The HC difference

Serdash said:
Then again, I've always been a big fan of blocking. You can live with it, you can live without it. But honestly when you've seen characters traverse to guardian with <800 life, low vitality, somewhat pumped energy and dexterity for max block, you realize how useless those few points in life are going to be.
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I'm sure you are right about low life guardian. But there are times in this game, that you could recieve stupid high amount of damage in "single hit". Mostly when that happens, block can do nothing about it, but high life will ensure you can survive.

My HC zon recent experience in A3 (hell), there was time one hit (door trap) = over 800 final damages. keep in mind that I have max resistant, 10%PDR. If wasn't my zon has over 1k life, she would be deeds few times already.

I think the general rule in HC is: every single life counts.
 
Serdash said:
I don't see the logic in;



When most of the time I hit that level I'm prepared to go into hell, and I'm not much worried about where stat points go since I'm ready to survive the hardest part of the game.

Not to mention 50 points in vitality isn't exactly the most amazing thing for a sorceress. It's 100 life. Easily made up in a few charms. Sure, grand charms can get up there in mana, but if you simply place nothing but blue potions in your belt, it's going to be harder to live through tough situations that may require a full rejuv or two, or even simple healing potions.

Then again, I've always been a big fan of blocking. You can live with it, you can live without it. But honestly when you've seen characters traverse to guardian with <800 life, low vitality, somewhat pumped energy and dexterity for max block, you realize how useless those few points in life are going to be.

But not trying to flame you. Your opinion is yours after all. ;)
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Not saying that max block is bad or more points in strength is bad. I chose not to go for block with my Necro because I had a Bone Armor that would absorb 400 physical damage. I am just saying that points in Energy is a waste with any character. The Belt full of blues has to do with Act I normal before he has access to the Tir runes. The leveling process that takes place while you are running the tower. I always run the tower to get my start gear and level from 10-18 in HC untwinked. That is the time when he will need to use the blues. After that it is smooth sailing. I desribed what I did before that happened. After that my belt consited of 9 healing potions and 3 mana potions. A Sorceror only gets two Mana points as well just like with Vitality. I use this same pattern with the Avenger to off set the mana cost, with mana after kil,l until I get mana leech and a good weapon.
 
IMO, odds are those High amounts of damage in a "single hit" that could be potential death(like FE and Gloams) are going to result in death regardless of your life and whatnot. Especially gloams, even though they're easily taken down by some absorb and resists.

But then again, my highest level HC character(a sorceress) didn't make it out of act 1 hell, so... you don't have to take my advice. ;P
 
My only existing two guardians are both fishy. So don't take my advice on sorc either. I'm working on my zon (one more act to go) right now.

Every single HC char I played, experienced hugh "one hit" damage somewhere around the game. So I personally will never play low life HC (you can bet if I ever give a d@mn about block, not even in SC). My personal play style is - survive first, so all my SC are played as they are HC (expect they can die).
 
I see it as more down to style. If you like to block alot then you will obviously prefer to take alot of dex.

Playing a sorceress, I find she blocks far too slowly. As such, I don't want to pump up her dexterity and risk going into block lock. Your defence isn't going to be all that great as it is, so the fact that you block 75% of the hits is not going to help imo. You'll just go into block lock and take the hits that pass through, while being unable to move.

By putting points into vit, I feel I have a lower chance to be stunlocked when I *do* get hit, and therefore have a chance to get away. Of course, with a shield you'd have more of a chance to take potions before dying to a pack of frenzytaurs. But they'll still rip you up either way unless you're lucky :wink3:
 
To deathmaster: I'm thinking you're right on the concentration of vitality. Huge block is good, especially against long range attacks, but that block is a chance... not a guaranteed thing. Increased vitality is money in the bank, especially with the right plus life items.

My untwinked Bnet character can solo normal and NM, but he was a werewolf druid and life was not the issue, nor was one death (he was SC).

