RFD - Is it time to remove the vanilla/FAM split?

NoisemakerArrow said:
I noticed that the people defending the farming of items from old versions carefully avoided the farming part of what I said and focused on the fact that characters naturally change versions. Yeah, you change versions ONCE. When a new patch comes out, you slap it on your game and you play it from then on. You accept the changes of that patch as they are. What so many people do is try to get the best of every patch. That's an exploit, pure and simple. Why were those items removed? Because they were seen as "not good" for the game as a whole. Many were overpowered. If you want those items, play the version in which they spawn. You can play another version too, if you want. But transferring items from version to version so you can have the best of both is complete and utter crap. You're done with an older version and you want to change to a new one? Ok, change. ONCE. Some years go by and you feel like playing the older version again? Go ahead. But this time you don't have an excuse to bring everything to a newer version since you already have characters in it.

When did Blizzard ever support time-travelling? Not deleting your current items when a new patch comes out doesn't classify as supporting time-travelling. It classifies as Blizzard not wanting to piss off all its customers. When did any Blizzard employee ever say "We support people having multiple installations of the game so they can scum the hell out of every version and get the most powerful items of each into the current version."? That's what time-travelling is. And it's an exploit. And I won't play or trade with anyone who does it. I want to know who those cheaters are so I can avoid them.

"It just sounds like knocking down apartments to try and lower rent prices, to me."

Won't that just cause them to go up due to lower supply?
Click to expand...
I feel like you come around to say this once or twice a year and then we remind you that you don't have to participate in what others are doing and have been doing more than a decade. We get it: You don't like these things.

That's fine, don't participate in trades/MPing then, but don't expect those who have sunk years of their life to just delete everything based on your opinion. Maybe if you want to trade/MP with someone they will make a clean char or stash just for you. That's up to you to ask, though
 
@TheNix I mostly agree with your sentiment, I will note that Enigma and Call to Arms are both NON ladder. However I do concur that Grief and Insight are overpowered compared to their cost, and Infinity is a complete game changer. I support the RWM's status as a FAM, but I can also see how one could still be significantly powerful even playing without it.
 
Just a fly-by to remind everyone to remain civil. If you don't like a practice, but it's accepted here, that doesn't make people who do it, cheats.

There is no way to enforce a restriction on the number of items brought forward/farmind previous versions. If I recall correctly, there USED to be a restriction many many years ago, but it just wasn't enforceable. (I'm talking before I joined the forum, so please free to correct with with your zimmer frame.)

The Blizzard ftp link to previous download versions, is in the SPF FAQ. If they didn't want people playing previous versions, why host them?

Bear in mind that while the ladder only runewords are powerful, up until 1.13, rune drops were significantly lower. Getting the runes for things like Infinity/Grief were not the same proposition as now.

I put this up as a Request For Discussion (Usenet back in the day) to see what the current feeling were given the dramatically limited trading that's now going on, the much smaller player base, the changes to rune drops and built-in rune colours.

While contributions have been interesting and valuable (in the main), it's indicative of the quietness of the forum when you see how few contributions there have been compared to the last few times this was discussed.

Personally, I can see both sides, hence the reason I started the thread. "Vanilla is harder so it should have an extra status", "pretty much everyone is FAM or tainted by 'non pure' practices, so why keep the separation". HC/SC merge never even crossed my mind.

I'll leave this open for a while. Thanks for the contributions so far. :)
 
Friiser said:
HC changes a player's strategy based on risk, not the way an item is generated from a monster being defeated. I understand you value your time it took to get an item, but that is play dependent, not game code dependent.



I wouldn't, but I don't see that as an apples-to-apples comparison. There are different monsters, quests, etc in the Eastern Sun that aren't in the regular game (I'm assuming that, as I've not played Eastern Sun).
Click to expand...

It changes their strategy and it doesn't change the way an item is generated, both true, however it doesn't change that you can't effectively run with 800 mf in HC without huge risk, where as in SC, you can run with 1600 mf with no risk (excluding exp drop). Therefore drop rates are altered because I can be much more reckless in SC.

Opinion on the topic at hand, keep it separate, but I really don't think it matters since hardly anyone here is vanilla anymore. There are very very few "vanilla" players.
 
@Pyrotechnician I wouldn't go as far as saying that the drop rates are altered since it's still the same RNG, but I definitely agree with you that the sacrifice that is needed to get the same item in Hardcore intrinsically makes the HC version much more valuable. That and the "YOLO" philosophy of hardcore means they should be completely separate. (Did I just use YOLO as a way to describe Hardcore? I think I've been infected! :eek:)
 
fearedbliss said:
@Pyrotechnician I wouldn't go as far as saying that the drop rates are altered since it's still the same RNG, but I definitely agree with you that the sacrifice that is needed to get the same item in Hardcore intrinsically makes the HC version much more valuable. That and the "YOLO" philosophy of hardcore means they should be completely separate. (Did I just use YOLO as a way to describe Hardcore? I think I've been infected! :eek:)
Click to expand...


