Shadow Master and Shadow Warrior Information that everyone should understand
- Thread starter lextalionis
- Start date
Am I the only one who's not going nuts over this? Don't get me wrong, it's great the 1.10 Shadows can finally rival the Valkyries, but it's no fun letting minions do the killing for you. If you're able to get more than 15-odd +skills(which may be a problem for one who hasn't got access to top-end gear. With two +3 Trap claws, a +3 Ammy, +2 helm, +1 armor and two +1 rings would only net you 14, which is about as high as a casual player would usually get), you might able to get your Shadow do more damage than your own Traps, if you can manage to convince it's fickle AI to actually sit still and get to Trapping without charging into melee(then getting ripped apart, and forcing you to make it re-learn all its synergies) or throw FBs sporadically.
Getting a melee version of an Shadow sounds like a better idea, but without some very careful babysitting, she's might get killed repeatly by Gloams, IM, or mobs of Frenzytaurs/Serpent Magi/OK/that freaking Fanaticsm Extra Fast Extra Strong Flayer pack. There are simply too many dangers for an unsuspecting Shadow in the Worldstone Keep, IMO.
However, Shadows might have trouble dealing damage in melee as well. That 300-odd STR/DEX sounds mighty tasty for Kicks, but I'm having doubts about a lack of boots on Shadows(unless there's a different Kick damage formula for Shadows).
Besides that, there's no guarrantee that the Shadow will charge 3 TS before releasing DTail(or worse still, release those TS charges with her piddy Normal Attack).
PS also seems like an option, but like another poster pointed out, there's no guarantee that your SM will release the charge whose synergy you've maxed out.
The Trap/Melee suggestion brought up by Jrichard sounds best(I would go with 20 DTalon instead of DTail, though), IMO. After max SWarrior and the 1 point wonders, you have 64 points left (assuming slvl 85 character with the 12 skillpoints), leaving 44 for your Traps(20 goes into an MA skill). On yourself(with +12 Traps, and +13 SW), that means 1-2955 LS damage. On your SWarrior, that means 1-4490, which seems pretty decent IMO for supplementary damage.
However, the inherent AI factor with Shadows remains....if she decides to be a bit brave and follow your lead(go into melee), she might go down/deal no damage.
I know I'm probably being unduly pessimistic about the capabillities of Shadows, but it's just my cynical two cents on the topic.
Getting a melee version of an Shadow sounds like a better idea, but without some very careful babysitting, she's might get killed repeatly by Gloams, IM, or mobs of Frenzytaurs/Serpent Magi/OK/that freaking Fanaticsm Extra Fast Extra Strong Flayer pack. There are simply too many dangers for an unsuspecting Shadow in the Worldstone Keep, IMO.
However, Shadows might have trouble dealing damage in melee as well. That 300-odd STR/DEX sounds mighty tasty for Kicks, but I'm having doubts about a lack of boots on Shadows(unless there's a different Kick damage formula for Shadows).
Besides that, there's no guarrantee that the Shadow will charge 3 TS before releasing DTail(or worse still, release those TS charges with her piddy Normal Attack).
PS also seems like an option, but like another poster pointed out, there's no guarantee that your SM will release the charge whose synergy you've maxed out.
The Trap/Melee suggestion brought up by Jrichard sounds best(I would go with 20 DTalon instead of DTail, though), IMO. After max SWarrior and the 1 point wonders, you have 64 points left (assuming slvl 85 character with the 12 skillpoints), leaving 44 for your Traps(20 goes into an MA skill). On yourself(with +12 Traps, and +13 SW), that means 1-2955 LS damage. On your SWarrior, that means 1-4490, which seems pretty decent IMO for supplementary damage.
However, the inherent AI factor with Shadows remains....if she decides to be a bit brave and follow your lead(go into melee), she might go down/deal no damage.
I know I'm probably being unduly pessimistic about the capabillities of Shadows, but it's just my cynical two cents on the topic.
This all sounds pretty interesting, and I'll probrably go test this out a lil' but I share Nali's overall opinion.
It's all summed up, for me, by seeing how slow and generally stupid Shadow Warriors are and how easily they will go down most of the time.
No doubt, this info, opens up doors for variants, but overall I'd give it an eh...pretty cool. Not practically very useful during normal play.
~Bb
It's all summed up, for me, by seeing how slow and generally stupid Shadow Warriors are and how easily they will go down most of the time.
No doubt, this info, opens up doors for variants, but overall I'd give it an eh...pretty cool. Not practically very useful during normal play.
~Bb
BIGeyedBUG
New member
Actually I think Shadows can be pretty darn tough. There are times when they seem close to invulnerable. I've seen my SM sit in the middle of boss packs without appearing to take any damage. Much of this must depend on the gear they spawn with and getting them to Fade.
