You know that thing with the take zod out of ethereal wep in 1.09??

[squigipapa]

They also didn't remove the Eth bug for about a year and a half and yet that was a blatant cheat to use and abuse. It removed the whole concept of attack rating and defense from all pvp and pvm alike with the addition of a very common rune. It worked better than Jah which is really high up there (don't want to look up the # at the moment). Eth was a cheat to use, and therefore so is the marrowalk and the zod abuse.

To the guy saying that muling is still cheating, you're an idiot. They also say in the manuals that sorceresses are spellcasters, but people play them as melee characters. Does that make them cheaters? No. The point is simply not whether or not Blizzard says it can be done, but whether you can use your head with common sense and see if it should be done given Blizzard's rules. The Zod rune is used to give Indestructibility. Therefore, when removed, like all other gems/runes/jewels, the mod should be gone too. No, its still there, that's a bug and a bug that is abused is a cheat.

Muling is simply a game playing concept. There is no rule that it is breaking. Just preconceptions by you that all characters should be played, not made and then used for storage. You're misinterpreting "creativity" with "cheating" and I know you're using it as a counterexample to back up your fight for your sad sad addiction for whatever cheating you do. It's really annoying to talk to someone that you know knows its cheating, but says its not, and gives dicky arguments that are blatantly stupid just to be an ***. That's why I don't think I'll be reading anymore of your posts.

OK, Question: I have a valor that was zodded in .09, I used to use it on my character, now I've decided to use an enigma, I'm going to use the valor on my merc. So I decide to take the zod out, and put something useful in, as merc's don't need durability. So I take the zod out, it stays indestructible, and I put some ED/IAS Jewel in. Now remember, I'm putting this on my merc, is that cheating, or abusing a bug?
If it is not, then how can using a piece of equiptment on your merc be not cheating, but using it on yourself be cheating?

 

[Daemonaz]

OK, Question: I have a valor that was zodded in .09, I used to use it on my character, now I've decided to use an enigma, I'm going to use the valor on my merc. So I decide to take the zod out, and put something useful in, as merc's don't need durability. So I take the zod out, it stays indestructible, and I put some ED/IAS Jewel in. Now remember, I'm putting this on my merc, is that cheating, or abusing a bug?
If it is not, then how can using a piece of equiptment on your merc be not cheating, but using it on yourself be cheating?

It's pretty simple really. If you ABUSE a BUG that's cheating. In the case of your merc, you are not abusing a bug, you are just resocketing the item. You know the item won't lose durability on a merc, so moot point.

However, if you use that same armor on yourself, you know very well it wasn't intended to work like that. You know that by unsocketing the Zod, and resocketing something else, you get an indestructable armor that is in all ways better than ever was intended to be. You are abusing a bug with full knowledge, and that is cheating. Simple.

Hunting for hot DC IPs == cheating
Using Marrowwalks to get a lvl 33 synergy bonus == cheating
Unsocketing a Zod and hoping the item stays Indestructable == cheating
etc. etc.

 

[squigipapa]

It's pretty simple really. If you ABUSE a BUG that's cheating. In the case of your merc, you are not abusing a bug, you are just resocketing the item. You know the item won't lose durability on a merc, so moot point.

However, if you use that same armor on yourself, you know very well it wasn't intended to work like that. You know that by unsocketing the Zod, and resocketing something else, you get an indestructable armor that is in all ways better than ever was intended to be. You are abusing a bug with full knowledge, and that is cheating. Simple.

Hunting for hot DC IPs == cheating
Using Marrowwalks to get a lvl 33 synergy bonus == cheating
Unsocketing a Zod and hoping the item stays Indestructable == cheating
etc. etc.

Ok, good point, so basically the creation of said armor, and the use of said armor in certian ways it not cheating, however when used in another way is cheating. So basically what you're saying is it's not the item itself, but the manner in which it is used.. interesting, I never really thought of it like that.
I mean I don't have any items like this, I just think it's good to discuss these subjects every once and a while. and I like to play devil's advocate. :thanks:

 

[schlip]

Cheating = maphack bots duping and hacking in items
THis = exploiting known bug.

This == cheating yourself

 

[Daemonaz]

Ok, good point, so basically the creation of said armor, and the use of said armor in certian ways it not cheating, however when used in another way is cheating. So basically what you're saying is it's not the item itself, but the manner in which it is used.. interesting, I never really thought of it like that.
I mean I don't have any items like this, I just think it's good to discuss these subjects every once and a while. and I like to play devil's advocate. :thanks:

I know what you mean. I think that in many ways cheating deals with abusing the system with full knowledge, although ignorance is not always an excuse. Many people confuse cheating with hacking, but they are different things. For me, and I realize that this is a moral issue, anything that clearly abuses the system is cheating.

 

[andyok]

You remember a recent pvp "exploit" in 1.09, based on two items Buriza-Do Kyanon and Cleglaw's Pincers?

That was exactly the same issue as this, game mechanics that didnt work as the programmers "intended", and people exploited it as much as they could until it was patched (got fixed in 1.10 thats a very long time).

Want another example? How about bugged masteries on the barbarian? That bug was in the game for so long, and I've yet to see a barbarian build that didn't use masteries lol. Are all pre 1.10 barbarians cheaters? I dare you to say it

Also, muling and rushing is accepted by the vast majority of D2 players. However it is not how the game was "intended" to be played by the creators of the game.

In a game like this where power playing is the popular way to play, the game WILL be exploited to find the best and fastest and most powerful way to play.

Me personally I think quirks like this gives new unique touches to the game. Like the marrowalk bug, it gives a new level to character builds.

