City Mafia Game Thread

[Goryani]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

I agree with this completely, but as a townie that would have been my very first response. What I found odd was that neither coju nor pyro mentioned this reason over a total of what, 6 posts?

Do you honestly believe "to stop mafia from taking it" is at all plausible for someone with the 2nd pick? How about 17th pick? How about any other pick?

why on earth would you give them that answer when neither had so much as mentioned it before? You on a team with one of them? Trying to tip them off to the answer that will let them off the hook?

I vehemently disagree. "To stop mafia from taking it" is the worst reason for a townie picking ninja. It's worse than a townie picking ninja in the first place.

Oh and look at that! Very next post Pyro now claims that was his initial reason. Maybe it was, or maybe you just listened to what your partner just recommended.

Pyro said nothing about initial reason. Furthermore, his reason for townie taking ninja ISN'T to stop mafia from getting it. In Pyro's very next post (#57) he said a reason for townie picking ninja is so that mafia watcher/tracker won't find townie power roles that also target the townie ninja. While I agree with your later criticisms about that not being a great reason, I still think it's a better reason than "to stop mafia from getting it."

 

[Valhauros]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

This game is oozing with liquid drama. The entire day phase has been a constant battle to single out possible scum, but all I see is people shooting at random directions in order to secure a lynch. Right now I don't find any player to be a good lynching candidate.

They way I see it, theoretically, the more tranquil players (active posters without much pointing and lashing) are more likely to be aligned with town, since they understand the importance of a lynch in a game like this one, while the more aggressive ones are more likely to belong to mafia, out of despair or in accordance to the confusion that this game presents. Also, I believe there are only two scenarios regarding the mafia: Either they all failed at life and got awful roles, making them desperate to create diversions, or they got a powerful set of roles and will keep quiet most of the game until it's no longer necessary (like our mafia team did last game).

In this game more than in any other before, we should apply the "lynch all liars" rule. You get caught in a lie, you get the hell out.

 

[flubbucket1]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

...I vehemently disagree. "To stop mafia from taking it" is the worst reason for a townie picking ninja. It's worse than a townie picking ninja in the first place...

Help me understand this.

When it came time for me to submit my role bid, ninja was one of my “short list” choices for the reasons others have listed. I tried to think of roles I wouldn’t want to have fall into mafia hands. Granted my bid was quite far down the line, but I was using what I thought was logic.

However, you claim it is the worst possible reason. So what am I missing? I'm not intending any sarcasm, simply trying to understand why my thinking could be sooo wrong.

 

[Pyrotechnician1]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Can't believe I have to do this again.. Slightly paraphrased because I'm lazy.

Ok, I do see the Irony now, you want a mass roll claim because we have to see past the roles and to the actual alignment to accomplish anything. However Badass is against mass role claim because it gives mafia targets, but he states that people yelling oh oh I'm the cop, oh oh I'm the doctor will stop us from securing a lynch. Although jumping on the wagon to only seems logical if I refused to respond with a decent arguement, not just jump on because we can.

Assume Pyro and coju are townie...

If townie-Pyro picked ninja with the 2nd pick, do you think he did it to keep scum from getting it. Would you rather see townie-Pyro pick a role which can't be fooled by a ninja (cop, rolecop, bus driver, roleblocker, jailkeeper). Would you rather see townie-Pyro pick a "townie power role" to make sure mafia doesn't steal it from the town exactly like Pyro said he would if he was maifa (#15)?

Assume Pyro and coju are mafia...

If mafia-Pyro picked ninja with the 2nd pick, do you think he is following through with his "if I were mafia" goal of ensuring mafia don't get investigated (#48)?

Do you honestly believe "to stop mafia from taking it" is at all plausible for someone with the 2nd pick? How about 17th pick? How about any other pick?

I vehemently disagree. "To stop mafia from taking it" is the worst reason for a townie picking ninja. It's worse than a townie picking ninja in the first place.

Pyro said nothing about initial reason. Furthermore, his reason for townie taking ninja ISN'T to stop mafia from getting it. In Pyro's very next post (#57) he said a reason for townie picking ninja is so that mafia watcher/tracker won't find townie power roles that also target the townie ninja. While I agree with your later criticisms about that not being a great reason, I still think it's a better reason than "to stop mafia from getting it."