Shadows have two problems though:
- They are dumb. Who cares if your Warriors trap causes 2x your damage if she is casting them in the wrong place or using them against the wrong critter? You cannot count on any charge-up being used optimally.
- They are slooooowwww. There rate of decision making is (hopefully) much slower than their caster's. Traps will not be placed quickly; martial arts will not cause that much damage over a given period of time.
- Okay, they have three problems. They tend to dissappear. This will probably happen immediately after you've burned in the final synergy to their atomic Fire Blast. How much time do you want to spend burning in skills and then herding your Shadow? And then managing it during battles. Like Nali was saying, this sounds boring.
These problems do not bother me when I see the Shadow as a backup. Much of the time I'm impressed with my SM because I don't rely on or expect very much from it.
Centering a build around a Shadow however, seems to me problematic. This isn't to say it's stupid. I would just say take some of these issues into account before getting too worked up.
edit--completely missed beatboxer's last post. oops.
Shadows have two problems though:
- They are dumb. Who cares if your Warriors trap causes 2x your damage if she is casting them in the wrong place or using them against the wrong critter? You cannot count on any charge-up being used optimally.
- They are slooooowwww. There rate of decision making is (hopefully) much slower than their caster's. Traps will not be placed quickly; martial arts will not cause that much damage over a given period of time.
- Okay, they have three problems. They tend to dissappear. This will probably happen immediately after you've burned in the final synergy to their atomic Fire Blast. How much time do you want to spend burning in skills and then herding your Shadow? And then managing it during battles. Like Nali was saying, this sounds boring.
These problems do not bother me when I see the Shadow as a backup. Much of the time I'm impressed with my SM because I don't rely on or expect very much from it.
Centering a build around a Shadow however, seems to me problematic. This isn't to say it's stupid. I would just say take some of these issues into account before getting too worked up.
edit--completely missed beatboxer's last post. oops.
lextalionis
New member
Well I still think it could work with BoI on Right button and DTalon on left botton. The SW would spam BoI or kick. You would be set up for optimal DTalon Damage and your SW would freeze and chill things. You get the synergy bonus, but running the FoF, CoT, and BoI damage thru the calculator the damage was pretty pathetic at level 33. Roughly 1500, and don't forget it takes charge ups to release that damage.
I also think if you are putting all those points into the shadow tree with a DTalon build with SW, that you have to remember to max Venom and make your SW turn that on as well. Not to mention Fade at whatever level it is.
I haven't give up on trying to figure out a way to make this quirkiness be fun and affective, but I haven't seen it yet.
I also think if you are putting all those points into the shadow tree with a DTalon build with SW, that you have to remember to max Venom and make your SW turn that on as well. Not to mention Fade at whatever level it is.
I haven't give up on trying to figure out a way to make this quirkiness be fun and affective, but I haven't seen it yet.
Julius Seizure
New member
Ty
Thanks for the STR/DEX info, and I forgot about the whole "boot thing" (although boots seem to have less of an effect the higher your str/dex is, or am i reading my char screen wrong...). I could summon a lvl 27 SW, and and 270/270 str/dex is good damage.
I really want to go SW so she'll use D-talon, and always have fade on. But would it just be better to go with a lvl 17 with +skills SM? I don't mean to bring my paltry build to this discussion, but any advice would be welcome.
Current build (HCL): 35 points left over
20 fade
19 d-talon
3- Wb (to bring wb to 50%/lvl10)
1- P-hammer
1- CoS
1- MB
1- SW (Maybe ill max?)
1- SM (LVL 17 with + skills maybe?)
1- venom (maybe ill max?)
Thanks for the STR/DEX info, and I forgot about the whole "boot thing" (although boots seem to have less of an effect the higher your str/dex is, or am i reading my char screen wrong...). I could summon a lvl 27 SW, and and 270/270 str/dex is good damage.
I really want to go SW so she'll use D-talon, and always have fade on. But would it just be better to go with a lvl 17 with +skills SM? I don't mean to bring my paltry build to this discussion, but any advice would be welcome.
Current build (HCL): 35 points left over
20 fade
19 d-talon
3- Wb (to bring wb to 50%/lvl10)
1- P-hammer
1- CoS
1- MB
1- SW (Maybe ill max?)
1- SM (LVL 17 with + skills maybe?)
1- venom (maybe ill max?)
There are lots of numbers and plenty theoretical talk here, but has anyone actually tried this out? Is 20 points in SW a worthwhile investment. Is it worth giving up maxing another skill for example (i.e. instead of FoF for the PS synergy in my case)? Does your shadow warrior help significantly, or is it just a weaker version of a merc that you dont have to pay 50k to resurrect every time?
