Wow....i'm so impressed by pk's

[Tai.1]

probably be a more accurate portrayal if we blared abrasive 80's thrash metal over loud speakers to scare off the deer.

if they stay, they deserve to be thinned from the herd, darwin anyone?

cheers
-tai

 

[NightShade]

...How did you know I have Slayer playing right now?

 

[~Foxfire~]

Now I understand that people play Hardcore for intensely different reasons, as stated in this thread. My girlfriend loves the PvM aspects, and doesn't like some of my antics when playing the game. The fact is, I play this game for the sheer adrenaline aspects. There are FAR BETTER GAMES OUT RIGHT NOW. D2Hardcore is neither supported nor changing much. The only thing that changes about the game, since Blizz has given up on it, are the hacks themselves. This game is evolving with every hack that is made, and forces those playing to adjust accordingly. How you choose to adjust is completely up to you. Go back to softcore, that's adjusting. Playing solo, adjusting as well. Taking a bitter stance on the hostiling at all, yet another adjustment.

I've adjusted in a different way. I've embraced it. *****ing about something that isnt' going away would be a waste of breath if it weren't for the chance to get something off your chest. It's off your chest now, this is your chance to move on. Here's your chance to adjust. Wishing the game was like it was x amount of time ago, for nostalgic purposes, isn't going to bring back the character that was just stolen from you because of bnet/hacks/children or your f**k-ups.

If there weren't pks, I wouldn't play. Eventually, monsters just don't have a chance. Cookie cutter builds are prominent because HC is a big game of natural selection. Those builds that work stick around and are repeated, those that don't become extinct. TPPK is exactly the same way, it exists because it works. I'm proud to say I haven't been TPPK'd since I've learned who/what works in TPPK. As soon as you know what to look for, you cannot be TPPK'd. HC is a game of paranoia, that's not going away. You worry for your characters, no matter the enemy.

There is clearly a difference between legitimate PK and TPPK. You have even more warning with legitimate PK, and even a chance to kill the person attacking. There is nothing more vindicating than turning around and killing the child who thought they could kill you. I have built duelers who didn't look like duelers for that specific purpose. I have extracted far more ears from tppkers through legit means than those same tppkers have taken from me. I've devoted my time on Hardcore to fighting against those very hacks, it gives me a sense of excitement to fight against someone who isn't directed by blizzard's poor excuse for AI.

Everyone has the right to ***** about what they hate, but the argument does tend to get very tired when stated multiple times. I started one of these same threads when I started HCL, *****ing about how much more TPPK and hacks than there were on HCNL where I had recently come from. Within 4 months, I'm now the most feared dueler on realm, and am even feared by those who use hacks to duel/pk/play. They're beatable, and they're beatable without hacks. I've spent my entire HCL career without the use of a single hack.

I have hit on far too many subjects to really come to one conclusion, but the fact remains that pk exists, bnet has embraced every aspect of it in legit form. TPPK exists as well, it's going to exist so long as it works. So beat it. Step to the side of the iceblast headed your way. Don't fight a character who hostiles you, chances are he KNOWS you have no chance. Complaining about the issues doesn't change the fact that they exist, especially when the issues are NOT GOING TO CHANGE. You cannot convince everyone. You cannot force blizz to do anything about it. Move on. Play WoW. Play softcore. Chances are, you won't. Because HC offers you a different kind of play, the risk of dying with repurcussions unmatched by any other mainstream game on the internet. Weigh your advantages and disadvantages in the game. If the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, get out. Time to move on. If not, continue playing, and adjust to your surroundings.

 

[PawnOfChaos]

I see this thread has grown a bit since I last paid any attention to it.

While I admit not reading anything past the first page, I can see the length and draw one conclusion...with one solution...



DROP IT!!!!!

Seriously, this argument is OLD and those who are dead-set in whatever belief they have will remain dead-set in that very same belief no matter all the talking in the world.

Know one thing though, most pkers (including myself) start out frowning upon such behavior and loving the game to death with their pvm l33tness... Many of those who oppose pking now may have a different view a few months from now (excepting STINGER, there is a man set in his ways).

Jeff

 

[Matt]

The problem I have with the so called 'legit' PK is that they are so rare that for all intents and purposes, they do not exist. And many times their claims here on the forums do not match what happens in reality. I was very close to many of the notorious PKs from this forum when I was with GAT. And I was swayed by their arguments of; it's just a different play style, and I only hunt higher levels, and I always give fair warning. But when I'd see some of the exact same people in public games, they were doing the exact opposite. Some of the big names in PKing were killing lower levels, and jumping waypoints, and doing whatever they could think of to get that 'ear'. Hell, I even had one of them kill my Nekkid Sorc who was 5 levels lower than them. When I told them who I was, after the fact, you should have heard the excuses fly. So please, save your breath with the whole 'legit' PK thing. I've seen it all from the inside and I know better. Like I said originally, there is practically no difference between a 'legit' PK and a TPPK.

