WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

I dont see your problem, I find that a hybrid can indeed play very offensively.
Against casters you dont have to be more defensive than a ghost at all as you will be doing exactly the same, only your ww dmg will be a bit lower.
If you trap them correctly and do your whirls right theres no prob at all.

I play as offensive as I can against every char that I meet, also against barbs, smiters, hammerdins as long as it is not stupid.
Means if they tele away I wont wait in my trap cube but follow them and put pressure, just dont forget to build up your trapfield constantly.

I disagree to tjenje, who said that a WW/LS sin could not use wof againt casters? WoFs and a hybrid's whirlwind will screw up casters. ~3k ww dmg each hand combined with wofs is enough to tankout pretty much any caster, it only depends on your whirling technique. (I have lvl46 venom on default equip. lvl1 CM base)
Or why do you say that a hybrid ww/ls assassin is not offensive?

In my opinion a well-built ww/ls assassin can play almost exactly the same way against casters as ghosts and have traps against paladins and barbarians.


PS: @ summerfun: as I noticed you've made major equip improvements. Can I have my old 2ls 2df chaos gt back then? I lend it to you some time ago ^_^
I might want to give it to some other friend that's not as wealthy as I am to back him up a bit.
its the nature of the lower ww damage that makes the hybrid less offensive than a ghost. especially in team duel situations, a ghost is able to jump into the fray more, as they will have larger AR and damage. even in 1v1 situations, although in theory your play style will be the same, there will be certainly be a difference. i've dueled ww/ls hybrids over here with casters, and i have felt the ww damage difference, and usually it gives me the opportunity to go on the offensive with my block necro, as they can't slay me with ww in just one "session".

i understand what you're saying, but i'm still going to argue that in theory, having a meatier character and a stronger damage will allow you go be more offensive, even if you have the same strategy/style in mind. when those times come when you are forced to break out of your gameplan, like when the caster catches you off guard without traps, what you decide to do at that moment will most likely depend on which build you're using.

@summerfun: if you're using the ghost to try and be more offensive with your hybrid, i'd say just to unbind your LS hotkey for a little while, and stick purely with wof. like moritz was saying, a hybrid using only wof will be the same as a ghost in theory, and while i don't agree that it will be just as offensive, i think it will get you where you want to go.



 
@summerfun: if you're using the ghost to try and be more offensive with your hybrid, i'd say just to unbind your LS hotkey for a little while, and stick purely with wof. like moritz was saying, a hybrid using only wof will be the same as a ghost in theory, and while i don't agree that it will be just as offensive, i think it will get you where you want to go.

I thought about doing that, but i allso really wanna try playing a Ghost as i have never tryed it.
I guess ill just make a Ghost and see if i like it.

Thanks for all the advice.
 
well we were not talking about tvts. I find that hybrid assassin builds suck in tvt.
ghost is not bad for 2v2, but for 4v4 I wouldnt take it neither.


sure ww dmg is less and tankability is lower. casters will still play def because if they decide not to be def a hybrid will use ww AND ls and they are even more screwed.
as for offensive actions I'm convinced that it all comes down to technique. I have seen your videos and your whirls are really good, so you know what i am talking about. the trick at triwhirling, as we all know, is to stay in range and not get hit by projectiles.
so if you dont make a big mistake at triwhirling against casters, whirling around them once more or less will usually be not too much of a diffrence.
sorcs just get owned by lvl 4x venom already, you dont even need any traps.
windys have too bad fhr caps.
necros have hard time hitting a wwsin with bos when shes triwhirling as spirits are too slow and spears rarely hit as youre constantly moving while performing ww.

I say a hybrid is by no means a defensive character. my principle is usually 'play offensive or die' because I cannot enjoy playing def myself at all.
of course I dont telestomp everything and everyone, but I will not camp and go as off as I can without being foolish.
Summerfun just hasnt practised enough. I'm totally fine with ghosts and he should try one as they are really fun. but a hybrid is not necessarily more defensive than a ghost.
 
well we were not talking about tvts. I find that hybrid assassin builds suck in tvt.
ghost is not bad for 2v2, but for 4v4 I wouldnt take it neither.


sure ww dmg is less and tankability is lower. casters will still play def because if they decide not to be def a hybrid will use ww AND ls and they are even more screwed.
as for offensive actions I'm convinced that it all comes down to technique. I have seen your videos and your whirls are really good, so you know what i am talking about. the trick at triwhirling, as we all know, is to stay in range and not get hit by projectiles.
so if you dont make a big mistake at triwhirling against casters, whirling around them once more or less will usually be not too much of a diffrence.
sorcs just get owned by lvl 4x venom already, you dont even need any traps.
windys have too bad fhr caps.
necros have hard time hitting a wwsin with bos when shes triwhirling as spirits are too slow and spears rarely hit as youre constantly moving while performing ww.