Frenzied Bovine
New member
Two things I'd like to add:
1) If you want to use this with a Shadow Warrior, you need to put at least one point into every ability you would like your Shadow Warrior to use, learn and subsequently synergize with. IF you don't, YOU can't even put it on a button, so the shadow never will either!
2) Shadows don't spawn with boots, ever. So while they get an impressive 10 dex and strength per level, their kick damage is probably going to suck anyway. Likewise, don't expect them to do any serious ts damage either as their claw damage is going to bite. The best application of this IMO would be either traps, or an elemental skill such as Phoenix Strike/CoT/BoI/FoF.
1) If you want to use this with a Shadow Warrior, you need to put at least one point into every ability you would like your Shadow Warrior to use, learn and subsequently synergize with. IF you don't, YOU can't even put it on a button, so the shadow never will either!
2) Shadows don't spawn with boots, ever. So while they get an impressive 10 dex and strength per level, their kick damage is probably going to suck anyway. Likewise, don't expect them to do any serious ts damage either as their claw damage is going to bite. The best application of this IMO would be either traps, or an elemental skill such as Phoenix Strike/CoT/BoI/FoF.
lextalionis
New member
mondo1023 said:
"Learing" just gives them a synergy level. Most people want to use FADE instead of BoS for their SW because they don't want to take the time out later to teach them again. FADE won't last any longer than it will last on your assassin, but becasue its such a pain in the butt to make the SW learn stuff that who wants to take the time to do it.
But you remember synergy levels. But you don't remember active spells
what about the 'immune' stuff ?
the SW gains 4*lvl in each resists with a 75% resist cap
so a lvl 19 SW has 75% base resist all
a high lvl fade gives her ~60% resist all => 135%
Q1 : does she suffer from NM & HELL penalties ?
i think she does, so that she doen't become UBER.
Q2 : a lvl 22+ SM can have 85% base resist + ~70% resist all = 155% resist all.
adding resists from her rare gear, can she become immune to all elements + poison ? (+200% resist all)
i'm supposing she recieves -100% resist all in hell.
can someone with a high SM test this by spamming her several times and watching immunities with the 'unsummon' skill ?
whatever her gear is, she may be immune when casting fade.
the SW gains 4*lvl in each resists with a 75% resist cap
so a lvl 19 SW has 75% base resist all
a high lvl fade gives her ~60% resist all => 135%
Q1 : does she suffer from NM & HELL penalties ?
i think she does, so that she doen't become UBER.
Q2 : a lvl 22+ SM can have 85% base resist + ~70% resist all = 155% resist all.
adding resists from her rare gear, can she become immune to all elements + poison ? (+200% resist all)
i'm supposing she recieves -100% resist all in hell.
can someone with a high SM test this by spamming her several times and watching immunities with the 'unsummon' skill ?
whatever her gear is, she may be immune when casting fade.
I've always liked shadow master. Is there any way to 'influence' what skills she uses at all?
On a side note: One thing I did realize as I've played my MA sin is that 9 out of ten times when I cast my shadow, she'll opt to cast FADE instead of BOS while almost always also casting venom and blade shield. Anyone know why? I use BOS exlusively, and only have one point in fade (although I think I also only have one point in BOS as well)
On a side note: One thing I did realize as I've played my MA sin is that 9 out of ten times when I cast my shadow, she'll opt to cast FADE instead of BOS while almost always also casting venom and blade shield. Anyone know why? I use BOS exlusively, and only have one point in fade (although I think I also only have one point in BOS as well)
lextalionis
New member
I don't know how this functions at high levels of SW, but at low levels, I can so rarely get the little blighter to cast traps that it just really doesn't seem to work well. Does anyone have any reports on making this work worth a darn? I believe the math works, I'm just not sure that the AI will be even unefficient with using stuff. My Shadow Warrior even though he's stuck using two skills seems to screw around more than doing anything worth while. Maybe he has mana problems at low levels????
Bonescorpion
New member
I used warrior all throughout nm using cot and dc. She cast cot a decent amount of the time and meleed with my about 90% of the time. This was at lvl 9. One thing I did notice is that her release many times was timed with mine (maybe was just me) I would see a double nova and a ton of bolts. Maybe the master uses more actively what u are using actively not just on ur active key.
However in hell she could barely get a single hit off so I switched to master for the tankablity. I think at a high lvl, the warrior would be advantagous to a ps assassin, but then again I like the occasional mb my master throws out there, sometimes when I am in the thick of things....
However in hell she could barely get a single hit off so I switched to master for the tankablity. I think at a high lvl, the warrior would be advantagous to a ps assassin, but then again I like the occasional mb my master throws out there, sometimes when I am in the thick of things....