The Vanquisher, defined - a guide to smite/hammer paladins <

[Quietus]

You didn't optimize your hammer damage. You should always calculate what skill allocation that gives the highest hammer damage possible. It's NOT 20 conc, 20 hammers, 20 vigor, 20 shield, blah blah 1 point wonders, and rest in aim. Anyway, I'd suggest:

20 hammers
20 aim
20 conc
20 vigor
1 fana
1 freeze
1+ med
1 redemption
rest in either conv (team duels), meditation, res light, or holy shield

Use a grief PB and you'll have 6fps smite. I had 75%fcr, 75%block, 50%dr too and could easily switch to 125fcr. I know it's basically a hammerdin but I don't see anything particular with the build described by the guide author. It's basically a hammerdin to me, too.

First, try not giving false information please. A grief phase blade on it's own doesn't give 6 fps smite. It gives 7, and requires you to add ias on gear to have a total of 65% before you get 6. Unless you use that one point in fanat, which reduces the damage you do by a great deal.

Essentially, yes, the Vanquisher is similar to a hammerdin in many ways - it is, after all, using hammers! And I am aware that there may be one or two points difference in optimal hammer damage, but unfortunately I don't have the knowledge to sit down and calculate how to optimize it. However, I have run this build, in several variations, and have never had a problem with it - and besides that, when we're talking tens of thousands of damage, being anal about an extra hundred points is rather foolish, when it's simpler to not have to keep doing calculations every level.

Your build is basically a hammerdin with a grief in hand. Mine is, admittedly, similar in ways - except that I don't suggest things like points in conviction (Which is a great way to waste five skill points for even a single point into conviction), or holy freeze - if you want holy freeze, then grab a doom, and use that one point fanatacism. Your damage will suffer, but you'll be slowing things well enough. Also, the only way I can see you reaching 75% FCR with 50% DR is by using a stormsheild, which as you may note I didn't suggest for this build - the strength requirement is quite high, and the only helpful thing it offers is 35% DR. And in order to get 75% fast cast with 50% DR, your skills and resists WILL suffer - I just don't see it as being a viable option. I can agree to disagree on what gear sacrifices are worthwhile. However, the only real point I see you bringing up here is that I didn't optimize my damage - which, as I pointed out, there was a reason behind.

Perhaps when I get a bit more time and learn some Java, I'll write a program to calculate the optimization - that would be easier for me, than writing an equation, and it would allow people who aren't very good at math to just plug in some numbers and go. Until then, my skill recommendations stand, unless someone can provide me with the equation for optimal damage hammers - and if anyone can, I would greatly appreciate it.

::Edit:: One thing just occurred to me, and that's that you may have used CoA to get that 50% DR. Something else I don't recommend, for the same reasons I gave as Stormsheild.

 

[Pravda]

I know what a vanquisher is all about. When 1.10 came out I tried many ways of putting together something viable for PvP (i.e. 6fps smite and 125fcr on same switch) but honestly, there isn't one. The best you can do is to put 1 in fana and use a grief PB when dueling zons. I actually wrote a vanquisher guide for this forum like 2 years ago (not the paladin I described above) but asked them to remove the link because I realized that it was inferior to a regular hammerdin in almost every way. Some things:

False information? Look, I put 1 in fana. That with grief gives 6fps smite automatically. Learn your stuff before accusing me of false information thx.

A few hundreds damage doesn't matter in PvM which I know your guide is mostly about but it does in PvP so call it "foolish" if you want. I think it's not.

Yes, mine is a hammerdin with a grief for killing zons and trappers but I didn't see that much difference with your build either. You also use holy freeze to slow down zons (doom doesn't cut it if you want 6fps smite too -_-)

If you ever team dueled you know that things like conviction is useful when you are in a party with sorcs or trappers. It's definitely not a waste.

Yes, I used COA, the most underrated helm for a hammerdin. I mean how can 30res, 2 sockets, +1 skills possibly be bad. Yes I know it has a steep str req but if you good good gear you don't need to put any points in strength at all (I never did).