I say a hybrid is by no means a defensive character. my principle is usually 'play offensive or die' because I cannot enjoy playing def myself at all.
of course I dont telestomp everything and everyone, but I will not camp and go as off as I can without being foolish.
Summerfun just hasnt practised enough. I'm totally fine with ghosts and he should try one as they are really fun. but a hybrid is not necessarily more defensive than a ghost.
i have only come across defensive ww/ls here on west, but i will yield to you that hybrids can indeed be played offensively, though i still don't believe that it is a strong offensive character (compared to other sin builds). when you play offensively, you are basically neglecting half of your build, which doesn't really make sense to me; a wof/ww hybrid makes much more sense in my mind.

regarding hybrids vs ghosts, you're right in that in certain situations, hybrids can be just as offensive as a ghost, and i agree with all those situations/statements that you posted up there, though i find them to be a little bit too "perfect". there will be times where the duels won't follow those examples; i find it pretty hard to believe that you can consistently whirl a necro in such a way that bs will never hit you. its possible to do that when there aren't any bs following you pre-whirl, but when you have a train coming in at an angle, following you from when you were casting wof/mb, its pretty hard to dodge those with whirl while maintaining your damage output.

when i jump in onto a necro and decide to whirl, there is a moment when i look at the screen and see how many bs are around me, to see if its worth jumping in at that time, since i know that i won't be able to dodge all of them over the course of the whirl sequence. i just find it hard to believe that for a specific individual, a hybrid will have the same "jumping threshold" as a ghost, knowing full-well the differences between the two builds.

maybe if its just me being partial to wof, but i just see ww/ls sins like the wof/ww hybrid sin's ugly cousin :azn:.



 
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You clearly never dueled me on my WW/Trapper dave :D. One of my huge disappointments upon coming to NL was to find that every hybrid I faced played the "lay a trap field and WW around in it" game plan, which just sucks(/props with the exception of Supra who was /endprops suicidally offensive against my barb). I do think that WW/LS can be really good in its own way, but it CANNOT be as offensive as the Ghost, simply because the ghost is capable of winning a bat**** nuts charge against a lot of chars whereas the WW/LS needs to bring its trap field with it to keep the damage potential there. WW/LS can indeed play a constant pressure game, but it's more slow and deliberate than the ghost, who often only needs 1 or 2 trap casts and mbs or even none at all to close with the enemy.

That said, without absorb, the WW/LS has the advantage of a higher total damage potential than the ghost (assuming they set it up right). IMO WW/LS is not WW/Wake's ugly cousin, the main reason Wake seems more effective is that everyone knows that a tgods ruins WW/LS traps, whereas fewer people carry fire stack/sorb. WW/LS does many of the things WW/Wake does just as well, and some better. GM, I'd rather have a WW/LS against a barb for example.
 
You clearly never dueled me on my WW/Trapper dave :D. One of my huge disappointments upon coming to NL was to find that every hybrid I faced played the "lay a trap field and WW around in it" game plan, which just sucks(/props with the exception of Supra who was /endprops suicidally offensive against my barb). I do think that WW/LS can be really good in its own way, but it CANNOT be as offensive as the Ghost, simply because the ghost is capable of winning a bat**** nuts charge against a lot of chars whereas the WW/LS needs to bring its trap field with it to keep the damage potential there. WW/LS can indeed play a constant pressure game, but it's more slow and deliberate than the ghost, who often only needs 1 or 2 trap casts and mbs or even none at all to close with the enemy.
yea that was what i was arguing. i was saying LS doesn't lend itself well to being an offensive stunner, to which moritz replied that he uses wof.

That said, without absorb, the WW/LS has the advantage of a higher total damage potential than the ghost (assuming they set it up right). IMO WW/LS is not WW/Wake's ugly cousin, the main reason Wake seems more effective is that everyone knows that a tgods ruins WW/LS traps, whereas fewer people carry fire stack/sorb. WW/LS does many of the things WW/Wake does just as well, and some better. GM, I'd rather have a WW/LS against a barb for example.
the reason i choose WoF over LS is because it lends itself to offensive play styles better, while not really losing its effectiveness as something to force paladins to move, and also because it requires less skill points. it just seems a much better trap to use in a hybrid.

p.s. read the earlier posts ollie. you're a little bit off this time. :azn:



 
I use both. WoF and LS, in almost every duel. Stomping paladins get screwed if you drop one under your feet (in this case its a defensive measure), and sorcs and necs (etc...) get caught by wof just like against ghosts.