Damn it, I was trying to stay out of another pk debate. Oh well.

I think that most pks (well, us legit ones...) WILL kill a low level if they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Heres my example... Lets say I decide to go pking with a level 24 bonesnap charger. I will pk in baal run games, anything lower just is not fun for me. People will see it coming, and I dont really find it all that fun hunting a group composed of people mostly lower levels than me. Now, say I go in and hostile the baal run (mostly with people in their 30's and 40's, maybe one 50 and 1 28 or something), and begin my run down to the throne, to find the party.

Now, if the first person I come across is basically my level, and I know I'll easily kill them, I'm not going to pass them by, simply because it wont be a challenge to kill them. I dont think any pker would claim that they would pass them by. What we claim is that we dont go hunting for these people. In other words, we hostile groups containing mostly people who are "good targets", higher levels. However, if the lower levels in the party are in the way, I'll happily take their ear.

Now, jumping waypoints... what do you mean? If you're talking, waiting at waypoints for people to take them while hostile, I'm guilty (though I dont see a problem with it... if I'm hostile, theres no "safe grounds" other than town.. cant get mad because you keep playing when I'm hostile, and simply expect me to not attack...

However, if you're talking that thing to bypass the 10 second delay... I obviously cant speak for every legit pker, but I for one have never done that, I dont conscider that legit pking...

Now, to claim that theres no difference between legit pkers and tppkers, and to say legit pkers dont exist... thats basically ignorant. You can say you dont like legit pking for what it is, thats your opinion. But saying "pkers who claim to be legit pkers are liars, or legit pkers dont exist" is ridiculous, and frankly, it makes me want to disregard most everything you have to say.

There are a lot of maphackers on battle.net, who PvM, and a lot of people who claim not to use it, who do. Is it fair/correct for me to say "every pvmer uses maphack, and any pvmer who says he doesnt is a liar"? Of course not. If I did, you would basically tell yourself "this guy has no idea what hes talking about" and therefore assume that everything I had said was just as accurate as that.

I guess to me, an argument is as valid as its least accurate statement, if that makes any sense...

Well, so much for me staying out of this.. I made it 6 pages in a row, but not 7. Oh well

-Matt

 

[Tai.1]

alas and alack, now matt's going...

i pk/duel whenever im online, thats what i enjoy about this game. i am as guilty as any of the pkers i know when it comes to targetting whoever shows up as opposed to the highest levels only.

when i made my lvl 12 disposadin (my first pvp on euro) originally he was hunting in sewers/arcane, barely above my level, but had to get back in the swing of things, within 5 or 6 ears, i was hunting trav runs, mephy and cs. i can tell you from experience that half of my easr after i stopped doing sewer/arcnae pk were from those below lvl 18 who were just leeching in a dangerous place (ie. in my game). it seems that in lots of instances the killers who dont immediately chicken will leave, knowing that they can always get back to where they were, leechers in my experience have a tendency to try and wait you out, as they cant get back to where they are as easily, this means that most of the time my pally would come into cs or durance and someone would be waiting, itd be an easy kill, not because i was targetting them, but because once i got down there i had to choose from what was available.

my current pvp chars, lvl 18 thrower barb and lvl 18 jabber (have pretty much stopped playing, so didnt go high) both have their share of ears below their level, but have never been into a sewer or arcane game unless i saw a pk i recognized in the list and was going to try and chase them down.

i have ears on them ranging from 12 to 35, im not gonna claim most of them are 30+'s because theyre not, most are low 20's who thought they're snap charger would rock my zon, followed closely by the low lvl duelers (12, 13, 15, 16, 18) who had only me who was also below 30 in my low lvl duel games.

i used to be cute and tell everyone on joining "hi, my name's tai, and i'll be your pk for today." but i got kinda bored of typing it every game, when half the time people would scream "pk pk pk" whenever i joined. i admit that i have ears lower than my pvp chars levels, i honestly assume everyone does, no matter how high their horse, but i have never cheated wp timers, in fact i dont even know how to, and i have never tppked. the assessment that there is no difference between pks and tppks is in my humble opinion a fallacy.

cheers
-tai

 

[Valar-Wrath]

Oh c'mon guys. He had stopped posting for atleast a day! Had to go and ruin it...

Oh well, even though I should take my own advice, if this gets interesting I just might join in.

Me a hypocrite? Nah... :lol:

 

[SonOfRah]

Hey Rah, long time no see. Hope life has been treating you well. Bored with GW yet?

Never bored with GW. The PvP in that game is simply increadible. Think counter-strike with magic and swords, but more emphasis on team work. The PvE isn't bad either.

If I do play d2, its with a mod I've made that lets me do what I want quickly (eg: item generation, exp etc). However even that gets boring to me since I've "been there, done that".