 

[Quietus]

I know what a vanquisher is all about. When 1.10 came out I tried many ways of putting together something viable for PvP (i.e. 6fps smite and 125fcr on same switch) but honestly, there isn't one. The best you can do is to put 1 in fana and use a grief PB when dueling zons. I actually wrote a vanquisher guide for this forum like 2 years ago (not the paladin I described above) but asked them to remove the link because I realized that it was inferior to a regular hammerdin in almost every way. Some things:

False information? Look, I put 1 in fana. That with grief gives 6fps smite automatically. Learn your stuff before accusing me of false information thx.

A few hundreds damage doesn't matter in PvM which I know your guide is mostly about but it does in PvP so call it "foolish" if you want. I think it's not.

Yes, mine is a hammerdin with a grief for killing zons and trappers but I didn't see that much difference with your build either. You also use holy freeze to slow down zons (doom doesn't cut it if you want 6fps smite too -_-)

If you ever team dueled you know that things like conviction is useful when you are in a party with sorcs or trappers. It's definitely not a waste.

Yes, I used COA, the most underrated helm for a hammerdin. I mean how can 30res, 2 sockets, +1 skills possibly be bad. Yes I know it has a steep str req but if you good good gear you don't need to put any points in strength at all (I never did).

As far as the false information goes, it's either false, or bad advice - because if you can afford the gear to make using grief viable, frankly, you can afford to get a 6 frame smite without fanatacism. And considering the absolutely enormous cut in damage you'd have to take, it's simply not worthwhile. 65% ias can be made up with a pair of gloves and an ias jewel very easily - or two ias jewels, if that's more your style.

COA underrated? The costs for this thing is enormous, and while yes, it's mods are very nice, it's simply too heavy to consider wearing unless you can afford the very very top end in gear. What more could you ask for? Maybe something reasonable to put on my head, so it doesn't feel like it'll get pulled off as soon as I take a step? If you can afford a good CoA, then unless you've ebayed, you're going to know enough about the game to take this guide as being exactly that - a guide. And in that case, you can take the advice I give and suit it to whatever pimped out gear you want.

No, a doom won't have much chance of hitting 6 frames. However, between the ias on Doom and 20 ias from gloves, you can hit 7 frames, which is fine when you have a Holy Freeze aura going - if you make your doom in a military pick/crowbill/war spike. Not a terrible choice, actually. Maybe I'll include that in an update.

And I'd like to point out that "a few hundred" damage isn't going to change anything in PvP. I'd be amazed if you could squeeze out 400 more damage by optimizing, and frankly, when we're talking 66 pvp damage, that's NOT going to make a difference. I still have yet to see you point me to anything that would help show how to optimize something like that, btw.

The difference between your build and mine is in the identity. Yours is a hammerdin with grief. Mine actually uses smite and charge on a regular basis. In fact, in PvP, I use hammers for little more than freaking people out, because they try desperately to avoid my hammerfields - and run straight into my sword and sheild. Yes, hammers are an amazing weapon, but this build isn't about teaching a hammerdin how to hit things with a sheild. It's about teaching a paladin how to be versatile in every encounter it faces. I don't just slap on grief to go after zons and trappers - I use mine constantly, and school people with it judiciously. There's more to it than just slapping a grief on and calling yourself a vanquisher, just like there's more to being a liberator than making the occasional charge.

 

[Pravda]

6fps smite without fana is often not very good in pvp since you have to sacrifice a lot to get 65ias. 1 in fana is almost always better and the damage loss is definitely worth sacrificing for the versatility fanaticism gives. Especially if you're doing ubers when cb is what matters. And doom with 7fps is a horrible choice...

I never claimed mine was a vanquisher with equal smite/charge/hammers. I still call it a hammerdin. Hammers is usually the best attack so it's natural for it to be more hammers. Rarely is smite better in pvp (zons maybe) and that's why 1 in fana is sufficient. The damage loss isn't very significant since 2-4 hits takes them out anyway. You have to realize that just because you use smite and hammers equally 24/7 it isn't better.

Trust me, the damage loss will make a difference. Even if you don't think it does, at least point out that the vanquisher you describe would have had higher hammer damage with optimized the skill points.

I could give you a link for a synergy calculator but I don't want to. You need to learn how to take criticism and suggestions the right way. I know cause I've written 3 guides myself for this board. I've also noticed, most people who criticise my posts are people who are new to this game and people who are poor and think the gear I suggest is way out of a normal player's reach (i.e. they have no idea what's possible to do with good gear so they theorycraft instead). After having read your guide I'm pretty sure you fit both categories. I'm out of this discussion since it isn't going to lead anywhere anyway. Have fun with your build.