I can't really tell if your trying to help me or hurt me? The first posts you are siting are points where I was answering your questions, since you directed the at me and I gave you my responses which then brought about this whole thing of role selection. Then your next post however is saying that my reasoning however it may not be a great reason is better than what was presented afterwards which is the basis for Gwaihir's arguement.

I would not say saying "lol" at the start of a post is a symbol of irony pyro. He has stated twice "if people are gonna post like this then this is dumb" (slightly paraphrased because I'm lazy)

I don't define having lol at the front of the post meaning that it indicates irony, its just the chain of posts and responses that makes it seem ironic.

This game is oozing with liquid drama. The entire day phase has been a constant battle to single out possible scum, but all I see is people shooting at random directions in order to secure a lynch. Right now I don't find any player to be a good lynching candidate.

They way I see it, theoretically, the more tranquil players (active posters without much pointing and lashing) are more likely to be aligned with town, since they understand the importance of a lynch in a game like this one, while the more aggressive ones are more likely to belong to mafia, out of despair or in accordance to the confusion that this game presents. Also, I believe there are only two scenarios regarding the mafia: Either they all failed at life and got awful roles, making them desperate to create diversions, or they got a powerful set of roles and will keep quiet most of the game until it's no longer necessary (like our mafia team did last game).

In this game more than in any other before, we should apply the "lynch all liars" rule. You get caught in a lie, you get the hell out.

The lynch all liars seems fair enough, but the problem is we don't know of any liars as of yet so what do you suppose we do? If there was a new direction that we should take this in what should it be since we only have <12 hours to do it? The game is possibley going to be imbalanced and we knew that from the start, but I'm not sure I understand your reasoning for the aggresive/tranquil stance. Since people are drawing attention to themselves and others they are more likely scum, and the defensive players are more likely to be town? There are still a couple of lurkers as well, shouldn't we be concerned about them?

 

[Goryani]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Fair enough.. I was tempted to pick the Ninja just to piss people off.

Unvote: Bad Ash
Vote: Pyrotechnician

Bandwagon people?

Learn anything from voting BA or Pyro?

Wow, really going to start a bandwagon over that? Noodle wasn't a popular choice, so let's all go for the #2 role picker since he has a good chance of being a power roll!


Vote: Sathoris

I find your logic disturbing

Do you think Sathoris' logic is the mentioned "let's all go for the #2?" What do you think of the "let's all go for the #1" proponents?

[Noodle] would know, if he was town, that he could possibly damage the town severely by picking a major power role only to be nked right off the bat and losing it to the town.

In the first couple of picks, is it safe to assume that people would be thinking this way? Or is that giving them too much credit? the first two picks, if they were major power roles could be higher chance to be mafia if they weren't worried about losing that role to getting targeted early on. Make sense? (I am not looking for role reveals this early on, just trying to get some solid logic on where we can pursure this game)

Let me see if I understand you. You think a townie-Noodle wouldn't pick a major power role. Therefore, a townie-Noodle can't help the town much. On the other hand, mafia-Noodle would pick a major power role. Therefore, mafia-Noodle could do significant damage to the town.

WIFOA silliness aside, you think it's statistically safer to lynch Noodle than keep him alive? Can't say I disagree with the conclusion based on the initial supposition, though the definition of major power role is always debatable.

I'm always asking for the next steps, and here is no exception. Suppose the town tries to lynch Noodle and succeeds. Come tomorrow, how do we analyze the votes? Is there anything to be learned from who voted Noodle versus who didn't vote Noodle?

Throwing votes around in this game is BAD and very very scummy to me because of this, and you are a vet too making it worse

I don't get a good vibe from this statement. Look at what Noodle said last game (as mafia) regarding all the silly D1 votes. Stifling discussion and voting is BAD for the town.

Without early votes, the typical reason for the typical voter who voted for the D1 lynchee is: "because a lynch is better than a no lynch." Early votes, at a minimum, give everyone time to look at alternative lynches.

