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Vessel of Hatred

2h avenger - need advice

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wacktapaz

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Dec 2, 2010
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2h avenger - need advice

Hi,
So I've gotten my hands on a zod rune and a planning on trying to do a 2 handed avenger build by using breath of the dying.
What im not sure of is what weapon/aura is the best to use.
Vengeance depends on weapon damage since that is what generate the elemental damage, and it depends on weapon speed since its... well slow.
Therefor there are as far as i can tell two ways to go about it. Either go for a weapon with massive damage like a thunder maul - high physical damage = high elemental damage, and then use fanaticism to boost the speed.
Or use a weapon with lower damage but faster attack speed like giant tresher, colossus blade or great poleaxe - lower phys damage = lower elemental damage, but then use conviction aura to lower enemy res. and thereby do more elemental damage.
So whats the best thing to do?

Thanks.

p.s. im not exactly rich, so cant really afford a merc with infinity or brand...
 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

First, I would ask how serious you are about the 2H Avenger. If it is just something you want to play around with, I'd say make the BotD in a weapon that other characters can use.

Also, check use the weapon speed calc to figure out your breakpoints. I made a 2H Fanatic Avenger with 10fpa which I found to be adequate. Any slower, though, he probably would have been unenjoyable and been more difficult to play.

It might have been my item/charm set-up, but even with Fanaticism, my Avenger's AR was low and I relied on an Infinity merc to hit things. If I were to make one without Infinity, I would probably use Conviction on myself to bypass any AR issues and focus my items around defensive/survival stats.
 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

Well, if you do go with the 2H Avenger and you do get tired of it, if its in a Thunder maul you can use it on a charger for excellent damage output. That being said, yes vengance is incredibly slow because it uses the normal attack animation, so essentially like not even using a skill. I would highly recommend using conviction somewhere in your set up, if not with your merc than you should use it yourself because as Doctor Clock mentioned without it your going to need a lot of AR boosting gear and monsters in hell tend to have high resistances so even with high stacked elemental damage it won't really do you any good if your hitting one out of every 5 swings.

For my personal avenger I couldn't really afford to get an infinity, or a faith (lvl 15 fanacticism isn't bad), so I used a beast for the lvl 9 fanac. So use the weapon speed calculator provided above to figure out whats the best weapon base to use. I personally couldn't handle not having a shield on my avenger since it takes so long to hit everyone in a group that without blocking I took massive amounts of damage before clearing a crowd and the life leach just was not cutting it. The best option is probably an ebotd zerker (I know everyone uses it...) but its probably the fastest base without sacrificing tons of damage.
 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

You should be able to get to your max attack speed (10fpa) without Fanaticism, which is fortunate, because Conviction is far and away the best aura to use with Vengeance. The best BotD options for a 2H Avenger are:

Champion Axe (~545 average damage, needs 39 IAS to hit 10fpa breakpoint)
(+) Fast, usable by WW Barbs
(-) Lowest damage here

Giant Thresher (~550 damage, needs 39 IAS)
(+) Fast, long range, usable by WW Barbs and mercs, looks awesome
(-) High dexterity requirement

Great Poleaxe (~615 damage, needs 78 IAS)
(+) Balanced damage and speed, long range, usable by WW Barbs and mercs
(-) None

Archon Staff (~650 damage, needs 134 IAS)
(+) High minimum damage, no stat requirements, provides satisfying "Klomp" sound effects with each hit
(-) Short range, slow

Glorious Axe (~655 damage, needs 134 IAS)
(+) High damage, looks awesome enough for this character
(-) Slow

Thunder Maul (~760 damage, needs 220 IAS)
(+) Highest damage available, usable by Chargers
(-) Absurdly slow, high strength requirement, low minimum damage

As Dr. Clock and Pyrotechnician said, your choice is probably going to depend the most on what other characters you might use this weapon for. Accordingly, I would pick the Great Poleaxe. Not only is it great for this character, but it's versatile enough that your future Fury Druid/WW Barb/Charger Pally/Might Merc won't be disappointed by your item choice.
 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

Thanks a lot for all the quick replies. LordC, glad to hear you think a great poleaxe would be best, that was the one I was leaning towards myself.
So a BotD great poleaxe and conviction aura it is.
You guys got any sugestions for all the other gear? Since I wont be using a shield, damage reduction and life leech would seem to be of extra importance, as well as increased attack speed.

What I therefore was thinking of using was: treachery - for the 45%ias and fade, a vamp gaze or crown of ages either with a 15%ias jewel, verdungos or string of ears belt and a pair of 20%ias gloves - laying hands, magnus' skin, crafted/rare gloves.
This should give me 80%ias and bring me to the break point, 30-35% damage reduction, life/mana leech from gaze or in case of crown of ages, fhr and res
- both very useful.

