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Wow, really weak hammers
- Thread starter flamingchen
- Start date
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
I hear you guys saying 125fcr is better. I know that most of these things are based on personal preference. But 125fcr is better based on what? (Besides PvP of course, we all know why 125fcr is better for PvP)
As I mentioned previously a 75fcr build generally does more damage per second, has more life, has better def, has higher resists. All of this is achievable because fewer sacrifices need to be made to make 75fcr break point. My pally does 15k with 75fcr, he would do like 10k with 125fcr, I know that hitting that next break point won't make me spam hammers 50% faster to make up for the lost damage.
Again, I am not at all a pally expert, but when I am doing the math, 75fcr is coming out ahead of 125fcr for PvM everytime. So can someone who uses 125fcr for PvM please explain (with numbers and examples not just "it's better") why they prefer 125fcr?
I hear you guys saying 125fcr is better. I know that most of these things are based on personal preference. But 125fcr is better based on what? (Besides PvP of course, we all know why 125fcr is better for PvP)
As I mentioned previously a 75fcr build generally does more damage per second, has more life, has better def, has higher resists. All of this is achievable because fewer sacrifices need to be made to make 75fcr break point. My pally does 15k with 75fcr, he would do like 10k with 125fcr, I know that hitting that next break point won't make me spam hammers 50% faster to make up for the lost damage.
Again, I am not at all a pally expert, but when I am doing the math, 75fcr is coming out ahead of 125fcr for PvM everytime. So can someone who uses 125fcr for PvM please explain (with numbers and examples not just "it's better") why they prefer 125fcr?
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
Speed. We gotta have speed, man! The 10 frame casting animation is slower than really old people with no legs walking through a field of peanut butter... It just...ew.
About the damage, theoretically you're right about the damage thing.
But really, when you're mashing out 10,000 unresisted PvM damage every 9 frames and not even counting other monsters you're hitting with the same hammer, does it really matter if you 1 shot them with 10k, 12k, 15k, or 17k damage?
Not trying to hijack the thread but; (By the way, I am no hdin expert by any means)
I have read alot about the 125fcr vs 75fcr and which is better. I see where 125fcr would be better for tele and duels, so you can get that cast off before you get hit.
But wouldn't a 15k hammer at 75fcr be better than a 10k hammer at 125fcr? 125fcr would have to be 50% faster to break even with 75fcr.
Not to mention 75fcr builds usually have higher resists/defense/life than 125fcr builds, do to not making sacrifices for extra fcr gear.
So it seams to me 75fcr has more damage per second, and higher survivability, so outside of PvP, is there really a reason to hit the 125fcr bp?
Speed. We gotta have speed, man! The 10 frame casting animation is slower than really old people with no legs walking through a field of peanut butter... It just...ew.
About the damage, theoretically you're right about the damage thing.
But really, when you're mashing out 10,000 unresisted PvM damage every 9 frames and not even counting other monsters you're hitting with the same hammer, does it really matter if you 1 shot them with 10k, 12k, 15k, or 17k damage?
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
Again, we all know 9 frames is faster than 10...
I am just trying to figure out why you would want to give up 50% damage, have lower life, and less defense to be able to cast a hammer one twentieth of a second faster.
I can see one teeny-tiny advantage at the cost of three or four other bigger ones. Maybe I am just stupid, but I just am not getting it.
Again, we all know 9 frames is faster than 10...
I am just trying to figure out why you would want to give up 50% damage, have lower life, and less defense to be able to cast a hammer one twentieth of a second faster.
I can see one teeny-tiny advantage at the cost of three or four other bigger ones. Maybe I am just stupid, but I just am not getting it.
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
How do you drop to 10k at 125 fcr? :shocked: Just use a spirit instead of HoZ and a crafted pala amu or circlet or fcr ring to reach the next bp.
I hear you guys saying 125fcr is better. I know that most of these things are based on personal preference. But 125fcr is better based on what? (Besides PvP of course, we all know why 125fcr is better for PvP)
As I mentioned previously a 75fcr build generally does more damage per second, has more life, has better def, has higher resists. All of this is achievable because fewer sacrifices need to be made to make 75fcr break point. My pally does 15k with 75fcr, he would do like 10k with 125fcr, I know that hitting that next break point won't make me spam hammers 50% faster to make up for the lost damage.
Again, I am not at all a pally expert, but when I am doing the math, 75fcr is coming out ahead of 125fcr for PvM everytime. So can someone who uses 125fcr for PvM please explain (with numbers and examples not just "it's better") why they prefer 125fcr?
How do you drop to 10k at 125 fcr? :shocked: Just use a spirit instead of HoZ and a crafted pala amu or circlet or fcr ring to reach the next bp.
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
Still not answering the question...
Because of the +skills I have to drop with the gear that I have.
So far, no one in support of 125fcr has been able to give a logical reason for achieving that last break point in PvM other than it feels faster?
Any logical answers?
Still not answering the question...