 

[Asrrin]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

The biggest reason I'm voting Bad Ash is because he keeps vehemently denying Noodle having a power role. any role Noodle chooses will be powerful to whichever faction he belongs to, and he's guaranteed to get it. Bad Ash refusing to see this makes me think Bad Ash knows something we don't.

I agree 100% with Valhouros. Lynch all Liars. However we will have to wait until tomorrow to start using that ethic, as Today, with virtually no information other than our own accusations, it's going to be a crap shoot. I can tell you who NOT to lynch, but I can't say who definitely should be lynched, other than my stated reasons for BA.

 

[flubbucket1]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Okay I'll bite...who should we NOT lynch??

 

[Caluin Graye]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Current vote count:
Sathoris (4): kestegs; Ankeli; Bad Ash; Pyrotechnician
Bad Ash (3): Sathoris; Asrrin; zemaj
zemaj (1): Goryani
Pyrotechnician (1): Gwaihir
Gwaihir (1): coju

The day ends in roughly 9 hours from now.

 

[Sathoris]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Learn anything from voting BA or Pyro?

A bit, but people misunderstood my original motion and squandered the opportunity.

This game is oozing with liquid drama. The entire day phase has been a constant battle to single out possible scum, but all I see is people shooting at random directions in order to secure a lynch. Right now I don't find any player to be a good lynching candidate.

They way I see it, theoretically, the more tranquil players (active posters without much pointing and lashing) are more likely to be aligned with town, since they understand the importance of a lynch in a game like this one, while the more aggressive ones are more likely to belong to mafia, out of despair or in accordance to the confusion that this game presents. Also, I believe there are only two scenarios regarding the mafia: Either they all failed at life and got awful roles, making them desperate to create diversions, or they got a powerful set of roles and will keep quiet most of the game until it's no longer necessary (like our mafia team did last game).

In this game more than in any other before, we should apply the "lynch all liars" rule. You get caught in a lie, you get the hell out.

This is a terrible post. All you're (not so subtlety) saying is that your playstyle is looking like that of a townie's while someone with some votes and could perhaps be lynched is indicative of scum. Then you mumble the Lynch all liars rule which holds no value whatsoever so far.

To hell with the people who condemn vote switching. This post warrants a vote.

Unvote: Bad Ash
Vote: Valhauros

BA is acting weird but not scum weird. Just a bit stuckup, pretentious and naive. But still loveable alltogether. And worth keeping around for now.

I'll take a no lynch today.

 

[Kestegs]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Do you think Sathoris' logic is the mentioned "let's all go for the #2?" What do you think of the "let's all go for the #1" proponents?

The first part: I did at the time, not so sure anymore though. Looks like he is now going for the tactic of "too scummy to be scum"

part two: I originally thought Noodle should stay for the day, and I think that is probably still fine. His one post that barely even counts as contributory is a bit worrisome though. I didn't understand the logic on scum Noodle vs town Noodle at first but it makes sense now. I could see myself voting Noodle today, but certainly tomorrow if nothing changes.

 

[Goryani]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Doesn't mean much at this point. You would think by now that you would realize how people are going to react and act accordingly.

That goes both ways. Are you surprised at Sathoris' actions? He's acting like Sathoris to me.

On the other hand, I am surprised at Asrrin. He and Sathoris have somewhat similar styles (which is why they often tangle with each other). Sathoris is being Sathoris but Asrrin isn't being Asrrin. What gives?

I didn't realize I was supposed to be satisfying you, gwaihir.

If I failed to mention before: I would gave chose the ninja simply for the name. It wouldn't have bothered me what powers the role had. While reading the thread, after coming across zemaj's post, I did have the thought that it would keep the scum from getting it (also after reading what the role actually did).


And how is that the most important reason? Just because you think so? The most important reason to me, when asked the question of what I would have picked, was the fact that I could have been a ninja, and that would jave been totally awesome. I really didn't care, as once I saw ninja, that's what I would have been.

Your initial reason (that you like it) is believable to me. Your later reason (it would deny mafia-Gambor the ninja role) is not at all believable to me.