So now, I'll probaly go 4 points to vit, 1 to dex. This will give me some blocking, but not so much as to lower my life if an attack gets through. Thanks for the advice :) .
 
DeathMaster said:
I'm bit confused, I though she is HC.
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She is, and she's dead, I have her backed up in a save file, but there would be no point of bringing her back, she failed :sad2:

What led to confusion?
The part about inventory consisting of charms? Thats my basic HC setup for any char, not just my sorc.
 
I wouldn't want to walk around hell with a bunch of armor filled with tir runes. I don't see that as beneficial when I could spend a few points into energy in the early levels and use my gear for resistance purposes.
 
LordMay said:
I wouldn't want to walk around hell with a bunch of armor filled with tir runes. I don't see that as beneficial when I could spend a few points into energy in the early levels and use my gear for resistance purposes.
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Well you dont need any resistances for normal except maybe lightning against gloams. I prefer rubies/saphire sockets, bigger mana pool refills faster along with warmth. I think the tir runes are only placeholders until you find decent mana regen or boosting gear. Frankly I dont see 10-12mana per kill helping a sorc much but they could be useful for a melee char lacking mana leech since their skills usually require fewer mana.
 
Hmm, well taking Serdash's stat's slightly, perhaps going

Strength: 75 (using charms as you said to boost that)
Energy: 50/75/100 (Depending on what I think I need as I'm headed to NM)

Then once that's sorted, go either 2/3 or 1/4 with Dexterity/Vitality respectively. Understand the need to have a large life pool, but I'd feel better if I had a shield to block with as well. Will probably end up waiting till about level 18-20 before taking on Andariel, normally do that quest at lvl16 softcore.

Not sure on the Tir runes thing. Would probably be do-able I guess, but to be honest I'd rather keep a row of blues in my belt and have the sockets for other purposes, like resists as was mentioned. Through normal I might not need much apart from lightning, but I wouldn't turn it down either.
 
Were did you get the idea I said walk around Hell with Tir Runes Lord May. This is normal only, I described the play style. You can breeze through normal with players set to 8 with a caster with only gear you buy in act I. You do not need any resists in normal. The only time you need resists is versus Diablo. Buy two other three socket Large Shields. Put three flawed Rubies in one and Three Flawed Topazes in the other. Use the Ruby shield for act three when it is needed. And the Topaz one for Diablo and parts of act II. The rest of the time 10-20 resists is fine. You can get this from buying gloves and boots in act II. Energy is a waste of points always no matter how much mana your spell costs. Even if you switch the Tir shield for a resist one you will have plus 10 to mana after kill with the weapon and helm alone. You should run Baal to level 50. By that time your base mana pool should be 160 with no points in Energy whatsoever. A ring with some mana and resists and other stuff from your gear should take you to 400 by the time you start Nightmare. This is more then enough. By the time you find better gear and level your Sorceror, she should easily have a thousand mana without ever having to put a single base point into energy.

If you are playing untwinked Perfect Sapphires are not an option. That is for mulers. You won't have any Perfect Sapphires until act V. And that is only if you cube every single chipped and flawed you find and you will be lucky to have more then two. We are talking about the early levels here. Mainly 2-4 Normal.

Plus a caster should always have a little plus mana after kill on her gear. Even at high levels. But you should not custom your gear for it. Just let it come naturally. But through Normal you should custom your gear for it.