I disagree with the above statement. The root problem is that D2/LoD is primarily a PvM game with a (rather poor) PvP element slapped on top. And the PvP element was given the trump card with the hostile implementation. So the weakest part of the game drives the whole Realm community. And people wonder why the Realms are generally such an unpleasant place. A disfunctional design leads to a disfunctional world.

Perhaps. In all honesty the implementation of pvp in diablo2 wasn't too bad, but the various imbalances between the various classes (opps nearly said professions lol - too much GW hehe) and items makes it very awkward and skewed in favor of specific things. Sure it could of been made better, but thats like saying my old 286 could of been made to peform just as well as my pentium 4 and run Half-Life 2. This game was one the leading edge when it came out, and its natural that things that could of been different were discovered. You can't predict what players will do - but you can learn from past mistakes/issues/problems and make a better game.

My comment for the problem being with the prevailant use of hacks and cheats I think is correct. These cheats allow people to easily exploit the pvp system, where in all honesty more than half of these people probably couldn't kill a fly.

The pk/anti-pk debate aside, look at the broad picture as why pking is so bad and prevailant.

1) the hostile mechanism and other game mechanics can be exploited, although they usually require some sort of timing/skill etc on the player side of things.
2) hacks remove all "skill" involved and puts the user in control of a little red button - the one that has "nuke" written on it.
3) widespread use of hacks becomes common, and Blizzard fails to provide sufficient anti-cheat measures. Account banning is pointless and is not a sufficient deterent. If they were to permenantly ban your cd-key and make it so that you cannot access any of your accounts, plus ban reguarly - would you still do it? (if you cheated that is).

softcore people want to play hardcore and get the red name, but most cannot survive. Some person comes up with the idea of chickenhack and makes it. Pvp players get annoyed because people are cheating death and so tppk and auto-aim hacks are invented. The easy access and lack of deterents cause a rapid rise in the use of these hacks. People get tppk because everyone has chicken. People die to tppk hacks because "they can". People get chickenhack because "everyone has tppk".

See a patern here?

pking was not the problem it is today before chicken/tppk/aim and all the rest of the cheats were created. The most you had to worry about peviously was getting jumped at a waypoint.

******
Here is a really good read for game design and cheats - http://arena.net/news/articles/mikearticle040802.html

Mistakes in game design and implementation can always creep in and enable unforeseen types of cheating. At the end of the day, game developers need a lot of experience with network gaming so that they can foresee and avoid these problems, and they need to be able to quickly react to and fix problems that crop up after the game is released.

Although the article does not mention it, you do need a good deterent to stop people from cheating in a game. I'll use GuildWars as an example

Its a next generation game, and as such uses a client/server artitecture and the client is the bare minimum. This severly limits cheats and hacks since they only deal with what the client can see. Even speed hacks don't exist. The one that "exists" is simply client side and as such is more harmfull to the player than the game.

This limits cheating at the moment to mostly in-game exploits, however they get found and fixed fast - and the penalties for exploiting is very severe.

You can get tempory and/or permenantly banned for exploits/cheating/botting. This is bad because you only get 1 account for each copy of guildwars you have, and the unlocking mechansm for pvp is account only. Do you really want to cheat in this game now? The penalty is severe and the rewards are small.

 

[AzaZaz]

I pk'd a lvl 9 yesterday with a 38.


I was on a 38 blizz sorc in a duel game trying to get a 43 druid to fight me as well as a 37 barb, and was repeatedly chickening a 34 druid with my 35 pally at the same time (2 keys).

There was this lvl 6 guy lvling in the duel game. He got to lvl 9 and then decided he'd watch some duels by the front door. Then he decided he'd run outside and circle the duelers as they dueled.

Then he asked for some free items.

Then he went outside again.

Then he dropped his ear and quit the game.



Am I a mean SOB? Wouldn't argue it for a minute

Was the lvl 9 pvp? Not one bit

Was the lvl 9 in a duel game? yes he was



The way I see it, if you enter a duel game, its open season, I don't care what lvl you are you should be looking over your shoulder at all times. Of course I'm not saying two lvl 20's dueling should watch out for a 50 while they're dueling they should be left alone. But if you're wondering around outside interfering with a duel, should keep your eyes open.


Also killed a lvl 18 chicken yesterday. He was chirping me, i chickened him, he came back chirped some more. I asked him "why would i duel you if you cant die, its lose lose" of course that made me a nub....so i humoured him one more time, lucky for me it was a big hit


theres just something so satisfying about taking ears from ppl who don't belong in duel games.

 

[BongoFury]

IMO you are being a bit hypocritical. You tell me not to do something but then you, yourself go and do it.

Do you understand the meaning of the word hypocricy? Speaking out against censorship is not a form of censorship itself.