One point where a gotta say that a hybrid will be defensive is when she is low on life.
Lets say I duel a necro and am left with 300 life so 1 BS/spear kills me. He has got more than half life left. I'll try to trap with LS, chip away his life and eventually try to catch him in a full stunlock if he decides to go offensive to finish me off.

So, a hybrid probably tends to become defensive or at least more defensive as usual when she is on low HP. The reason for this is imho pretty clear. Hybrids got traps which can be used as a defensive damage dealer, ghosts dont.

As long as you are not really low on life, I just personally say that ghost and hybrid can be equally offensive.
It may be true that many hybrid players play more defensive than most ghost players. They heavily rely on their traps (just like Summerfun told us) because trapping is easier than whirling (at least its safer).
I played (in chronological order) c/c trapsin, kicksin, wwsin, ww/ls/kick sin, and got to know all the basics with kicks and whirlwind before I started to play a hybrid.
If I hadnt played kicksins and wwsins before I would not play the same way as I do now. People who played trappers before, or no assassin at all will play defensive and very trap based.
I love playing offensive and I love wwing and kicking. Really often I say to my friends: ''Hey, lets make some fun duels. I need to practise my offensive play with whirls and building up stunlocks against casters and I wont use LS. I'll play like ghost.''
So I duel that necro with wof only. I make mistakes, I learn from them. I die because I whirl too long or namelock too slowly. You get a feeling how to teleport while chasing and where and when to place traps.
The next day I duel the same person with traps only, without ww at all. I try catching him in a stunlock and kill with LS. Or I use kicks but no ww.
Just for fun.
Or dueling hammerdins with wof only, incase I get fully sorbed. [etc]
Please do not see this as bragging, really please dont. But I have put very much effort in practising different facets of my assassin. Triwhirling, teleporting, trapping, namelocking. Over and over and over.
But after all, I would like to say that I have become an offensive kind of player that tries to put pressure whereever it seems not too foolish, and I'm am usually successful. And many other hybrid assassins are not offensive because they just go to pub duels and try to win.
I duel to improve and have fun, not to win. Sometimes I jump in to triwhirl and die, get to know where it's possible and senseful and where it's not.
I'm sure you, Dave, and you, Ollie, have done the same as I do (practise wise) and I respect your work (great guides) and your opinion.
But a hybrid is not forced to play defensive against any caster.

I dont neglect my build. I use LS and WoF in an offensive way. Sometimes, against certain individuals, I even like LS even more as offensive trap vs casters because it shoots faster after placing. It's all about catching them usually, interupting them from teleing with that one LS hit to get in. Stunlock is not THAT important against sorcs and necros. You just outtank them 95% of the cases.
Basically MY idea behind hybridizing a wwsin with traps is not because I find traps a necessary backup against casters (I mean damaging traps). It's more like I sacrifice some ww damage to get more defensive power against paladins and barbarians.
So basically you agree with lower ww dmg because you can outbalance this loss with technique really well. OW dmg on hybrid and ghost is the same, venom damage is (depending on build) pretty much the same (I got lvl46 venom field-casted on my hybrid), physical damage is clearly a good bunch less.
Physical damage comes in handy where you hit often (TienJe explains it in his guide pretty well. Venom in hell = 0.8 sec, ww hits every 0.16 sec. So you often just reset your poison timer as it doesnt stack.), i.e. when you triwhirl, that's most likely against casters, but those can be killed with low physical damage as well. Almost all sorcs that I know play 95% ES, making physical dmg not so viable, and many necros play high DR and got bonearmor. IMHO venom plays the major role in those duels.
Against paladins, you usually do not triwhirl for obvious reasons. In those duels I'd say that the wws are almost equal (dmg-wise), at least no significant difference, out of my experience.


This should be no comparison to point out which build is better. I find ghost and hybrid equally good, they are just very similar but still totally different.
But both got high offensive power, even if ghost might be able to go a tad more offensive.
Hybrid is in no way defensive, it all depends on the player that uses it.
 
This should be no comparison to point out which build is better. I find ghost and hybrid equally good, they are just very similar but still totally different.
But both got high offensive power, even if ghost might be able to go a tad more offensive.
Hybrid is in no way defensive, it all depends on the player that uses it.
there was really no comparison going on between the ghost/hybrid. i was merely commenting on hybrids being just as offensive as ghosts, after you pointed out to me that you play with wof when trying to be offensive. from your last response, it seems we're all in agreement, so i'll leave it at that. :prop:

have you ever tried a wof/ww hybrid with 1 in LS instead of your current build? i still feel like it would be better for the way you play.