Imagine a mafia choosing the ninja role. Imagine mafia being questioned about it. Imagine the mafia trying to come up with a plausible reason. Imagine the mafia realizing the initial reason was getting some heat, so they co-opt a reason made by someone else that isn't getting heat. Imagine mafia getting heat for flip-flopping. Imagine mafia going back to the original reason. That scenario isn't utterly out of the realm of possibility. It's also, pretty much verbatim, how you went through the ninja conversation.

How can the town possibly come to the conclusion that you are town? Lynch all liars would trigger hard and so fast on you.

Nitpick: When you say a phrase like "Zemaj posted exactly what I thought" then you admit all previous thoughts you have on the matter are invalid. You admit you have no other thoughts to add. You are placing the entirety of Zemaj's words as the entirety of your words.

My whole main issue is people are treating this like normal mafia and it clearly isnt. I am trying to point out valid things we all need to think about because the town is at a disadvantage in this game for reasons I have stated previously.

Can you expand on why you think town are at a disadvantage this game?

I would not say saying "lol" at the start of a post is a symbol of irony pyro. He has stated twice "if people are gonna post like this then this is dumb" (slightly paraphrased because I'm lazy)

Sath thinks some players are being stupid and making stupid posts. Sath thinks mass claiming is stupid. Sath thinks that if others are being stupid and making stupid posts, maybe he should also be stupid and make stupid posts such as advocating a mass claim. You think Sath is being serious when he says he is advocating for a mass claim. You later say that mass claiming is stupid. You're voting Sathoris in part because you share the same opinion on this issue. That's irony.

In this game more than in any other before, we should apply the "lynch all liars" rule. You get caught in a lie, you get the hell out.

Have you caught anyone in a lie so far this game?

 

[Kestegs]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

That goes both ways. Are you surprised at Sathoris' actions? He's acting like Sathoris to me.

Yea, I'm not real impressed by that statement myself xD

I guess I was surprised, but I have played with Sath maybe twice now and not very recently, I don't remember him being so aggressive in the past.

On the other hand, I am surprised at Asrrin. He and Sathoris have somewhat similar styles (which is why they often tangle with each other). Sathoris is being Sathoris but Asrrin isn't being Asrrin. What gives?

Asrrin is a bit out of character, I agree. He did get lynched as the cop on D1 last game though.

 

[Goryani]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Help me understand this.

When it came time for me to submit my role bid, ninja was one of my “short list†choices for the reasons others have listed. I tried to think of roles I wouldn’t want to have fall into mafia hands. Granted my bid was quite far down the line, but I was using what I thought was logic.

However, you claim it is the worst possible reason. So what am I missing? I'm not intending any sarcasm, simply trying to understand why my thinking could be sooo wrong.

Pick order is relevant in this game. If someone is going to use a logical reason like "to deny mafia" as justification for picking a role, then the pick has to be logical with respect to pick order.Picking ninja to deny mafia a role is a bad idea for the #2 and #17 picker.

The #2 picker, if townie and trying to prevent mafia from having certain roles, should not pick a weak role like ninja. There are far too many roles more important to prevent mafia from having: cop, doc, role-thief, treestump, Watcher, Tracker, Rolecop, vigilante, bus driver, bomb, roleblocker, hider, SK, coroner, restless spirit, jailkeeper, double voter. Hider is far more important to deny mafia than either ninja or godfather. A hider allows mafia to protect against nearly half the available roles on half the nights. Sorry, coju, I think ninja is better than godfather (godfather protects against only 1 ability to the ninja's 2). I think I'd go further by saying mafia gain more power from the roles of bulletproof and party-host (incredible "why don't mafia kill you" cred plus it denies the ability for town to use those powers against the mafia. So out of 25 possible roles, I'd put ninja at no higher than 20th in terms of denying mafia a certain role.

The #17 picker, as I've mentioned, has a single player to deny a role to. coju can deny Gambor and no one else. Someone picking #17 might choose to pick ninja to see if players 1-16 chose ninja. IMHO, that's a "good" reason for picking ninja at 17, but it's a completely separate reason than denying mafia the ninja role.

I'm not going to judge you, at pick #12, by the same criteria I judge Pyro at #2 and coju at #17.