How do you drop to 10k at 125 fcr? Just use a spirit instead of HoZ and a crafted pala amu or circlet or fcr ring to reach the next bp.
Because of the +skills I have to drop with the gear that I have.
So far, no one in support of 125fcr has been able to give a logical reason for achieving that last break point in PvM other than it feels faster?
I am just trying to figure out why you would want to give up 50% damage, have lower life, and less defense to be able to cast a hammer one twentieth of a second faster.
I can see one teeny-tiny advantage at the cost of three or four other bigger ones. Maybe I am just stupid, but I just am not getting it.
Any logical answers?
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
You have a denser hammerfield, faster teleport and better fhr at a little bit less hammer damage ( as HoZ has +2 combat skills ). Survivability is absolutely not an issue for a 125 fcr hammerdin, unless it's badly build :wink3: Based on my experience it will run a 8 player chaos much faster than a 75 fcr HoZ hammerdin.
Just use what you feel like using, 75 fcr works fine in pvm too. :smiley: Guess someone will post the numbers soon.
Still not answering the question...
You have a denser hammerfield, faster teleport and better fhr at a little bit less hammer damage ( as HoZ has +2 combat skills ). Survivability is absolutely not an issue for a 125 fcr hammerdin, unless it's badly build :wink3: Based on my experience it will run a 8 player chaos much faster than a 75 fcr HoZ hammerdin.
Just use what you feel like using, 75 fcr works fine in pvm too. :smiley: Guess someone will post the numbers soon.
AnimeCraze
New member
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
Taking the "standard" hammerdin gear and plugging the +skills into a skill calc: (I wish I have all of these gear)
Fixed Gear:
Shako
Enigma
HotO
2x SoJ
Arach
Random boots
Trang gloves
Anni
Torch
9x pcombs
With HoZ & Mara's
80 FCR, +18 all skills, +11 combat
Damage = 15921 - 16026
With Spirit & +2 pally FCR amulet
125+ FCR, +18 all skills, +9 combat
Damage = 15167 - 15273
With Spirit & +1 pally FCR amulet (or Mara's & FCR ring, but Spirit must be 35 FCR)
125+ FCR, +17 all skills, +9 combat
Damage = 14520 - 14624
The damage difference between the 1st and last is approx 10%, which is covered by the increase in FCR. You get about the same amount of damage, but faster teleporting, better hammer field, etc. The middle one is clearly superior, if you can find that good amulet.
The problem is you are making the wrong assumption. With proper gear the difference won't be 50%, and with your calculations the damage per second should come out roughly the same.Still not answering the question...
Because of the +skills I have to drop with the gear that I have.
So far, no one in support of 125fcr has been able to give a logical reason for achieving that last break point in PvM other than it feels faster?
Any logical answers?
Taking the "standard" hammerdin gear and plugging the +skills into a skill calc: (I wish I have all of these gear)
Fixed Gear:
Shako
Enigma
HotO
2x SoJ
Arach
Random boots
Trang gloves
Anni
Torch
9x pcombs
With HoZ & Mara's
80 FCR, +18 all skills, +11 combat
Damage = 15921 - 16026
With Spirit & +2 pally FCR amulet
125+ FCR, +18 all skills, +9 combat
Damage = 15167 - 15273
With Spirit & +1 pally FCR amulet (or Mara's & FCR ring, but Spirit must be 35 FCR)
125+ FCR, +17 all skills, +9 combat
Damage = 14520 - 14624
The damage difference between the 1st and last is approx 10%, which is covered by the increase in FCR. You get about the same amount of damage, but faster teleporting, better hammer field, etc. The middle one is clearly superior, if you can find that good amulet.
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Re: Wow, really weak hammers
I think enough people have posted to this effect in this thread now. Why not give it a go?
Because you're not losing anything significant, and you're gaining faster tele and a nicer hammer field. A quick thought experiment: I have a pala that deals a 10 million damage per hammer, and you have one who deals 100 million per hammer (I know damage loops over at 100k or whatever... this is hypothetical). Which do you choose? It's a moot point, the differential is irrelevant. In practice well-equipped hammerdins are almost never lacking in damage, so beyond a certain point it makes more sense to start focussing on other things, most notably the FCR breakpoint.So far, no one in support of 125fcr has been able to give a logical reason for achieving that last break point in PvM other than it feels faster?
I think enough people have posted to this effect in this thread now. Why not give it a go?
Sal-vation
New member
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
I've been debating this myself. I want 125fcr, but how much more HP will you lose having to max block on a spirit shield? That extra frame does do alot though, and spirit will help your FHR out as well.
I've been debating this myself. I want 125fcr, but how much more HP will you lose having to max block on a spirit shield? That extra frame does do alot though, and spirit will help your FHR out as well.
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
I see what your saying, with the most expensive rares/crafted items in the game I won't lose anything, and I agree.
But cmon, how many people have a godly 2skills/20fcr/all resist/life/2os circlet, with same stats on ammy, and a perfect roll spirit on a 45 resist all pally elite shield.