Somebody go try this with a Charged Boltress. This is the only Sorceror I ever tried. Alternate your first 20 levels between Stregth and Vitality. Then go all Vitality to level 50. From there you can pump Dex and Strength if you want. Get the gear I recommended. Should take 30 Countess runs. Go to act two and set players to 8. Now stand there and hold shift and Spam out twenty bolts that cost ten mana each time you cast. I gurantee you that the only time you will have to take a blue is when you fight high hitpoint monsters that take awhile to kill. Act end bosses and some unique, champions. Everything else will fall so fast you will stay at full mana always. Tir runes are like dual leech rings to a caster in Normal. The hardest fights in hardcore for a caster are Diablo and Duriel. That is why you need to be pumping vitality. So you don't die in an untimely manner. Alot of times I put my first 150 points into vitality then work on the other stuff. This is with all characters. I do this with melee. A Barbarian can go to level 40 dual wielding two Steel Axes and wearing the stealth armor. My current Hardcore Barbarian put every point into vitality until level 35. then I worked on Strength and Dex. He is level 60 now. A melee character is much harder to do this with then a caster. As a caster can do insane damage by just using skill points.

I dare to say that a hardcore caster should put every single point into vitality. All 505 if you make it that far. Your orb has low strength. A rare Circlet and rare rings can easily give you plus 60 to stregth. More then enough to wear a Mage Plate and Equip a good shield and anything else you need to wear.
 
I'm going to disagree with the masses here a bit.

My first and only Guardian to date was a bone necro. Convetional wisdom says no points in energy, resits and damage reduction are king, and have one row of mana potions at best.

The best defense is a good offense. I went with THREE (3!) rows of mana potions, max plus skills at the expense of resists and zero damage reduction, and a decent investment in energy. Results = Spam strong bone spells everywhere, kill everything, don't worry. I never let up on the death button.

I tried the convetional wisdom plan and intended to follow that, but in practice, more mana and stronger hits was FAR safer and more realistic. A dead gloam is safer than 3 gloams with with 75 LR. You'd be surprised what a massive showering of bone spears will get you through.
 
I just want to add that early on you should probably focus more on life and wait until you actually get a shield that will be good for blocking before investing heavily into dexterity.

Just a small heads up.
 
Sir Dante said:
By the time you find better gear and level your Sorceror, she should easily have a thousand mana without ever having to put a single base point into energy.
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Huh, I must have been doing something horibliy wrong since my FB/Orb sorc (with a few points in energy) only had 500 mana. Or maybe I decided that MF, resists, and +life, and +skills gear was more important. What equipment are you using to get to 1000 mana? (Please note that I'm fully aware that 1000 mana is possible, I just also know it takes a lot of very specialized gear which means compromises and lot of twinking.)

I look at it this way: 35 points in energy gets me a couple more Frozen Orbs, a few more fireballs, or a few more rounds on Lightning or Chain Lightning. I'll take that over 70 life that I can get from a handfull of small charms. This is even nicer in 1.11 where you can't drink a blue while holding the shift key.

Edit: I agree with Serdash about waiting until later to start pumping dex if you go blocking. You won't need to block in normal, so I usually focus on life until I head into nightmare and have a good idea of what my final shield will be.
 
Cattleya said:
Huh, I must have been doing something horibliy wrong since my FB/Orb sorc (with a few points in energy) only had 500 mana. Or maybe I decided that MF, resists, and +life, and +skills gear was more important. What equipment are you using to get to 1000 mana? (Please note that I'm fully aware that 1000 mana is possible, I just also know it takes a lot of very specialized gear which means compromises and lot of twinking.)

I look at it this way: 35 points in energy gets me a couple more Frozen Orbs, a few more fireballs, or a few more rounds on Lightning or Chain Lightning. I'll take that over 70 life that I can get from a handfull of small charms. This is even nicer in 1.11 where you can't drink a blue while holding the shift key.

Edit: I agree with Serdash about waiting until later to start pumping dex if you go blocking. You won't need to block in normal, so I usually focus on life until I head into nightmare and have a good idea of what my final shield will be.
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You can also get that mana from charms.

And mana charms are better then life charms.

The Sorceror gains two life and two energy per point. So they are equal in that regard. That leaves charms which favor mana.