Your thoughts?
 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

Have you played an avenger before?
 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

When choosing your other gear your going to have to try and consider what FHR breakpoint you can reach, I think that will determine most of your gear choice. Remember that your life leach will be based on your physical damage, not your total damage with vengance so that is definately a factor, Botd provides you with 12-15 LL and 7 ML off the bat. For all pvm I really do favor laying of hands, mainly because 350% ed to demons is just awesome paired with 20 ias and 50 fire res, which you will definately need because it will be lacking with this setup. The only downside is once again the 350% ed is based on your physical damage so not much help. Vamp gaze will provide you with both life leach and mana leach (helpful because vengance is a mana hog) and decent damage reduction, I would socket it with an Um or res jewel to help boost your res. Between verdungos and string is a hard choice. Depends how much more life leach you need I would guess, test it out since they both provide %DR, the only real factor is FHR.

Anyway maybe a summary will be better, assuming top variables:
gloves - LOH 20 ias, 50 fire res
belt - String 8 ll, 15% dr or Verdungo 10 FHR, 40 Vit, 15% dr
Weap - Botd 15 ll, 7 ml
Armor - Treachery 45 ias, 20 fhr, 30 cold res, fade (60 all res, 15% dr), venom
helm - Vamp 8 ll, 8 ml, 20% dr
Amulet - Highlords wrath, 1 to skills, 20 ias, 35 light res, deadly strike
Rings - Ravenfrost 20 dex, cannot be frozen, 20% cold absorb
Ring - Rare dual leach stat/res ring
Boots - Treks 20 fhr, 15 str, 15 vit, 70 poison res or gores if you really want the cb since its no where else.

Using string and treks and um in gaze assuming fade is active though comes out to this:
85 ias, 31 ll, 15 ml, 50% dr, 40 FHR,
Res (with all anya quests done in hell):
Fire - 55
Light - 40
Cold - 35
Poison - 75
Only one plus skill though from highlords, but with a torch, and anni (if you have an anni of course, if not use a CTA on switch or off aura charm if not) you'll reach lvl 25 conviction and almost max all your res if using only a torch.

Not counting whatever your other ring ends up to be. Sounds pretty solid in my mind, but I could be wrong, going to need some more FHR in charms though to make it work.

Edit: After thinking about this, I might just use this setup as well, haha!
 
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Re: 2h avenger - need advice

Pyrotech tanks. I think the gear set-up you suggest is, if not THE perfect set-up for the build very close to the perfect.
The only thing Im considering changing would be the helm and the and the amulet. For the helm maybe Crown of Ages 5% less damage reduction and no life/mana leech unlike gaze, but already comes with res. all, fhr, plus skill and sockets, then insert a 15%ias jewel(+ an um if it got 2 sockets) and that should be enougth to hit the 80%ias.
As for amulets im considering changing high lord for either Seraphs hymn - +2 to all pala skills and 2+ to def aura, which synergieses with vengeance. Or a
rare amulet i have with 2+ paladin skills, 17 to all res, 18 energy, 50% poison length, replenish life 3+, max stamina 7+.
I also have this rare ring with 5% life leech, 3% mana leech, 23% fire res, 1+ to max damage, 1 mana after each kill (this could maybe make up for some of the mana/life leech lost if not using gaze).

Still dont know if these changes would be better than your original suggestions, a tougth call...
 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

I'm always open to suggestions when it comes to improving a build. :yes:

Its hard to choose the amulets and rings, except for ravenfrost becasue the cannot be frozen is a must, mainly because you never know what kind of rare items the person has available to them. That dual leech ring will do nicely, but it would be better if it was actually lightning res, as that is probably going to kill you the most (souls are terrible things) but the major elements are fire and lightning so it should workout since your adding COA which is a another 30 res all. The COA if its two sockets gives you a little bit more flexibility then the gaze did as well since you are correct by using a 15ias jewel you still hit 80 ias.

If I had to choose one of the amulets you have that wasn't highlords, I would definately choose the 2 pally skills 17 res all over seraphs. Seraphs has no resistance bonuses, the +dmg/ar to demons and undead is hardly going to do anything for you, and the 2 to defensive auras wont help you in the least bit. Synergies only work for hard points spent in a skill.

If you do the switch out your looking at your revised stats are somewhat like this using a perfect COA with an ias jewel and an um rune and the rare ammy and ring:
80 ias, 28 ll, 10 ml, 45% dr, 70 FHR,
Res (with all anya quests done in hell, and if you could get above 75):
Fire - 125
Light - 52
Cold - 82
Poison - 122
3 plus skills without any charms. Any additional charms would be just stacking resists at this point except in the lightning department (sorry the boost to that one isn't as great since you lost the 35 from highlords).