Yeah I guess, RNG doesn't change, but the drop rates do due to differences in MF. Although I guess in theory if I was as good as Fabian/Nulio/Griph I could wear max magic find and still not die.
 
Also the fact that if/when items win deeds, they are gone, thus the supply is theoretically lower, thus the values are different. Chipped gems? Probably no difference. TC87's? Even with the dedicated runners/hoarders in the HCMP/TP there aren't as many available for trade, thus the values are in fact different.

Thy, I never meant to suggest a HC/SC merge, I apologize if this is what was taken from my statement. I merely meant it as an illustration to attempt to supply logic behind my "keep 'em split" ideology.
 
I never played the glass cannon max MF style in order to maximize drops sacrificing XP for deaths, so it hadn't occurred to me that style vs. HC and what that meant in trades. From a HC perspective, it should statistically take longer to get the same item as it would in SC (more effort in HC, therefore itamz are worth more).

On the other hand, some TC3 that I needed to fill a hole in my grail may have taken a boat load of low level high MF running (time, effort, etc) to get, but that does not make the item more valuable...does it?
 
I haven't participated in forum events in years, so my opinion is moot: but from what I've read it seems the consensus is to have it remain the same. I don't recall seeing a post saying, "let's merge vanillaFAM".

Believe it was Goober's trade profile: I feel that should remain the same, as there are those who disagree with atma bugging, bringing items forward, and what not, and if the trade pool really is as low as it sounds, a merger will only push those who wish to be FAM-but-separate even further out of the barrel. Having to post your gameplay techniques in your trade profile is a good way to keep everyone accountable.

I recall reading about a forum member (cyrax or corax) who did a full-restart because an item they won in a tournament wound up being tainted.

Everyone seems to be pretty religious about the way they play Diablo: keeping stashes for vanilla gameplay, MP, 1.07, HC, SC, bugging, etc. My vote is for it to remain as-is.

Although, I also do not recall seeing anyone opposing a full-FAM merger (not posting whether or not you at-bug, for example).
 
Though I've mostly let go of my D2 now, simply due to lack of time;
I would like to unlurk out of the shadows and post my two cents on this.

To first answer the main question of the thread: Partially.
I believe the Vanilla/FAM split should be left mostly as is.
The Vanilla/FAM separation - and the HC/SC separation - seem quite obvious as it is necessary,
on a simple reason that it heavily changes the gameplay.

I say mostly, though, in regards to the RRM and CRM mods.
I believe they do not provide any changes to the actual gameplay,
and with the recent color change of the runes on the game itself;
I think the trading pools with vanilla players and
the players who only use RRM and CRM could be merged
- under a new name Strawberry! ;)

Of course, as is with FAM traders, players would declare
what mod they use in their trader's profile; and it would let other players decide
if they want to trade with someone who uses such and such.

There's my two cents.

now I go burrow.
-- Gynli
 
pharphis said:
I feel like you come around to say this once or twice a year and then we remind you that you don't have to participate in what others are doing and have been doing more than a decade. We get it: You don't like these things.

That's fine, don't participate in trades/MPing then, but don't expect those who have sunk years of their life to just delete everything based on your opinion. Maybe if you want to trade/MP with someone they will make a clean char or stash just for you. That's up to you to ask, though
Click to expand...

I feel like you don't read and get defensive and try to make yourself seem like part of the majority. When did I say people should delete anything? Point it out.

Thyiad said:
Just a fly-by to remind everyone to remain civil. If you don't like a practice, but it's accepted here, that doesn't make people who do it, cheats.
Click to expand...

If people cheat, they're cheaters. It's not about whether you like it or not. It can be accepted and still be cheating.
 
@NoisemakerArrow That's exactly the thing though, you considering that people that farm items in previous versions to bring to future versions - are cheaters is your opinion. You are stating it like if it is a fact. This is a subjective/perceptive idea and view of how the game should be played. I definitely don't consider people farming items in previous versions to be cheating, and neither of us are wrong. For me as I said before it is a natural progression of the game. The fact that we can continuously do this in Single Player (aka continuously relieve the "patch upgrade experience") is just another benefit of Single Player. If I wanted to be stuck to the latest version or not have any control over this, I might as well play on battle.net or play Diablo 3 where you always have to play the latest version (and can't even play - classic Diablo 3 the way that it originally was made due to the Loot 2.0 changes. Not saying Loot 2.0 was bad, but just saying that the changes made to RoS have affected D3 classic and there is no way to just pick a box and have the mechanics function exactly as it was in original D3).
 
I think that we can remove the Vanilla/FAM split. tbh using ATMA or GoMule should break vanilla status. The guy that charsi'ed his amazing dweb because he was playing with a Paladin, he's a true vanilla player.
More important, the FAM rules should be more comprehensive. Which versions can use RWM. Which versions can use CRM/RRM. Then if you trade, you know you are tainted or use those.
IF there were way more people trading, then we could try to still have a "Vanilla" status, but no point for that these days.
 
Last edited:
Log in to Reply / Create Site Account
Remove Ads - Go PurePremium

Latest posts

Back
Top