 

[Goryani]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

I can't really tell if your trying to help me or hurt me? The first posts you are siting are points where I was answering your questions, since you directed the at me and I gave you my responses which then brought about this whole thing of role selection. Then your next post however is saying that my reasoning however it may not be a great reason is better than what was presented afterwards which is the basis for Gwaihir's arguement.

I'm neither trying to hurt you nor help you as I haven't yet decided if you should be hurt or helped. I'm giving you freedom to dig your own grave or dig your way out of any hole you may be in.

My comments were directed toward zemaj, who advocated everyone dropping the ninja topic and toward Gwaihir, who chastised zemaj for giving you such a great excuse when you didn't ever really co-opt the great excuse in the first place. Guilty conscience?

part two: I originally thought Noodle should stay for the day, and I think that is probably still fine. His one post that barely even counts as contributory is a bit worrisome though. I didn't understand the logic on scum Noodle vs town Noodle at first but it makes sense now. I could see myself voting Noodle today, but certainly tomorrow if nothing changes.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I wasn't asking whether you would lynch Noodle. I was asking what you thought of players wanting to lynch Noodle for the reason that Noodle had the #1 pick. I was also implicitly asking what you thought of players who think other players who want to lynch the #1 pick are scummy.

That got confusing. Let me ask another way: Which is scummier - wanting to lynch the #1 picker or wanting to lynch someone wanting to lynch the #1 picker?

 

[Kestegs]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Why do you keep going back and quoting old posts? You are acting very...odd.

I don't think I can fairly answer that last question in a vacuum, I think either one could be scummy depending on the circumstances.

 

[flubbucket1]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Well I guess it just goes to show my infantile understanding of the roles. I see things like "immunity" and think simplistically, "I don't want them to have that." Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Noodle]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

The first part: I did at the time, not so sure anymore though. Looks like he is now going for the tactic of "too scummy to be scum"

part two: I originally thought Noodle should stay for the day, and I think that is probably still fine. His one post that barely even counts as contributory is a bit worrisome though. I didn't understand the logic on scum Noodle vs town Noodle at first but it makes sense now. I could see myself voting Noodle today, but certainly tomorrow if nothing changes.

Yeah, I was flying home from New Orleans yesterday, didn't have a whole lot of time available to post. I tend to start games without posting a ton anyway - I'm more of a "take it all in" guy, at least early on. I don't really have any strong suspicions yet, I'm afraid. I do feel that a mass role reveal is a horrible idea, both tactically and for the fun of the game, and believe that a lynch of some sort is for the good of the town, as it will reveal information.

 

[Pyrotechnician1]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Well you seem to have been very busy in the last hour or so.

Pick order is relevant in this game. If someone is going to use a logical reason like "to deny mafia" as justification for picking a role, then the pick has to be logical with respect to pick order.Picking ninja to deny mafia a role is a bad idea for the #2 and #17 picker.

The #2 picker, if townie and trying to prevent mafia from having certain roles, should not pick a weak role like ninja. There are far too many roles more important to prevent mafia from having: cop, doc, role-thief, treestump, Watcher, Tracker, Rolecop, vigilante, bus driver, bomb, roleblocker, hider, SK, coroner, restless spirit, jailkeeper, double voter. Hider is far more important to deny mafia than either ninja or godfather. A hider allows mafia to protect against nearly half the available roles on half the nights. Sorry, coju, I think ninja is better than godfather (godfather protects against only 1 ability to the ninja's 2). I think I'd go further by saying mafia gain more power from the roles of bulletproof and party-host (incredible "why don't mafia kill you" cred plus it denies the ability for town to use those powers against the mafia. So out of 25 possible roles, I'd put ninja at no higher than 20th in terms of denying mafia a certain role.

Being the #2 picker I obviously went through this decision and determined that yes, ninja would be a weak role to choose in comparison to the rest, and you can see that in my original reasoning stating that it was not a practical choice.

I'm neither trying to hurt you nor help you as I haven't yet decided if you should be hurt or helped. I'm giving you freedom to dig your own grave or dig your way out of any hole you may be in.

My comments were directed toward zemaj, who advocated everyone dropping the ninja topic and toward Gwaihir, who chastised zemaj for giving you such a great excuse when you didn't ever really co-opt the great excuse in the first place. Guilty conscience?

