the Beam Guardians they were Beam Guardians. Tell Andy the Messenger robot if he has a % chance to be lynchproof or if he's lynchproof as long as Eddie doesn't lock (or whatever it actually is). Tell someone if they are a backup X. Tell us what we need to know in order to play the game.
The Good:
Non-standard win conditions. I think these are an untapped resource. I just liek them. Like cults, they should never be common but they should make appearances at times. Assuming players are notified of the non-standard win conditions... I felt the two non-standard win cons fit very well (though one not perfectly). Dismantling the ka-tet was pretty spot on. Very well done both in terms of lore and in balance/difficulty. Destroying the Guardian Beams was a real nice lore based idea. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think the characters chosen as Beam Guardians were beam guardians in the books (normally, this isn't any problem at all, except that certain other areas of the game followed lore almost to a T - how one makes future decisions might be based on how close to the lore they think the game runs yet there are conflicting signals about how close the design matches lore). That's not lore-like but also probably an artifact of designed game size versus actual player count. I thought the Beam Guardian flag being hidden from mafia investigation was a mistake. Mafia found out about one Beam Guardian late in the game upon critical success but another Beam Guardian showed up as not-a-Beam-Guardian even when that investigation was also a critical success.
Stories. With a caveat. It looked like the stories were great but I honestly didn't understand some of most of them. I understood the words but there was a deeper meaning I could tell was there but couldn't find. I didn't have knowledge of the lore necessary to comprehend the deeper meaning. Example: I didn't see any riddle or task in the twilight story. Sorry. I didn't know what I should be looking for let alone where to look for it. That said, the parts of the stories I did understand were great. I enjoyed re-reading them (to look for the deeper meaning) because they were good.
There are more good things but most involve specific roles. I'll wait for more details to post those (if only so I catch them all).
Hey now! I've had one or two. OK, so I blatantly ripped them off from other sources...
What gets me: Why did masons even begin to spam their own QT? If the listener worked AT ALL like the listeners we've seen in games passed, such behavior made it less likely mafia would be caught and put extreme suspicion on any "mason" that claimed they spammed their own QT in order to thwart a listener.
Masons?
I personally feel that saying "I was wrong" is far more powerful than "I'm sorry". Saying "I'm sorry" can mean a variety of things and doesn't necessarily imply the acceptance of personal responsibility for that something wrong, whereas saying "I was wrong" takes ownership of what went wrong. In my closing post I definitely thanked the playgroup for putting up with my mistakes and faux pas. If I'm sorry for anything, it's simply that I didn't do a better job.
I read TC's final paragraph wherein he reveals that he has some personal bad feelings towards me, and implies that he knows my "true character". If I restrict myself only to interactions on these forums, I can think of two things I've done which might have offended him. If I open up my entire life, well there's lots of things in there, mostly from well before I joined these forums, that I'm not so proud of. Quite frankly though, I've had the feeling for some time that TC doesn't like me. My truest character is that I would prefer to get along with all and if I offend someone I want to make it right.
@Thundercat - Obviously at some time or in some way over the years I gave you a great offense. I am unaware of what incident or incidents caused you to make a lens through which you view me that you refer to as my "true character". That's a harsh judgment to post about someone, though, as the implication there is that you view everything I say and do as suspect and colored by whatever it is I did to offend you. Since you feel strongly enough about it that you came into the dead thread QT uninvited to scold me and you felt the need to tell the entire mafia playgroup that I have some darker or sinister "true character", perhaps you would be willing to at least PM me what it is that I did or said that is at the root of this? Whatever it was, it seems like it deeply impacted you but I do not recall you and I having a tremendous amount of interaction with one another, so I am completely at a loss as to how or when I wronged you. At least tell me what I've done and allow me a chance to say that I was wrong and if it's possible to make it right.
I read TC's final paragraph wherein he reveals that he has some personal bad feelings towards me, and implies that he knows my "true character". If I restrict myself only to interactions on these forums, I can think of two things I've done which might have offended him. If I open up my entire life, well there's lots of things in there, mostly from well before I joined these forums, that I'm not so proud of. Quite frankly though, I've had the feeling for some time that TC doesn't like me. My truest character is that I would prefer to get along with all and if I offend someone I want to make it right.
@Thundercat - Obviously at some time or in some way over the years I gave you a great offense. I am unaware of what incident or incidents caused you to make a lens through which you view me that you refer to as my "true character". That's a harsh judgment to post about someone, though, as the implication there is that you view everything I say and do as suspect and colored by whatever it is I did to offend you. Since you feel strongly enough about it that you came into the dead thread QT uninvited to scold me and you felt the need to tell the entire mafia playgroup that I have some darker or sinister "true character", perhaps you would be willing to at least PM me what it is that I did or said that is at the root of this? Whatever it was, it seems like it deeply impacted you but I do not recall you and I having a tremendous amount of interaction with one another, so I am completely at a loss as to how or when I wronged you. At least tell me what I've done and allow me a chance to say that I was wrong and if it's possible to make it right.
We feared a mafia listener. Did we not say that somewhere? I figured we might have. I mean, we were SUPER OP so that was my first instinct
flubbucket1
New member
So to be clear....
I'm dead.
Someone actually killed a sweet innocent mentally challenged young boy.
I don't want to live on this planet anymore....
until the next game.
I'm dead.
Someone actually killed a sweet innocent mentally challenged young boy.
I don't want to live on this planet anymore....
until the next game.
Well, you are like around a thousand years old ... not sure about "young boy".
flubbucket1
New member
I've been asked to co-host with one of the more experienced hosts so that will be coming up sometime late this year or early next year I would expect, and from our first conversation about the game, I think it's gonna be a really cool game. I'm glad you enjoyed reading along.
Caluin Graye
New member
Twice! We tried twice, but someone decided to save you or something.
Kestegs
Active member
Yes, that pretty well sums up our QT.
Congrats to the mafia. I think most of the criticism is out there, the only thing I'd like to reiterate is that there was way too many unlynchables / resurrection mechanics and too many hidden mechanics. I still do not know half of what happened in the game.
@Drixx: Could you post the night by night actions? And the roles (with all the hidden information)
@Drixx: Could you post the night by night actions? And the roles (with all the hidden information)
We had more posts in the QT then the actual game thread until kestegs decided to die (again)
djmbbandie
Well-known member
Never put me, pharph, Jcakes, BPC and Kegs on a team again, or else, you'll get 1400 posts.