Just keep in mind, while this may be the perfect setup, getting all of these items with perfect variables is highly unlikely so your damage reduction, res, and leech amounts won't all be this high. Your COA will probably be either high res and low dr, or low res and high dr, etc. etc. so the second socket choice might change depending on what you value higher.

That looks pretty solid as well, you didn't really lose much in the line of life leach or damage reduction (5% is nothing to worry about) and gained 30 FHR and some plus skills.
 
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Re: 2h avenger - need advice

Also, use these tables to figure out your FHR breakpoints. If you don't need the 20 FHR from Sandstorm Treks I wouldn't use them. They don't offer much outside of Poison Resists and most of my characters solo Hell with negative Poison resists just fine. I personally would use something with Lightning Resists to get it up to 75.
 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

Alright, I didn't know the exact FHR breakpoints, so in this case though since a polearm is technically not in the spear class (someone correct me if I'm wrong because it will definately change the attainable Hit Recovery) a 5 frame hit recovery is 48 FHR and a 4 frame hit recovery is 86 and 3 is 200 FHR so either shoot for the 5 or 4 frame. If your comfortable with the 5 frame then do as doctor clock suggests and drop the treks and switch them out for some res boots to up the lightning, or go for gores for the crushing blow/open wounds/deadly strike just so you have some form of crushing blow small as it may be. If you want to try for the 4 frame then you can either drop the treks and get 36% FHR from charms (preferably 3 skiller/12% FHR grand charms), or keep the boots and get 16% FHR from charms (2 large ones will do, or some other combination).
 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

I was planning on going for the 4 frames at 86fhr so sandstorm will probably have to stay in the gear. Also just found a 8fhr large charm and a 5fhr small, so with all the gear so far i will only be 3 points away.
 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

wacktapaz said:
I was planning on going for the 4 frames at 86fhr so sandstorm will probably have to stay in the gear. Also just found a 8fhr large charm and a 5fhr small, so with all the gear so far i will only be 3 points away.
Click to expand...

fhr is not necessary for an avenger since its pvm. Just use gores imo.


 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

But without some good FHR will I not be constantly interrupted when fighting bigger mobs?
Im planning on using a defiance merc with reapers toll for extra defence and crowd control, but will a good FHR rate not be needed still?
 
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Re: 2h avenger - need advice

minuses said:
fhr is not necessary for an avenger since its pvm. Just use gores imo.
Click to expand...

This is just plain wrong, especially on a 2h Avenger. Vengeance is an interruptible attack, so FHR is absolutely necessary. Not to mention that War Travs are superior to Gores on an Avenger.



 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

FHR is definately needed as Doctor Clock said, especially since you won't have a shield to block with. He recommends the War travs probably for the adds 15-25 dmg mod so that you have a higher base amount that is multiplied by the vengance skill, still your preference though as you should still have plenty of inventory space available for more FHR charms.
 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

Avengers - even shielded ones - are squishy as hell. If you can afford it, take a look at Delirium. The ctc Confuse combined with Decrip really takes a lot of heat off of you, and Reaper's already has the life leech mercs usually get from their helms so you don't lose much there.

To get decent defense you really need two things - high base defense along with +def%. Although tripling your defense will make all the difference, with Treachery and no shield there's not much for Defiance to multiply. Something like Gloom or Fortitude should take your def from 5 to 10k, but I'm not sure if it's worth losing Treachery's IAS.
 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

You pretty much have to expect as a 2H avenger to be hit quite a bit, This is where the FHR and DR% comes in because the more you can negate and faster you get back into the fight the better to keep yourself alive. Even with a big defense armor your defense will still be lacking since there is no shield/holy shield. Fortitude would definately make up this difference but as hubb said replacing that ias would be pretty difficult to hit the next breakpoint, not to mention the loss of fade and venom. Your best bet is probably just to suck up the damage and tank as best as possible.

Edit: The delirium is a good idea, I usually don't mix curses since they overtake one another but the confuse should effect a larger area and the decrep will most likely affect the monsters your currently working on killing.
 
Re: 2h avenger - need advice

Pyrotechnician said:
Edit: The delirium is a good idea, I usually don't mix curses since they overtake one another but the confuse should effect a larger area and the decrep will most likely affect the monsters your currently working on killing.
Click to expand...
Ye, it's really not as bad as people make it out to be, even with something like LT and Decrip. I mean, if you can't survive because your LT just got overwritten by Decrip then you're clearly doing something else wrong.

RE the rest: Fair enough, I just found them reaaally squishy. If you can get your DR close to 50% then that's great, but other than that Defense is the only way to shrug off hits. I guess Treachery's res, DR (Fade should be active most of the time on this char), FHR and IAS is tough to beat :)


 
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