Sorry it was hard to determine that from a fairly long post that consisted mainly of points and quote references involving myself so it seemed any conclusion reached had to involve me in some way but I see you were only making those points to build your case against zemaj. I think zemaj's point was to try and move onto a different topic because he didn't see it going anywhere, but of course I can't really answer for him, so I'm not going to try.

 

[Gwaihir]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Do you honestly believe "to stop mafia from taking it" is at all plausible for someone with the 2nd pick? How about 17th pick? How about any other pick?

Definite no to both 2 and 17. Pyro actually mentioned one reason he did not pick it was that he got an early pick, which I found to be reasonable. The only picks I think would be reasonable would be around halfway or shortly after.

I vehemently disagree. "To stop mafia from taking it" is the worst reason for a townie picking ninja. It's worse than a townie picking ninja in the first place.

Could you explain why you think it is an awful reason? I don't think picking ninja would be a great choice, but I can at least see the reasoning behind trying to prevent mafia from being untrackable/watchable, at least compared to any other reasons that were given before.

Pyro said nothing about initial reason. Furthermore, his reason for townie taking ninja ISN'T to stop mafia from getting it. In Pyro's very next post (#57) he said a reason for townie picking ninja is so that mafia watcher/tracker won't find townie power roles that also target the townie ninja. While I agree with your later criticisms about that not being a great reason, I still think it's a better reason than "to stop mafia from getting it."

Looking back, you are correct, he did not say anything about initial reason. I appeared to have jumped to that conclusion without reading carefully enough. To be honest, I thought I had just caught a scum in a flip-flop, and jumped on it. So I went after him hard, and hoped to see some sort of panicked scum response to the accusation.

 

[Bad Ash]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

The biggest reason I'm voting Bad Ash is because he keeps vehemently denying Noodle having a power role. any role Noodle chooses will be powerful to whichever faction he belongs to, and he's guaranteed to get it. Bad Ash refusing to see this makes me think Bad Ash knows something we don't.

I agree 100% with Valhouros. Lynch all Liars. However we will have to wait until tomorrow to start using that ethic, as Today, with virtually no information other than our own accusations, it's going to be a crap shoot. I can tell you who NOT to lynch, but I can't say who definitely should be lynched, other than my stated reasons for BA.

If we are to lynch all liars assrin is top of the list.

Show me one example where I "vehemently" disagree that Noodle has a power role? I made a post making a suggestion after Noodles first post. That thought again: If Noodle is town and thought about the strategy of the game, he would realize that he would be a prime target for the first NK because he is guarunteed to get the role he chooses. If that is the case, then would it be smarter to choose a less important role? Possibly, who knows! It is WIFOA.

Again, I dont think "having a role" = having a "power role". I will pick specific ones and explain to why I dont think every role is powerful if you would like me to, but its just arguing semantics and not going to get us anywhere. I have no idea if Noodle has a power role (my definition) or not, I just know that he has a role. If I have "vehemently" said Noodle does not have a power role please quote it for me.


Someone asked me why I think the town is at a disadvantage this game, and I will say it again: role claiming should most likely not prevent a lynch in this game. The cop can be mafia. The doc can be mafia. Masons can be mafia (we have no reasons to think otherwise). In normal games, these are almost always town roles so when that person is 1-2 votes away from a lock they can say "no, I am the doc, don't lynch me!" and it can prevent the lynch from happening if there is plausible reason to believe that person, possibly saving the lynch and the town power role. That is the difference.


As for the whole ninja debate: I had a lower pick. I sadly was not thinking of "what can I pick to block the mafia" I was thinking "what can I pick that has not yet been picked". Picking a role to see if its been picked could be a better strategy in that cause, but I wanted a role and made an educated guess on one that could be available. Anyone else with a lower pick have the same thoughts? Or do I get 800 scum points for trying to get a role?


TLDR one more thought though: Anyone think the "cities" in our roles can prove town vs anti-town? Cal obviously had an interest in them and needed them for his records. Its an added wrinkle that could maybe save a townie? Would like to hear peoples thoughts on this.