 
No, but I had other WoF hybrids and I find wof weak against paladins and barbs.
might try it for fun someday :P


my comment was directed to my own article / post, because after reading it again I thought some ppl might take it as reasoning why hybrid is > ghost, but it wasnt meant that way. ^_^ (and hybrid is not > ghost. like I said. cannot compare those builds really.)
 
No, but I had other WoF hybrids and I find wof weak against paladins and barbs.
might try it for fun someday :P


my comment was directed to my own article / post, because after reading it again I thought some ppl might take it as reasoning why hybrid is > ghost, but it wasnt meant that way. ^_^ (and hybrid is not > ghost. like I said. cannot compare those builds really.)
an example of why dii trumps the rest of the d2 forums scattered around the intarnets. usually a thread like this would have caused both parties to explode and the thread to be closed by now. :cry:



 
hum well yes, I like that as well. I like flaming too, but there are other forums where to do that ^________^

btw you know Trae? he talked bad about you and I want to know who he actually is.
 
hum well yes, I like that as well. I like flaming too, but there are other forums where to do that ^________^

btw you know Trae? he talked bad about you and I want to know who he actually is.
haha. yea he was arguing with me about my build on another forums. we eventually had to end the argument with a duel. he made valid points, it was just one of those arguments where it was impossible to settle it with just posts. he was saying i could never kill pn necro in hell with my amount of resistances, and of course i begged to differ, so we ended up having to duel. it seemed that he liked his "tankish" builds because his ping was bad where he lived, and couldn't maneuver the same way the rest of us could. i haven't heard from him since though.

i wonder what he said. :azn: its sort of funny to hear you say he talked badly about me, because throughout the debate on those forums, my friends would chime in, and he would always qualify his statements with something like "i mean no disrespect" or something of the sort.



 
hey tienje if u didint get pm should i make a ww/wof or ghost build which do u think is more efective he has 1 in claw mastery and i maxed and we have the samd ww damage we both use gts and have almost the same gear... lol and on top he has good wof damage that kills me everytime with his ww wut should i do lol cause he kills casters alot faster than me and does better against like hammerdins or smiters than me
 
hey tienje if u didint get pm should i make a ww/wof or ghost build which do u think is more efective he has 1 in claw mastery and i maxed and we have the samd ww damage we both use gts and have almost the same gear... lol and on top he has good wof damage that kills me everytime with his ww wut should i do lol cause he kills casters alot faster than me and does better against like hammerdins or smiters than me
your inbox is full.

you should be killing casters faster than he is, since ghosts are better in that department. it just looks to me like you need to practice a bit more.



 
hey tienje if u didint get pm should i make a ww/wof or ghost build which do u think is more efective he has 1 in claw mastery and i maxed and we have the samd ww damage we both use gts and have almost the same gear... lol and on top he has good wof damage that kills me everytime with his ww wut should i do lol cause he kills casters alot faster than me and does better against like hammerdins or smiters than me

dont flatter me :D

i will say that ww/wof hybrids tend to do much better in duels against hammerdins and smiters due to the fact that we have the option to sit back and let traps slowly do the work, or use ww to damage opponents quickly, but leaves your sin more vulnerable to attack.

the reason you sin and mine probably achieve similar ww damage is the fact that i have that 1 skill point higher in venom than your build, and my chaos is close to a perfect roll.

we should just keep working on refining your build and maybe i'll show you some strategies i use against different opponents in game.

personally i think ww/wof sins are a little bit more user friendly than ghosts are, but thats just the style i play. i like having both an offensive and defensive option if i need it.

i can also show you the way i intend to remake my ww/wof hybrid so that she is more balanced between fade and wof synergies. that may be more toward the build your looking for when you build a sin. she should have the durability of a ghost, with traps that should be damaging to most players, except those with crazy high res and life.



 
So how much dmg are you doing with Wof?

947 max WoF damage on my sin with maxed WoF synergies and 3WoF on each claw. Multiply that by 5 traps shooting very fast, add in Mindblast, subtract uninteruptable attacks like Whirlwind or Charge, and you get a completely immobilized opponent whose life is falling fairly quickly.


 
947 max WoF damage on my sin with maxed WoF synergies and 3WoF on each claw. Multiply that by 5 traps shooting very fast, add in Mindblast, subtract uninteruptable attacks like Whirlwind or Charge, and you get a completely immobilized opponent whose life is falling fairly quickly.
your ugly face is what immobilizes me.

p.s. hi~!



 
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