2h avenger - need advice

[heroesmm]

Re: 2h avenger - need advice

Sure. Are those the numbers you actually get when comparing the two armors? I don't have any Diablo 2 characters to check anymore. In any case, I have ignored defense on most of the characters I have built, and I've done some unusual and underpowered builds. They seem to end up surviving fine without it. I don't think defense is bad, I just think other stats are better and my play style has developed to not rely on it. If defense works for you though, go for it.

Thanks for your discussion. I didn't play a 2-hand paladin yet, but I'm very interested in it. The defense values are from estimation. The defense from items other than armor is around 500. Treachery has no defense bonus, so it gives around 500. Prudence has 140-170% enhanced defense, and it self repairs, so you will use an eth bugged armor, resulting around 500*1.5(eth)*1.5(bug)*2.55 = 2900 defense. Adding the other gears gives the total defense around 3400, and I just round it to 3500.
The significance of defense is an interesting question. I understand that it is less useful when you have many minions, or your attack is not interruptable. However, revenge is interruptable, and its fastest speed is 10 frames, and you have just a merc. So wouldn't your revenge be interrupted quite often, severely decreasing your killing speed? Let alone the issue of safety. What's your idea?

 

[Doctor Clock]

Re: 2h avenger - need advice

Your character only goes into hit recovery when he receives more damage than 1/12th of his total health. So you can reduce the occurrence of hit recovery ever taking place, even when getting hit, by increasing your total health pool, and reducing damage taken (resists, %dr, pdr). In addition, when running, all attempts to hit bypass the chance to hit formula. That is to say, you get hit 100% of them time when running.

There are certain enemies that will almost always or frequently put you into hit recovery. For instance, enemies with the extra strong affix, cursed affix, aura enchanted affix, and even some basic enemy types (blood lords, yetis). In all those circumstances, my plan for survival on a 2h paladin or any other underpowered build is to split them apart and kill them, ideally, one at a time. I have no intention of tanking those enemies in packs as they can easily kill you with defense, and without defense. FHR, FRW, and a large effective health pool are, in my experience, the best stats for survival in those circumstances as they will help you get out of lethal situations rather than trying to survive through them. I like to build my characters around the assumption that they will get hit and be able to survive just fine.

As far as kill speed goes, that is a notion that I just abandon when I decide to make an underpowered or unconventional build. If you want to kill things fast, make a Hammerdin. For me, making a 2handed Pally, or any other kind of underpowered build is all about picking bad skills or a bad combination of skills and figuring out a way to make it work. No matter what they're stats, such builds are going to have a harder time surviving and killing. There's a reason hardly anyone makes 2handed Paladins. They are harder and worse in every single way. As a result, I have to end up being creative about how I play them I have had to make sure I am getting the most out of every skill and ability the class has to offer, and be willing to find uses for items I might otherwise overlook. For instance, I never used the Conversion skill until I made a 2handed Zealot. Suddenly, it became very useful. I never thought the Lawbringer runeword was that great until I used it on my 2handed Avenger as a backup weapon to apply Decrepify.

In short, I want to rely on tactics and skills rather than stats to survive. And in my experience, that is what you have to rely on to make builds like this work because you are deliberately hindering yourself in the stat department by picking a build like this in the first place.

 

[heroesmm]

Re: 2h avenger - need advice

Thank you very much for your detailed explanation. I totally agree with your most points.
Just one thing, you said that the 2-hand pal is harder and worse in every single way. Well, shouldn't he has higher damage output than a 1-hand pal? Basically, your weapon damage is doubled, and your attack speed is a little lower (10 f vs. 8 f for revenge; 6 f vs. 4.8 f for zeal, taking into account the last slow swing), so altogether your DPS should be higher by a factor of 1.6. Don't you feel this is a big bonus?

 

[Doctor Clock]

Re: 2h avenger - need advice

Yes, you can get higher character sheet damage with a 2handed Paladin. This might be a worthwhile tradeoff if you were fighting enemies one at a time. However, you are almost always fighting large groups of enemies in D2, which makes the lack of resists and block from foregoing a shield a significant hindrance. That being said, I feel the big bonus of 2handed Paladins are that they are fun, challenging, and they look cool.

 

[heroesmm]

Re: 2h avenger - need advice

So we reach agreement that the 2h pal deals much more damage than 1h pal. To utilize this advantage, the key point is safely facing a pack. What factors can help on this? I can imagine these: holy freeze (from merc or yourself), long range weapon (like ghost spear, great poleaxe), ctc curses (decrepify, blind, flee, confuse, what else?), conversion. How do you think about these methods? Are they going to be enough?

 

[Doctor Clock]

Re: 2h avenger - need advice

Those are all good. There are also good suggestions throughout this thread. If you are using Zeal, Knockback and slow are great. I particularly like Cleglaw's Pincers. Those attributes don't work as well with a single target ability like Vengeance, however. Gloom is another amazing armor. Delerium is a great helm. Charge is also very good for isolating specific targets. However, there is the charge bug which causes your character to freeze, so be prepared to hit the weapon swap button to unfreeze him. Aside from that, make sure you don't get surrounded too often and try to fight in narrow chokes if possible.

 

[Drehnz]

Re: 2h avenger - need advice

I wonder, would this avenger be cool with a war pike? If not, stick with a high speed weapon that also deals pretty damage.

 

[heroesmm]

Re: 2h avenger - need advice

I wonder, would this avenger be cool with a war pike? If not, stick with a high speed weapon that also deals pretty damage.

If you can get enough IAS, then certainly a war pike is cool. However, a pal using a spear has slower hit recovery than using other weapons, and the highest normal attack speed of spear is 11 f (comparing to 10 f for all the other 2-hand weapons). These are downsides you need to take into account.