Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

[Noammr]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

Putting this up for anyone who wants to read up the Crooked Detective's role description as it was used on one spf games.

I'd like to add that I think we definitely shouldn't rush to conclusions and just assume we're seening the same role here...maybe our cop is handicapped and roleblocks anyone he investigates or something like that. Just that fact that it works against us doesn't necessarily mean the source is an anti-town role.

 

[Soylentred]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

How does this work against us ?
The story we have is Thyiad was killed and Aman is being investigated hinting that he had a role in it. If how it works against us is that we can't lynch him today, we can another day.
Sorry if I'm being dense but just as Noammr said why does this have to be anti town?

 

[friedbananazzzz]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

Agh! Just thought of something...
Regardless of whether or not the actual person is pro-mafia or pro-town (though right now it sounds like it's leaning towards being pro-mafia ), the role sounds like it's a double edged sword... (at least, if I understand it correctly...)

- It can be used to roleblock a townie at night
or
- It could protect a mafia member from being lynched during the day

So we can't even assume right away that anyone locked up is a townie :embarrassed:

Does this make sense? Am I understanding it right? (my first time seeing the role)

 

[friedbananazzzz]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

(read Soy's post now, which put a couple more thoughts into my head, making me think that it's a pro-mafia role more)
I guess it would only be pro-town if the person's role was revealed to the investigator, or if it had a chance of blocking the NK if a mafia member is locked up (say a 1/# chance, depending how many mafia there are).

Reading the first page again, I realized that I hadn't even thought that it was a pro-mafia role until Zhao pointed out that it was a Crooked Detective in a previous game. So I guess there's not even a garuantee that that's how the role is being used in this game...

 

[Soylentred]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

Well those two scenarios definately are anti town a) blocking a townie b) protecting mafia. Now I get it.

 

[Noammr]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

Soy, first off, when I said that it works against us, I meant the concept of roleblocking, not this particular case, I absolutly agree that roleblocking could work either way, pro or anti town. All I said is that we should keep an open mind since a number of people before me seemed set on the idea that the 'FBI Agent' is a pro-mafia role due to similarities between him and the crooked investegator.

 

[Soylentred]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

Gotcha.
Me above all should know to be suspicious of all the ways the host can twist this up.

 

[Orphan]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

- It could protect a mafia member from being lynched during the day

It could also technically be used to protect a pro-townie from being lynched and killed a night, though it's probably less of a bonus than doing the same thing to a mafia member because it's virtually the same as removing the pro-townie from the game for a full day (and at least the mafia have other mafia to do the night-kill).

That said, if taken from a real world scenario then having Aman detained by an FBI agent might make him look suspicious, since you would naturally think that with their resources they must have had a relatively good reason to detain Aman. In the context of this game though I doubt the FBI agent has much more knowledge than the rest of us, which to me makes it more of a random act on a random person, and little more.

The wording of "banned" on Thyiad's death makes me wonder if the mafia are SP regulars though :scratch:

 

[SiTro]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

How does this work against us ?
The story we have is Thyiad was killed and Aman is being investigated hinting that he had a role in it. If how it works against us is that we can't lynch him today, we can another day.
Sorry if I'm being dense but just as Noammr said why does this have to be anti town?

An early candidate for funding from the "MassiveSin Academy of Overestimating the Information Held By Others"?

Assume for the moment Aman is mafia.
It's night 1. How could anyone hint Aman had a hand in it by investigating him without:

a) Both being mafia.
b) Being assigned a role that was blatantly unfair (having even a % chance to detain someone involved in an nk?)
c) Having been suspicious of Aman already at the time of the decision.

Forgive me if I discount b) immediately. The choice is between one mafioso imprisoning another or a third party distrusting Aman based on their gut and what he's posted so far.

Either way I don't think you can infer anything about his mafiacity from that.

I still think that if Aman is mafia then there's a strong choice that it's to protect him from a retribution from Zhao.
If Aman is townie then it's probably being used to cast suspicion onto him at an early stage. And from the amount of discussion it's generated it seems to be working already.