Max mana on grand charm. 59 The Item level is 49. Max life on grand charm 45. The Item level is 91. This is a huge advantage to mana. Max mana charms go way higher and can be found on act iii nightmare. Max life charms can only be found on three or so monsters in the game. This works all the way down in favor of mana.

Medium. 34 Mana 35 Life. They are about the same but mana charms have a lower item level.

Small 17 Mana 20 Life. Small favor of life but it doesn't balance out the other two.

So the advantage of charms and hard points are both in favor of vitality.

Pump Vitality and use Mana Charms. Don't pump Energy and use Life Charms. Not to mention she only gains 1 life point per level up and 2 mana per level up. Once again more favor to vitality.

The only advantage of life charms is you can have Skiller Charms Of Life. But cannot have them with Mana.

Level 70 Sorceror. Ready For Hell. With Base Energy.

69 Levels Equals 138 Mana plus 35 Start Mana

Total 173

Rare Gambled Ring or Found. Lets say 13 Energy and 47 Mana. Not hard to find since most people only gamble rings, amulets and circlets.

Rare Gambled Ring or Found. This one is 11 Energy and 39 Mana.

Rare Gambled Circlet. 17 Energy and 41 Mana.

Totals 41 Energy So 82 plus 47 plus 39 plus 41

Total 209 plus 173 equals 382 plus 173

Total 555

Your Orb lets say you use some crappy rare you find. 7 energy 39 mana and some skills to your tree.

53

Total

555 + 53 Equals 608

Use a 4 socket armor and put 2 Topazes and 2 Blues. Gives you magic find and more mana.

So now you have 700 Mana.

300 From Charms and your other gear will not be hard.

So you have a untwinked hardcore sorceror with 1000 mana say 140% magic find and no base points in energy.

I did it with the Wind Druid.
 
Most uber-twinked, base energy sorcs don't make it to 1000 mana without the help of a high level BO. You can devote all of your charms and half of your gear towards providing mana, but then you're missing out on stuff like FCR, resists, +skills, etc unless you're really lucky and find some great gear playing untwinked along the way.
 
@ SiTro
If you're going untwinked I suggest you plan on using Rhyme in a Grim Shield for mid/end-game. NM Countess can give you the runes fairly quickly, and 2os Grim Shields are pretty easy to come across too... plus you can plan your stat point distribution a little ahead of time (personally I'd aim for about 60% block with this shield).
 
I don't see that happening. Your plan relies on luck. It is rather ridiculous to expect an untwinked character to come across 300 mana's worth of charms. Then I'm supposed to spend who knows how much gold to gamble for rare items I may never get. Oh, and I have to be entering Hell for this to be feasable? Ya... I think I'd rather put some points into energy and focus on getting gear that will keep my alive. Under your plan all the stuff that Kabal said were necessary (which they are) are excluded.
 
Sir Dante said:
Max mana on grand charm. 59 The Item level is 49. Max life on grand charm 45. The Item level is 91. This is a huge advantage to mana. Max mana charms go way higher and can be found on act iii nightmare. Max life charms can only be found on three or so monsters in the game. This works all the way down in favor of mana.

Medium. 34 Mana 35 Life. They are about the same but mana charms have a lower item level.

Small 17 Mana 20 Life. Small favor of life but it doesn't balance out the other two.
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The way I see it, 3 perfect small charms of vita just edge out a perfect mana grand charm. After all, people do tend to use the size of charm that gives them the most bang for inventory space, so the fair comparison is the best per inventory space for each. So, in just pure amounts of mana/life you can get per inventory slot, they look pretty even to me. Then, add in that those small charms of vita have some of the better resist prefixes available, and life charms pull into the lead. (Mana charms can spawn with MF, but only on small charms which are not where the mana charms shine.) I'm not saying that mana charms aren't useful, they are. But I'm not likely to be convinced that they will edge out life charms for a sorc. :wink3:

Edit: So, what are the resists on the build you propose? Or are you talking about finding all of those rare items with high resists as well? :shocked:
 
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