Obviously if you had an argument with someone before, having the same argument is not going to change anything. Why would it?

I'm not the same person I was last year, last month or last week. I've had additional experiences and gained additional knowledge, and (hopefully) I've grown through them. So while the arguments may be the same, the participants have changed. And in the interim I have had a chance to think about what others have said, highlighted by relevant experiences. So I have a different, fuller understanding of the subject. Learning is not static, it is a dynamic process and time is a necessary ingredient. Time to grasp the concepts, time to relate the information to your experiences, and time to develop more than a superficial understanding. Maybe you don't like to think, maybe you don't want to grow. But other people may, and you should respect their differences. Don't try to censor posts/threads you don't like, just ignore them. If something truely does get out of hand, that's the job of our moderator, ZF, to decide. So please respect him and don't try to usurp his role.

 

[BongoFury]

Damn it, I was trying to stay out of another pk debate. Oh well.

Well I'm glad you didn't, because even though we disagree, I appreciate your opinions. They usually give me something to think over.

I think that most pks (well, us legit ones...) WILL kill a low level if they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
[Snip Story]

This was not what I was talking about at all. The incidents I was refering to was a case where a 20ish 'legit' PK entered a starter game where I was soloing a high level character leveling a merc. The LPK announced that they were there to PK. But instead of coming after me, the higher level character. They proceeded to hunt down the L9-15 characters. I saw this happen twice by 'famous' LPKs from this forum (no names as they are long gone from here and cannot defend themselves). So my point is that the CLAIMS of the LPKs here is different than their ACTIONS.

But I thank you for your story. Because you proved my point that LPKs will gladly set aside their 'honor' in the lust for ears. It would be easy for you to scan the player screen to identify the lower levels while waiting for the timer to expire. Then to avoid those players when you start 'hunting'. But by your own admission, the ear is more important than your honor. Just like a TPPK.

Now, jumping waypoints...
[Snip]
However, if you're talking that thing to bypass the 10 second delay... I obviously cant speak for every legit pker, but I for one have never done that, I dont conscider that legit pking...

I agree completely, 'jumping' WPs is NOT LPK. However some folks here who claim to be LPKs have no problem with it:

I kill innocent pvm'ers but by jumping them at a waypoint.

And the failure of other LPKs here to speak out against this practice brings all LPKs down to this level. Y'all claim to be honorable, but the reality is quite different. And without the veneer of honor, you're little different than the TPPKs.

Now, to claim that theres no difference between legit pkers and tppkers, and to say legit pkers dont exist... thats basically ignorant. You can say you dont like legit pking for what it is, thats your opinion. But saying "pkers who claim to be legit pkers are liars, or legit pkers dont exist" is ridiculous, and frankly, it makes me want to disregard most everything you have to say.

I've played this game since the day it was released. And in that time I have encountered about a dozen LPKs while playing. The majority of those were folks I knew from GAT. So discounting those folks, it comes out to about 1 LPK per year. Given the thousands of other players I cross paths with in a year, this means LPKs are statistically insignificant, approaching zero. There may be a number of LPKs here, but in the overall Realms population they are so rare as to not warrant special consideration.

 

[Matt]

Well I'm glad you didn't, because even though we disagree, I appreciate your opinions. They usually give me something to think over.

Haha, thank you, I must say I agree... though we disagree, your anti-pk arguments are among the most convincing I've ever seen, actually having substance to them, not "omg pkz suk dudez"

This was not what I was talking about at all. The incidents I was refering to was a case where a 20ish 'legit' PK entered a starter game where I was soloing a high level character leveling a merc. The LPK announced that they were there to PK. But instead of coming after me, the higher level character. They proceeded to hunt down the L9-15 characters. I saw this happen twice by 'famous' LPKs from this forum (no names as they are long gone from here and cannot defend themselves). So my point is that the CLAIMS of the LPKs here is different than their ACTIONS.

I would agree that that is not the best of pking manners. While I dont do that, I'll still defend it to some extent. I feel its not nearly as bad as tppking, or any other sort of cheating. My argument here would be that while its annoying, you certianly DO have time to escape, and that assuming a pk is not going to hunt you for any reason, is asking to be killed in my humble opinion. If someone hostiles you, its simply not smart to say "oh, hes a higher level, I'll just ignore it.

I guess to me, thats not a big deal... I mean, yeah, its pretty annoying, but its nothing to get worked up over, a pk killing a lower level. To me, there are 2 main types of legit pkers, pkers who pk for the thrill of the hunt, and pkers who try to challenge themselves and get high level, hard to get ears.
Of course, there is overlap too... I personally lean towards the second, but I do enjoy pking anything I have to chase down, a good pk chase is great fun.

Now, a decked out level 18 charger chasing down a level 35 pvm sorceress is really not a lot different than that charger chasing a level 14 pvm barb, they're both gonna die in 1 hit. The only real difference is level, not actually much in terms of how hard it is to kill them once you find them.