While roleblockers aren't necessarily restricted to anti-town sides, I can't see much pro-town benefit to using it last night when it was essentially a blind shot in the dark. Think about it. The town has power roles that work independently of each other, which means that if the doctor is roleblocked the town loses the chance of having the nk saved that night. On the other hand, depending on how Ray implements the roleblocker blocking one of the mafia members may have little effect just yet (since there'd still be a few others who could go off merry-making and the odd spot of murder on the side). I don't think I'd feel comfortable being a pro-town roleblocker and using the ability without any information whatsoever... would you?

It interests me as to why it was said by Zhao that he saw Serdash out after dark while drinking. I also find it interesting Nolecub was quick to vote for Serdash, with no proof but Zhao posting that he saw him out. Right now, we don't know anything about roles, except for the possible Crooked Fbi Agent.

On another note, I would like to take a look over this MafiaWiki, anyone point me in the right direction?

This post strikes an odd note with me for some reason. I can't pin my finger on it quite, but I don't feel I can trust it at all. Maybe it's just me, it's late after all.

One other thing I haven't seen anybody comment on just yet. The reference to there being an FBI agent was in the italics part of Ray's post, the part that is purely story. Now, I don't know about you but I can't see a mafioso wandering up to the town governor and saying "Hi, I'm a crooked detective and I'd like to question one of your townsfolk today in order to protect my brethren." So I'm not taking it as read we have an FBI presence (positive connotations), but rather a roleblocker of as yet unknown alignment.

It's late and I need to sleep. I'll have another look over the thread tomorrow either before or after work and see if any more posts are dripping with lasagne stains. If so, I'm afraid I'll have to distribute some more Mafia Points.

Keep well people.

 

[ogogo on ice]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

Sitro: I do agree that waiting to see what people say is more important then just trusting luck, which is why I've been saving my vote. And with

I still think that if Aman is mafia then there's a strong choice that it's to protect him from a retribution from Zhao.

are you thinking that there's correpondences between our dirty cop and the mafia?

And to agree with everyone else, the role does seem more anti-town then pro-town. Now I am off to sleep and read the mafiawiki. Hopefully more interesting things will make themselves apparent!

 

[Serdash]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

Vote: SiTro

My gut tells me he's a dirty mafia scrumbag.

My heart tells me he's a dirty mafia scrumbag.

The voices in my head tell me he's a pretty princess.

But my random vote for the first day just tells me to vote for him.

GG?

 

[Ankeli1]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

Perhaps the cop could investigate Aman for us? That way we'd get some clarification at least. As for my (random) vote, I'll hold it off for a little longer. No real reason to go poking anyone yet.

 

[spigot]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

I think everyone has covered most of the points all ready, the only thing I can say is going to go against me rather than anyone else, which is that the only real basis for getting more information in the first couple of days is to go for the low post-counters :jig:. However this seems to generate as much waffle as anything useful, and everyone has posted (i think).

I don't like Zhao's reference either, its too easy to read too much into it can you say any more Zhao? And what were you doing out at night? Were you any where near Thyiads? I don't want to lynch somebody important on the basis of too little information.

Based on the analysis that the fbi role is more likely to be anti-town (Sitro as always made a lot of sense), for now, I would guess that Aman is a townie and the role is likely to be the crooked cop role as in the SP game. I am not going to assume this, but it will be interesting to hear Aman's thoughts when he gets back.

I am going to get a vote in now against Soyl, his posts have either looked like useless spam, or dangerous jumping to conclusions, so for now:

vote: soylentred

 

[Ankeli1]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

Let us hope that Aman returns with his virginity intact. You never know what the crooked people do!

 

[Zhao_Yue1]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

So Dashy, I was out drinking yesterday and I saw you wonder around at night? What were you doing?

Not necessarily. Zhao is claiming to have been out drinking last night and says that he saw Serdash out during the night. The drinking power of townies has helped in the latest SPF game, so it may help us here.

It interests me as to why it was said by Zhao that he saw Serdash out after dark while drinking.

I wasn't previously aware of any roles that had drinking in them before the SPF game, though those are special rules...

I don't like Zhao's reference either, its too easy to read too much into it can you say any more Zhao? And what were you doing out at night? Were you any where near Thyiads? I don't want to lynch somebody important on the basis of too little information.

This is an in-game joke from Muzzz’s SPF Mafia game. Take no information value from it.