I've played this game online since 1.03, and I can honestly say that what really hurts the game is HACKS (that is hacks like drop hack, chicken hack), DUPES (this is the worst problem since this game is based on economy and finding items). Map hack is not in the league with the others but I think it is good that there are less map hackres around, mostly for the unbalance in MF with Map hack.

 

[Daemonaz]

Me personally I think quirks like this gives new unique touches to the game. Like the marrowalk bug, it gives a new level to character builds.

That is utter crap. You seriously mean to say that a Bonemancer should get a lvl 33 synergy bonus for free, without having to spend 20 points? And then still 13 points better? Uhuh... Remind me not to play with you.

I'm getting a bit sick of these cheap attempts to justify cheating. It is weak at best, and pathetic at worst.

The whole mentality can be compared to: When my friend shoots someone and gets away with it, it must be allowed so I should do it too. Come on.

 

[andyok]

That is utter crap. You seriously mean to say that a Bonemancer should get a lvl 33 synergy bonus for free, without having to spend 20 points? And then still 13 points better? Uhuh... Remind me not to play with you.

I'm getting a bit sick of these cheap attempts to justify cheating. It is weak at best, and pathetic at worst.

The whole mentality can be compared to: When my friend shoots someone and gets away with it, it must be allowed so I should do it too. Come on.

Allright so it makes it be the one and only boot for a pvp necro. Then we should hope that Blizzard patches this thing. Until they do, should we simply refrain from using the item? I've never tried them out but I don't see them as being as disruptive to balance as for example the slow% bug on Cleglaw's were.

When I started playing D2, for quite a few years ago, I was pure to core. I didn't twink, I didn't mule, I played variants and loathed the cookie cutter builds like WW-barbs. But as a player progresses through the stages of D2 he finds new ways of enjoyment. Power playing and PvP being some of them. Anyway I just think some of the more rabid anti-"cheaters" should step down from their horses and try to look from other perspectives. And I should know, since I've been on that horse myself.

 

[Daemonaz]

Allright so it makes it be the one and only boot for a pvp necro. Then we should hope that Blizzard patches this thing. Until they do, should we simply refrain from using the item? I've never tried them out but I don't see them as being as disruptive to balance as for example the slow% bug on Cleglaw's were.

When I started playing D2, for quite a few years ago, I was pure to core. I didn't twink, I didn't mule, I played variants and loathed the cookie cutter builds like WW-barbs. But as a player progresses through the stages of D2 he finds new ways of enjoyment. Power playing and PvP being some of them. Anyway I just think some of the more rabid anti-"cheaters" should step down from their horses and try to look from other perspectives. And I should know, since I've been on that horse myself.

Ah so the purist are sitting on high horses eh? I don't get you people. If you cheat you should at least be man enough to admit you are doing it, and that it is wrong.

Also, have you ever fought against a Bomemancer with marrowwalks?! Speaking of unbalanced. lvl 33 synergy, MAGIC damage, NO resistance against. And you think this is not as bad as Clegaw?

Using Marrowwalks is not cheating, using them and knowingly not putting points in Bone Prison to get the level 33 synergy bonus is cheating.

 

[squigipapa]

Ah so the purist are sitting on high horses eh? I don't get you people. If you cheat you should at least be man enough to admit you are doing it, and that it is wrong.

Also, have you ever fought against a Bomemancer with marrowwalks?! Speaking of unbalanced. lvl 33 synergy, MAGIC damage, NO resistance against. And you think this is not as bad as Clegaw?

Using Marrowwalks is not cheating, using them and knowingly not putting points in Bone Prison to get the level 33 synergy bonus is cheating.

Hi, I don't really want to but in here, but I agree that the whole marrowwalk thing is a bug. for sure, there is no way any character can ever get a synergy greater than 20, so using it gives you an unfair advantage, however I think it makes things kinda fun! I don't play necros, I've never really liked the pasty bast**ds, and I don't PvP (yet! building my first pvp now) but if I were to pvp I'd try and build a necro killer, and specificly try to kill marrowbug using necros.

As far as "Magic damage, NO resistance against." Not entirely true. Crafted safety shields can have 5-10% magic resistance, and cresent moon has magic absorbshon on it, as well there are a host of items that reduce magic damage, and assasans weapon block can block spears.
I think that the marrowbug is actually kinda cool, and I can just imagine the look on the face of the bug using necro when a sin, blocks his spear with her claws, and dragon flights in for the kill.

just my 2cents

 

[andyok]

Ah so the purist are sitting on high horses eh? I don't get you people. If you cheat you should at least be man enough to admit you are doing it, and that it is wrong.

Also, have you ever fought against a Bomemancer with marrowwalks?! Speaking of unbalanced. lvl 33 synergy, MAGIC damage, NO resistance against. And you think this is not as bad as Clegaw?

Using Marrowwalks is not cheating, using them and knowingly not putting points in Bone Prison to get the level 33 synergy bonus is cheating.

I would like to call it exploitation of a bug, not cheating. Using a barb pre-1.10 is also exploitation of a bug. Using bugged cleglaws is exploitation of a bug.

True purists even frown upon the use of "over powered" skills + item combos. They consider it cheating. It all comes down to perspectives. Sure, multishot + buriza or wf or whatever in 1.08 disrupted balance. CE killed screens of monsters early d2. WW did not rely on IAS etc. Every single patch since release has had extremely powerful builds that wooped *** on other builds.

Now IF, Blizzard decide to state that "Exploiting a known bug is to be considered as CHEATING and can get you BANNED" then we can talk cheating. If we payed 5$ a month for D2 this might happen but as it is now, in our dreams..

Serious PvP'ers, however, set up their own rules for balance's sake and play private games right? Beacause there is no such thing as PvP balance in D2, you have to create that balance yourself with rules (no max absorb, no marrowalk, no max DR etc).