But I thank you for your story. Because you proved my point that LPKs will gladly set aside their 'honor' in the lust for ears. It would be easy for you to scan the player screen to identify the lower levels while waiting for the timer to expire. Then to avoid those players when you start 'hunting'. But by your own admission, the ear is more important than your honor. Just like a TPPK.

Like I said before, pking can be exciting because its a higher level, harder to kill ear, or because of the hunt for the ear. Now, in the story I gave, I just hostiled the party, and had to run to the throne as fast as possible, following dead monster trails, and then get to the party and kill them, before they get away. Now, for one thing, if I see a red X on my screen, I'm not going to stop and check or try and remember, is that a lower level or not? I just chased down and found the party, and I'm sure as hell gonna attack, not stop and think about which member of the party I'm attacking. (and yes, it works both ways... I've had a LOT of close calls when I attack the party, only to find one of the very high levels, sometimes a rusher, with them, waiting to kill me.
Now, besides the fact that I'm not going to stop and put a name with a level in the heat of battle, my other point is that most people would conscider it a perfectly fine ear for a level 18 to kill a level 35, but the reality of it is that the 35 pvm and a 15 pvm, really have about the same chance of survival, both ARE going to die. When pking, the thrill is not completly about killing a hard to kill character, its chasing them down and getting your ear. After I chase em, I dont really mind who I get. What it boils down to, is that yeah, I will kill any party member foolish enough to stay around, but the level difference is generally not all it is cracked up to be. Keep in mind, I DO always hunt in appropriate games, and chase the appropriate party. If some low level is leeching his way with them, and wont leave, so be it. But I do chase groups which are generally composed of "acceptable" level characters.

I agree completely, 'jumping' WPs is NOT LPK. However some folks here who claim to be LPKs have no problem with it:
And the failure of other LPKs here to speak out against this practice brings all LPKs down to this level. Y'all claim to be honorable, but the reality is quite different. And without the veneer of honor, you're little different than the TPPKs.

So because I dont activly speak out against tppking or waypoint jumping, I might as well do it? Not buying that one, sorry. I dont stick up for them when the topic comes up, see for yourself, I've been as against them as anyone else here. I think the same can be said for any of us legit pkers here. Now, you I'm sure speak out against botting when it comes up, but are you "little different" from a botter, because you dont speak out against it all the time? Of course not.

I've played this game since the day it was released. And in that time I have encountered about a dozen LPKs while playing. The majority of those were folks I knew from GAT. So discounting those folks, it comes out to about 1 LPK per year. Given the thousands of other players I cross paths with in a year, this means LPKs are statistically insignificant, approaching zero. There may be a number of LPKs here, but in the overall Realms population they are so rare as to not warrant special consideration.

I've played in the same game as exactly zero pindlebots in my d2 career. Does that mean they dont exist? I wish. Besides the obvious fact that you admit a lot of us to exist on this forum, and this debate is taking place on the forum, so its a little silly so say "legit pks dont exist" in this particular debate.... Yeah, anyways. There are many many many kinds of players which are rare, rare enough you might not see very many at ALL, legit pks are one of them.
However, we're not debating whether it exists, it does. I'm telling you that from experience. You can tell me legit pkers dont exist, but I would have to simply say "you're wrong" because I've seen them, I am a legit pker, I have many friends who are legit pkers, and theres a lot of them on this forum. So, the debate is not whether they exist, they do. I agree that Legit pkers are not plentiful, I never claimed they were.

The debate at hand is the difference between TPPKers, and Legit pkers, completly a different issue from how many of each there are. (I'd be the first to tell you there are a hell of a lot more tppkers... dont get me wrong) So my point is, when the debate is the difference between tppks and legit pks, the legit pks surely DO "warrent special conscideration".

-Matt

 

[AzaZaz]

I saw this happen twice by 'famous' LPKs from this forum

I'm sorry, but twice...by one person...that warrants a generalization of the entire population? nope. Quick to judge.

But by your own admission, the ear is more important than your honor. Just like a TPPK.

You have to be careful with this, the ear is the objective, at no time did he suggest that killing someone lower then him is dishonorable. The fact is you are there to kill another player, honorable or not this player is not going to be happy with you. Only the truly open-minded player will realize an honorable pk and respect him for it, and how many of these open-minded pvm players do you think there are? I'd say about the same amount as your imaginary statistical insignificant number of LPKs. I say imaginary because the fact is its your opinion and its heresay and theres no facts. Show me a survey taken by blizzard, or by anyone for that matter, that unbiasly shows the amount of LPK's vs Non and that every other type of player, then we can start saying that such and such is statistically insignificant, and such and such doesnt exist, because until then, its a matter of opinion, its not statistics. And as far as statistics go, "did you know that a football player who eats chicken on thursday is twice as likely to catch 5 passes on sunday then if he eats fish on saturday?" Statistics are bias, and easily skewed, lets not make them worse by suggesting from one persons personally experience/opinion that its fact.