You are right though, if I had that stuff I would only lose 1 all skill point and 2 combat skill points, it would be worth hitting the 125 break point. But with more regular expensive items (not uber expensive) you are sacrificing alot to get there. But now I do understand where the people who have those items are coming from.
I see what your saying, with the most expensive rares/crafted items in the game I won't lose anything, and I agree.
But cmon, how many people have a godly 2skills/20fcr/all resist/life/2os circlet, with same stats on ammy, and a perfect roll spirit on a 45 resist all pally elite shield.
You are right though, if I had that stuff I would only lose 1 all skill point and 2 combat skill points, it would be worth hitting the 125 break point. But with more regular expensive items (not uber expensive) you are sacrificing alot to get there. But now I do understand where the people who have those items are coming from.
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AnimeCraze
New member
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
You are misinterpreting the data.
I said with the most expensive stuff you are gaining things. You do not lose 1 all skills. Also notice that you only need 1 of godly circlet or godly ammy (or even not so godly ones would do, as long as it has the 2 vital mods: +2 pcomb and +20 FCR).
Notice that for the setup losing 1 all skill and 2 combat, I also bracketed an FCR ring option (it can be magic for all I care), and that is not all that expensive (compared to the rest of the items, like ptorch anc pcombs). Once you have a base shield for spirit, you can always reroll yourself.
Similar data holds with less pcombs.
You are misinterpreting the data.
I said with the most expensive stuff you are gaining things. You do not lose 1 all skills. Also notice that you only need 1 of godly circlet or godly ammy (or even not so godly ones would do, as long as it has the 2 vital mods: +2 pcomb and +20 FCR).
Notice that for the setup losing 1 all skill and 2 combat, I also bracketed an FCR ring option (it can be magic for all I care), and that is not all that expensive (compared to the rest of the items, like ptorch anc pcombs). Once you have a base shield for spirit, you can always reroll yourself.
Similar data holds with less pcombs.
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
I have no problems with 7k hammers and 125fcr solo'ing baal in a 8 player game.
My build has:
39dr
86fhr
cbf
125fcr
90fr
85lr
75pr
75cr
lwpb in stash for hybrid purposes
my most expensive gears are just my berber coa and my 45 spirit st.
and this is pvm. No problems key finding, ubering, rushing, cs'ing, mf'ing (though the mf is only 400~)
I like 125fcr is because i can kill serpents faster. Serpents can be deadly is because they are fast and their charge hurts, and can burn your mana. Not only does 125 works good against serpents, it also work good versus a group of unique frenzy lords with amp and mana burn.
Given 15k and 75fcr, i rather choose 125 with 9k.
I have no problems with 7k hammers and 125fcr solo'ing baal in a 8 player game.
My build has:
39dr
86fhr
cbf
125fcr
90fr
85lr
75pr
75cr
lwpb in stash for hybrid purposes
my most expensive gears are just my berber coa and my 45 spirit st.
and this is pvm. No problems key finding, ubering, rushing, cs'ing, mf'ing (though the mf is only 400~)
I like 125fcr is because i can kill serpents faster. Serpents can be deadly is because they are fast and their charge hurts, and can burn your mana. Not only does 125 works good against serpents, it also work good versus a group of unique frenzy lords with amp and mana burn.
Given 15k and 75fcr, i rather choose 125 with 9k.
flamingchen
New member
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
^^^^ also, are you counting conc when doing it?
^^^^ also, are you counting conc when doing it?
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
I have to agree with NumtyDoo. With great gear 125Fcr clearly wins.
But with common gear, 75% might do just as well, or even better
It all depends on what gear you have.
My own hammer runs 125% fcr with max block and DR.
@ 12-14k hammer dmg in baalruns
and a little less in pvp.
I have to agree with NumtyDoo. With great gear 125Fcr clearly wins.
But with common gear, 75% might do just as well, or even better
It all depends on what gear you have.
My own hammer runs 125% fcr with max block and DR.
@ 12-14k hammer dmg in baalruns
and a little less in pvp.
AnimeCraze
New member
Re: Wow, really weak hammers
IMO, if you are not rich enough to afford enigma, 125 FCR wins hands down. (vipermagi grants another 30 FCR)
If you are rich enough for enigma but not for arach, HotO, and 35 spirit, but have enigma, 75 FCR wins.
If you are rich enough for afford all that, than 125 does just as well as 75.
If you are rich enough to afford godly amulet or circlet, 125 FCR wins.
My data from above should make it self explainatory.
IMO, if you are not rich enough to afford enigma, 125 FCR wins hands down. (vipermagi grants another 30 FCR)
If you are rich enough for enigma but not for arach, HotO, and 35 spirit, but have enigma, 75 FCR wins.
If you are rich enough for afford all that, than 125 does just as well as 75.
If you are rich enough to afford godly amulet or circlet, 125 FCR wins.
My data from above should make it self explainatory.