For anyone else who want a link to a synergy calculator to optmize hammers, just PM me. I'll check this board maybe once every two months so it might take a while for me to reply.

 

[Quietus]

6fps smite without fana is often not very good in pvp since you have to sacrifice a lot to get 65ias. 1 in fana is almost always better and the damage loss is definitely worth sacrificing for the versatility fanaticism gives. Especially if you're doing ubers when cb is what matters. And doom with 7fps is a horrible choice...

I never claimed mine was a vanquisher with equal smite/charge/hammers. I still call it a hammerdin. Hammers is usually the best attack so it's natural for it to be more hammers. Rarely is smite better in pvp (zons maybe) and that's why 1 in fana is sufficient. The damage loss isn't very significant since 2-4 hits takes them out anyway. You have to realize that just because you use smite and hammers equally 24/7 it isn't better.

Trust me, the damage loss will make a difference. Even if you don't think it does, at least point out that the vanquisher you describe would have had higher hammer damage with optimized the skill points.

I could give you a link for a synergy calculator but I don't want to. You need to learn how to take criticism and suggestions the right way. I know cause I've written 3 guides myself for this board. I've also noticed, most people who criticise my posts are people who are new to this game and people who are poor and think the gear I suggest is way out of a normal player's reach (i.e. they have no idea what's possible to do with good gear so they theorycraft instead). After having read your guide I'm pretty sure you fit both categories. I'm out of this discussion since it isn't going to lead anywhere anyway. Have fun with your build.

For anyone else who want a link to a synergy calculator to optmize hammers, just PM me. I'll check this board maybe once every two months so it might take a while for me to reply.

That's really an incredibly mature post, for someone questioning my maturity.

Requoted :

I could give you a link for a synergy calculator but I don't want to.

Impressive indeed. I can take criticism just fine, it's just that you're throwing tripe at me and suggesting that my build is inferior to yours, and giving reasons why - which, when I explain why my method is at least the equal of yours, even when considering your criticism, you simply suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about, which I assure you, is entirely incorrect. You are correct in only one thing, and that is your implication that you believe I have never owned a CoA. Indeed, I haven't, because I find the strength requirement of it prohibitive, as I've mentioned at least two other times in this thread. In order to make up for the investment, be it stat point or material wealth, you need to get the best CoA you can find, and those cost an incredibly huge amount, no matter WHERE you go. Even if I were to get good enough gear to properly outfit my Vanq on ladder, it would take me months to collect enough wealth to buy a good CoA, due to the fact that I only play a few hours a week, for the last few weeks. CoA is simply a poor choice, in my opinion.

I'm certain that if I went to the pvp boards and asked if it would make a huge difference between 10,000 damage hammers and 10,500 damage hammers, the answer would be a unanimous "no". You're already killing in 2-3 hits. That tiny shred of extra damage isn't going to matter.

Now, if anyone cares to input some actual constructive criticism, I'm more than willing to discuss this build with friendly, mature players. I've managed to note a few things that I should add to a revision of this guide, and if anyone else has something to add, I'm sure there are other improvements to be made.

 

[AnimeCraze]

You don't need a damage calculator.

Damage = base * (1 + synergy bonus) * (1 + aura bonus / 2)

Assuming BH is automatically maxed, we can calculate everything else by setting one of the variable to be dependent on the other. Then, use calculus and calculate the derivative, and see where the maximum is. If you want a more general result, you can take partial derivatives, and use advanced calculus tools, but that's probably not necessary. This has been done in the sorc forum for many times now, because of FM and synergy for a meteorb sorc.

@Pravda: What you have is not optimizing damage of hammers (giving fixed allocation of points in it), but a 1 point smite hammerdin. They are basically 2 different builds.

 

[Quietus]

You don't need a damage calculator.

Damage = base * (1 + synergy bonus) * (1 + aura bonus / 2)

Assuming BH is automatically maxed, we can calculate everything else by setting one of the variable to be dependent on the other. Then, use calculus and calculate the derivative, and see where the maximum is. If you want a more general result, you can take partial derivatives, and use advanced calculus tools, but that's probably not necessary. This has been done in the sorc forum for many times now, because of FM and synergy for a meteorb sorc.