I agree completely, 'jumping' WPs is NOT LPK

I disagree. Jumping WPs IS legit. It however is not honorable. But if you're not breaking any rules then you're not breaking any rules, sadly thats the truth. If you are exploiting a bug to jump the WP b4 the alotted 10 seconds, then yes its breaking the rules and it would no longer be legit. But if i wait in act 2 by the waypoint, I wait the necessary 10 seconds, then i run up the wp and try and nail the closest person in arcane, why on earth would that not be legit?

And I'll vouch for Nightshade in that's what he was referring to as jumping waypoints, and that he wouldnt exploit them, just didnt take the time to explain every detail of his statement as he shouldn't have to.

The majority of those were folks I knew from GAT. So discounting those folks, it comes out to about 1 LPK per year. Given the thousands of other players I cross paths with in a year, this means LPKs are statistically insignificant, approaching zero

You commented on how Matt made a statement supporting one of your arguements. Here is one of yours supporting mine. You admit to only knowing legit pkers from GAT. This is not to say you didnt know alot of people in your time, or that you're not experience, however I know many many legit pks outside of Gat. We can talk about oldschool BtK members, who are also greatly involved in the forums, or we can talk about misfits prominant in the marketplace and then on forums. And we can go out and talk about a number of other guilds but the point is if you only surround yourself in one area of the game you aren't going to broaden your perspective.

The fact is there were and still are legit pvp players, but if you expect someone to be illigitamate (sp?) before you get to know them, you're going into it bias.

From my personal experience I knew alot of members of the GAT community who did not give me good impressions on their personality pvm or pvp and I didnt respect as honorable or legit players. GAT east was very broad and very young at times.

Y'all claim to be honorable, but the reality is quite different. And without the veneer of honor, you're little different than the TPPKs.

Alot of your arguments are very broad generalizations from a small amount of experiences. A GAT pker turns tppk, does not mean that all ppl looking for an ear will do anything for an ear. Matt admitted that he's killed lower lvls. I've done the same in the thread, I even explained why. Does that make me a dishonorable player? I wouldn't think so. I can be a mean cuss, but I go into a game looking to pk, I dont trash talk, I dont pick games loaded with ppl lower then my lvl, I make an attempt to pk only ppl at my char lvl or higher, if i happen to run across someone in the party who is lower then me on my way to a high lvl, i'm not gonna run by him, the fact is i'm there to kill, does he get a free pass because he hasnt leveled as quickly? no, he better quit, run, or he will lose his ear. Does that mean i'm not honorable? Does he need fair warning? His warning was the hostile button. Unless he's standing by a door (naive to start) then he has at least 10 seconds to realize who's hostiling him, and adjust accordingly. If he fails to do this he failed because of his own ignorance or inexperience and either way I'm not gonna stop to ask "do you know that i'm hostile to you and i'm gonna pk you?" be realistic.

At no time in Matt's statement did he say that killing lower lvls is taking ears by any means necessary. The problem with this debate is that the "con" side is trying to argue a black and white scenerio, when the world (and the diablo world alike) is not simply cut and dry.

Confusing honor and being legit is inappropriate. Of course a character who is not legit is a player without honor. that goes without saying. Do I need to only pk lvl 40's with my 16 in order to maintain my honor? I've done it...I'd do it anytime i can. If I go to pk someone and they stand up and fight back and lose, I am very very respectful to them. I don't gloat when i take an ear. you'll never hear "nya nya nya noob i pwnt joo" coming from my mouth. If I lose I lose with grace. I fought a 59 pally with my 63 pally last night and got absolutely destroyed. I congratulated him and thanked him for the duel, then we dueled again his 34 vs my 35 and I won, thanked him once again and congratulated him on his successful builds. Is that not honorable?

I enter an arcane game with the lvls 19, 20 14, 21, 25 with my 16. I announce I'm a pk, they laugh, I hostile. I travel through arcane, see the 19, 20 and 14...I go in for the attack, if the 19 and 20 quit and the 14 stands there...should I be expected to leave him alone? Well maybe that would be tremendiously polite of me, but the fact is i'm there to take ears, not make friends. Does that mean i'm dishonorable. I don't think so.

Lets not bring honor into this, because to me thats as insulting as name calling.

 

[BongoFury]

Never bored with GW. The PvP in that game is simply increadible.

Yeah, GW is primarily a PvP game, so that's why I've passed on it. That's just not my cup of tea.

But can you imagine playing a PvP game like GW, and suddenly being forced to play PvM? You wouldn't be happy. And that's how I feel about D2/LoD.

Perhaps. In all honesty the implementation of pvp in diablo2 wasn't too bad, but the various imbalances between the various classes and items makes it very awkward and skewed in favor of specific things.

Balance is the heart of any game, it's what makes or breaks it. And IMO, it's impossible in this genre of game to balance it for PvM and PvP at the same time. One or the other must take precidence. D2 is primarily a PvM game so it is balanced accordingly. GW is primarily PvP so that's where it's balance lies. But both games are significantly weaker in the nondominant sphere (going on word of mouth for GW). For D2/LoD, PvM is the major thrust and where it is balanced, but PvP has been given the trump card. This is a fundamental flaw.

My comment for the problem being with the prevailant use of hacks and cheats I think is correct. These cheats allow people to easily exploit the pvp system, where in all honesty more than half of these people probably couldn't kill a fly.
[Snip]
pking was not the problem it is today before chicken/tppk/aim and all the rest of the cheats were created.

I think you and a lot of other folks here place far too much blame on cheating for the problems with D2/LoD. Granted, it is a problem, but this is mainly due to Blizzard not supporting the game adequately. Time and resources from Blizzard could solve many of the game's ills. But IMO, the fundamental problem with the Realms is the design fault I discussed above, a primarily PvM game dominated by PvP. Look back to long ago, when the game was newer and the hacks less prevalent. Then, as now, the vast majority of questing games are starter games, Act 1 games. This is because for at least the first half of A1 you don't have to worry about PKs. So people are willing to play with strangers and work together in a co-op manner. Yet the further into the game you get, the greater the likelyhood of PK interference, and the more players have to lose. So co-op questing games get rarer and rarer. Which is absolutely mind boggling to me. Blizzard designs a PvM game, yet makes it so the further into the game you get, the less likely you are to find questing games. A fundamental design flaw dooms the Realms, where the whole point is to play with others.

Although the article does not mention it, you do need a good deterent to stop people from cheating in a game.

A good, basic article about game designs and how cheating affects them. Nothing Earth shattering there. But you've hit the nail on the head, there have to be consequences for in game actions. Weather it's cheating or other anti-social behavior. And this is another of my major gripes with D2/LoD as it relates to PKing. There are no consequences within the game world for PKs. They can do whatever they want without fear. This is a balance problem. Again, D2 is primarily a PvM game, balanced for PvM. With a slipshod PvP element tacked on top, with no PvP balance. Yet PvP is king. A mind bogglingly dumb design.

 

[AzaZaz]

you've hit the nail on the head, there have to be consequences for in game actions. Weather it's cheating or other anti-social behavior.

I don't see how PK'ing is anti-social. I had so much, SO much fun with my guild members PKK'ing before maphack, as a team effort. And since i've entered the world of pvp and pk alike, its not that i'm being anti-social, I have just switched groups of who i socialize with. I don't go out into pvm games and find new ppl to add to my F L, but I play co operatively with other people that might be pk'ing.

Lets not forget that at some time every PK needs to do some PVM work.

I mean people on this forum know my fiance who doesnt post here from duel games and pk games alike...how is that anti-social.

Again, a big generalization I'm sure there are those little 14 yr old ppl pissed off at their teachers and wanting some revenge, but lets not make it linear

 

[PhatTrumpet]

I'm sure Bongo was more referring to the act of PKing itself as being anti-social, not the comraderie you hold with fellow PKers or how friendly you are when you do your PvMing. There's a distinction made between friend and foe here. You are knowingly interrupting someone else's enjoyment of the game as they see it; you admitted yourself that your PK actions are far from friendly, hence anti-social.

At least that's my take on what he said.

 

[SonOfRah]

Yeah, GW is primarily a PvP game, so that's why I've passed on it. That's just not my cup of tea.

Actually its not. You are not the first to assume that and won't be the last. Guildwars does not revolve around pvp any more than what Diablo 2 does. I will say that it is literally one of the very few games out there that does pvp extremely well.

Look at the broad picture. Its emphasis is primarily on combat and how you as a player can deal with it. Every single skill in the game that a player can use, you will find a monster using it in game - the end result is that the game is mostly balanced for any form of combat. Granted some imbalances will probably occur, but due to the strategy counter-strategy aspect of the game, it isn't as likely.

Kinda sounds strage for me to say this, considering I'm a member of one of the most recognised top pvp guilds out there lol. But, it is one of the biggest things I've argued both in the tester commnuity and the public community.

But can you imagine playing a PvP game like GW, and suddenly being forced to play PvM? You wouldn't be happy. And that's how I feel about D2/LoD.

Can't see the relevance there. Apart from your "pvp only game" misconception, GW does have its pve requirements for pvp, however I don't particually mind that at all. At worst, it has a little too much grind to it late game.