@Pravda: What you have is not optimizing damage of hammers (giving fixed allocation of points in it), but a 1 point smite hammerdin. They are basically 2 different builds.

The problem with that is that the only experience I have with derivatives is a very brief (and I mean it was mentioned in passing once) mention of them in my Play Mechanics class. So for all intents and purposes, I've never used calculus before, and wouldn't have the first idea where to start. And at the moment I am both working and going to school full time, so I have precious little time to learn calculus on my own.

 

[the boss]

@Pravda: What you have is not optimizing damage of hammers (giving fixed allocation of points in it), but a 1 point smite hammerdin. They are basically 2 different builds.

Well, most hammerdins have charge and Holyshield as part of their hotkey skills, so basically you can say 95% of the hammerdins pvp have 1 point in smite anyways

 

[Quietus]

Well, most hammerdins have charge and Holyshield as part of their hotkey skills, so basically you can say 95% of the hammerdins pvp have 1 point in smite anyways

Yes, most do. However, as AnimeCraze pointed out more fluently than I did, there's a difference between a one point smite hammerdin, and a Vanquisher.

 

[the boss]

I wish you the best of luck - I can imagine V/T is more expensive than a Vanq, simply because of the FoH stick you might want to get. Your gear loks great, and I actually love the idea of casting with CtA/Spirit, for the extra cast rate - it's only 1 less skill point to your combat skills, but one more for your concentration, and faster. Definately something I'll have to try and test, once I get a good Vanq going on ladder.

Thanks, imagine making a Cta in a War scepter with 3+Concentration, 3+Blessed Hammer and 3+Holyshield, oh my god, this can be almost as expensive as a FoH stick too

 

[Quietus]

Thanks, imagine making a Cta in a War scepter with 3+Concentration, 3+Blessed Hammer and 3+Holyshield, oh my god, this can be almost as expensive as a FoH stick too

Ewww...

Yeah... that's the sort of thing I'd be willing to keep rerolling till I got a 6 BO.

But holy crap, that's insane. I want... *Drools, then comes to his senses and writes this down*

 

[the boss]

Hey, 34 ias grief pb, how much ias is needed for this to reach break point? 15%ias jewel in shako and laying of hands? I probably won't have enough fcr unless i switch trang's belt to arach...

I'll have 30 FCR hammers and 6fps smite...is this what i am suppose to go for?
on switch i'll have 55 FCR with spirit which reaches the 48 FCR breakpoint.

The thing is, if I have to get 6fps smite, then i'll have to sacrifice DR for it, or FCR for it...I think I should get a pally circlet, and then it'll be like...

Pally circlet with skills, FCR and resists/stats socketed with Ber
Enigma
HoZ with 15%ias jewel
Grief pb
Dungos
Laying of Hands
waterwalk
Mara/bk/FCR ring

I've been also thinking about Andy's helm and then socket that with a Ber.
Laying of hands will cover the missed fire resists.
HoZ switched to socket with Ber again
Dungo switch to Arach for FCR
and rest stay the same....
that will be 6fps smite and 30 FCR all with grief pb setup.

 

[Quietus]

Hey, 34 ias grief pb, how much ias is needed for this to reach break point? 15%ias jewel in shako and laying of hands? I probably won't have enough fcr unless i switch trang's belt to arach...

I'll have 30 FCR hammers and 6fps smite...is this what i am suppose to go for?
on switch i'll have 55 FCR with spirit which reaches the 48 FCR breakpoint.

The thing is, if I have to get 6fps smite, then i'll have to sacrifice DR for it, or FCR for it...I think I should get a pally circlet, and then it'll be like...

Pally circlet with skills, FCR and resists/stats socketed with Ber
Enigma
HoZ with 15%ias jewel
Grief pb
Dungos
Laying of Hands
waterwalk
Mara/bk/FCR ring

I've been also thinking about Andy's helm and then socket that with a Ber.
Laying of hands will cover the missed fire resists.
HoZ switched to socket with Ber again
Dungo switch to Arach for FCR
and rest stay the same....
that will be 6fps smite and 30 FCR all with grief pb setup.