Really, do you like meph runs or grinding for exp? Probably not. However you, like most other pve players will like the journey as your character developes. Its exactly the same deal with GuildWars. The pve is good, graphics are amazing considering what can run it, and like any game various parts become boring once you've done it for the 100th time.

There is far more pve content than there is pvp, and there is far more pve players than there is pvp players.

Balance is the heart of any game, it's what makes or breaks it. And IMO, it's impossible in this genre of game to balance it for PvM and PvP at the same time. One or the other must take precidence. D2 is primarily a PvM game so it is balanced accordingly. GW is primarily PvP so that's where it's balance lies. But both games are significantly weaker in the nondominant sphere (going on word of mouth for GW). For D2/LoD, PvM is the major thrust and where it is balanced, but PvP has been given the trump card. This is a fundamental flaw.

See above comments.

I think you and a lot of other folks here place far too much blame on cheating for the problems with D2/LoD. Granted, it is a problem, but this is mainly due to Blizzard not supporting the game adequately. Time and resources from Blizzard could solve many of the game's ills. But IMO, the fundamental problem with the Realms is the design fault I discussed above, a primarily PvM game dominated by PvP. Look back to long ago, when the game was newer and the hacks less prevalent. Then, as now, the vast majority of questing games are starter games, Act 1 games. This is because for at least the first half of A1 you don't have to worry about PKs. So people are willing to play with strangers and work together in a co-op manner. Yet the further into the game you get, the greater the likelyhood of PK interference, and the more players have to lose. So co-op questing games get rarer and rarer. Which is absolutely mind boggling to me.

Let me ask you a question then.

When a pk attacks, what is the most prevailant aspect of those pks?

Effectively all of them are cheating. Might of been you, or might of been someone else - but I'm certain someone stated "for all extent and purposes, legit pks do not exist".

Now look at the cheats and what do you see - they all exploit the pvp system, and they all remove any skill involved in doing so. Thus people use this cheats "because they can". Now every kid on the block has a tppk because the cheats allow them to do so very easily. And since its increadibly easy to do and there is no penalty for doing so.....they do it.

Do you know how easy it is to kill a tppk and continue leveling with a pve character? It is increadibly easy. Most don't have any inkling of skill at all, and you can very well turn that to your advantage. The only problem is that chickenhack causing people to instantly exit on hostile/low life/holstile character in range is more detrimental to the game than someone who is tppking.

A tppk in baal runs can be avoided, and can be killed or chicken exited in less than 2 seconds if they try to come down the stairs.

What scares me the most when I pked in baal run games, was that if people were to jump me at a stair entrance when I came down. If they did that, 90% of the time I would of died.

Questing games are rare, simply because most players take the easy way out - rush through, and leech exp in "runs".

Now take away those cheats and see how many pks run around - there is a few, but they are easily avoided and dealt with.

Blizzard designs a PvM game, yet makes it so the further into the game you get, the less likely you are to find questing games. A fundamental design flaw dooms the Realms, where the whole point is to play with others.

No matter how bad the implementation, or any design flaws it is - no game is pve if it has pvp elements incorporated into it. Granted, D2 is somewhat similar to WoW in the fact that they significantly cater towards the pve crowd more than the pvp, but it isn't strickly pve. And the pvp mechanics thus determines how the game is.

If pking was unintended, they would of changed it within 8 patches. But no, its here to stay and as such should be accepted as part of the game. Really, if it is so detrimental and anti-social to the game do you really think it would of remained the way it is now? The only reason it is so detrimental and "anti-social" (as you put it) is because of the rampant useage of cheats.

A good, basic article about game designs and how cheating affects them. Nothing Earth shattering there. But you've hit the nail on the head, there have to be consequences for in game actions. Weather it's cheating or other anti-social behavior. And this is another of my major gripes with D2/LoD as it relates to PKing. There are no consequences within the game world for PKs. They can do whatever they want without fear. This is a balance problem. Again, D2 is primarily a PvM game, balanced for PvM. With a slipshod PvP element tacked on top, with no PvP balance. Yet PvP is king. A mind bogglingly dumb design.

I've made more friends by pking people than by joining people in random questing/leveling games. The most friends I've made in pve came through GAT. Really, I found public pve games more anti-social than anything else. Is pking anti-social behavior? I don't think so.

 

[Herald of Doom]

Am I the only one who's a bit confused about how the term "legit' is used here? The way bongofury uses it, it seems to me he thinks it means honourable. But in Diablo2, legit means not using 3rd party programs. Legitimate has several meanings, the main two being "following the law" and "doing things like the standard". A normal pk is both, because he doesn't brake any laws and pk'ing is so widespread it has become the standard. You can be both legit and honourable or dishonourable. Oh, and besides, if a legit pk'er hostiles, why not quit? You have at least ten seconds, and it's not like you'll miss out on something when you quit a game in diablo

PS: Yeah, I was bored. I read the entire thread. Sue me !

HoD