Hmmm... 34% ias... I'd have to find a more specific calculator for that, I'm not 100% sure. It MIGHT hit the 6 frame breakpoint with 30 ias, but I'm not entirely certain. Either way, you have at least 35% more with either of your setups there, so that's not a problem. Either of those setups would work out well for you - the main difference would be slightly less opportunity to stack fire resist with your first, and slightly less DR for the second. Your damage would stay similar, with the only difference being the +1 skill from arach on the second switch.

If you're going for PvP, then I'd probably go with the first setup. Normally I wouldn't say that, but the difference is (if you can pick up a 15% dungo), approximately a ber rune for a skill. Your hammers will be fine without that 1 skill, and it won't add a game breaking amount to your smite, either. For PvM.. I'd probably go with the first setup for that as well, but switch out dungo for arach.. but that's just me, and like I said, I don't pay much attention to dr.

However, I should point out that you have NO cannot be frozen on that character. My recommendation would be to drop the BK ring in favor of a ravenfrost. The skill you can't really make up for, but the dex on the raven will actually more than make up for the life lost no the bk. Even a 15 dex raven saves you 15 points, which is 45 life - you'd have to get to level 90 for a bk ring to give you that much, and then that wouldn't be affected by BO, while points you invest in vitality are.

 

[junlee]

Screenshot

This is maxed hammer synergies, and near max holy sheild, using :
Grief phase
Guilla's face
Chains of Honor
HoZ
Dracul's grasp
Trang belt
Gore riders
Mara's
2x Bk rings
Anni, ptorch, 1 pcomb and 1 offensive gc - an investment, but not so unbelievably incredibly expensive as to make it inaccessible.

hm you have no extra ias on so your not at 6fps smite with that gear? or am i wrong

 

[Quietus]

hm you have no extra ias on so your not at 6fps smite with that gear? or am i wrong

I run 7 fps with my vanquisher, that's all I need for pvm and uber tristram. I could replace mara's with a highlord, still have stack, and put a 15% ias jewel in the Guilla for 6 frames, if I wanted, sacrifice one skill, but gain 80% deadly strike on my charge. That's more a pvp thing though.

 

[junlee]

I run 7 fps with my vanquisher, that's all I need for pvm and uber tristram. I could replace mara's with a highlord, still have stack, and put a 15% ias jewel in the Guilla for 6 frames, if I wanted, sacrifice one skill, but gain 80% deadly strike on my charge. That's more a pvp thing though.

oh ok im probly gonna try to make your build..i have a nice mageplate enigma 1 def from perf roll on it but i think i should trade it for a coh correct? the only other expensive thing i need then is grief...i hope dracs arent that expensive.
oh and lifetap still works with smite right

 

[Evrae Altana]

oh and lifetap still works with smite right

Yes, it does.

 

[Quietus]

oh ok im probly gonna try to make your build..i have a nice mageplate enigma 1 def from perf roll on it but i think i should trade it for a coh correct? the only other expensive thing i need then is grief...i hope dracs arent that expensive.
oh and lifetap still works with smite right

It'd be easier for me to give advice if you listed all the gear that you plan to use. Enigma is a great peice of armor, and I do use it on one of my builds in hammer mode (The build I listed above actually has two modes - in one, I go hybrid smite/hammer with the listed stats. With a gear switch, I give up my smite for cast rate and more hammer damage, and play as a pure hammerdin).

What I would recommend, if you want to think it out yourself, is this :

75 resist all in hell
2k life minimum after bo
75% block
1-1.5k damage smite (With grief, you don't have to worry about smite damage)
7k or higher hammers
7 frame smite minimum

As noted, a grief phase will get you 7 frame smite and take care of all your smite damage problems. Outside of that, this outline is fairly simple, in my opinion, and not difficult to manage with reasonable gear. Of course, if you'd like to list your gear, I can critique how well it would work for your Vanquisher and give suggestions if needed.

And yes, as Junlee noted, life tap works with smite. It's the only form of leech that does.

 

[HeavAngel]

Added to the GuideThread!
Thanks! :thumbsup:

 

[Quietus]

Added to the GuideThread!
Thanks! :thumbsup:

Awesome - I have some time coming up soon that I won't be so swamped with school, so I may end up updating the strategy section, MAYBE. Depends on a few different things, including how bad my lag is - can't really consider it a proper test if you have a three second lag at all times.

Thanks Heav!