As far as I know, the drinking ability is unique to Muzzz’s game. I’ve never seen it used in any other Mafia game I’ve played.

This is my new fangled points system to help myself and others keep track in this round.

And so the tables have begun …something I like to see!

As to Aman's imprisonment, I'm not sure. I was detained myself on the first day by the Crooked Detective in one of the SPF games, so I know what it's like. But it could be that Aman is mafia and is hoping we lynch Zhao today so that he can live longer than Zhao?

It would be better to speculate on Aman’s innocent/guilt when he actually has a chance to defend himself. You don’t want to form a pre-conceived notion of him based solely on his detention.

Hmmm
I am so in favour of lynch early lynch often. We go nowhere if we can't get together and lynch someone every single day.

C’mon Soy you have to do better than that. I let your first filler post go to give you some benefit of doubt but your second filler post is too noticeable.

No one confronted you about your playstyle, you just threw out this general statement to give a image of being an active poster.

Plain old townie here everyone, and boy this post ran on for a lot longer then I origionally meant. Oh well. Not going to cast a vote yet though, going to see how things continue.

You managed to hit a triple-crown of bad posting:
- Liquid-ish “I’m just a townie†plea
- Having filler in your post to make it longer than needed
- Indicated you might be a bandwagoner

I also find it interesting Nolecub was quick to vote for Serdash, with no proof but Zhao posting that he saw him out.

That is true; I’m surprised he didn’t question me further before placing a vote on Dashy.

I'd like to add that I think we definitely shouldn't rush to conclusions and just assume we're seening the same role here...maybe our cop is handicapped and roleblocks anyone he investigates or something like that. Just that fact that it works against us doesn't necessarily mean the source is an anti-town role.

I disagree with your logic. Historically the Crooked Detective has been anti-town and I’m staying with that assumption unless any additional evidence debunks this.

How does this work against us ?
The story we have is Thyiad was killed and Aman is being investigated hinting that he had a role in it.

Are you saying that because Aman was detained, that is a good indication that he killed Thyiad?

If how it works against us is that we can't lynch him today, we can another day.
Sorry if I'm being dense but just as Noammr said why does this have to be anti town?

Seems you already have made your judgment call on Aman and are getting the noose ready for him. I do not like that at all.

Your filler posts gave me notice of you, but you going after Aman when he isn’t even here are my ringing alarm bells.

Vote: Soy

So we can't even assume right away that anyone locked up is a townie :embarrassed:

Does this make sense? Am I understanding it right? (my first time seeing the role)

That is correct. The detainee can be either townie or mafia. He cannot detain himself.

It could also technically be used to protect a pro-townie from being lynched and killed a night, though it's probably less of a bonus than doing the same thing to a mafia member because it's virtually the same as removing the pro-townie from the game for a full day (and at least the mafia have other mafia to do the night-kill).

Also by detaining a townie, you remove a townie vote for the day, giving the mafia a slight advantage voting advantage. As the game progresses, this voting advantage increases a lot as the number of players are diminished.

I forgot to mention that in past games, the Crooked Detective could not detain the same person twice.

Perhaps the cop could investigate Aman for us? That way we'd get some clarification at least. As for my (random) vote, I'll hold it off for a little longer. No real reason to go poking anyone yet.

The cop should investigate the most suspicious poster of Day 1.

 

[Erwwwd]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

A lot to catch up on. The FBI involvement is still not completely clear but I think it would be very unusual if this role turns up to be pro-town in the end. As stated before the con's far outweigh the pro's. It can block a powerrole, like the doctor or cop, and it can save a mafia from being lynched for a day. Can't think of a way to turn these effects into a pro-town role. Only thing the town can do with this is save a townie from being lynched or nk'ed the night after, but that would only be used if the detainee was a confirmed townie, not on the first night like this, without any prior information to go on.

BTW, if you type this into google: "crooked detective" mafia, the first hit is the 2nd spf game with this character in it, the one noammr also linked to, it seems to be a real DII.net invention. The roledescription there looks suspiciously similar to what Ray posted about the consequences of being imprisoned. I'm going to just accept this for a fact right now and try to fit it into the information we have.

Two facts about this detective, as it was in the spf game- 1. he can only imprison someone once a game, so if this is true aman will never be imprisoned again. 2. The other mafia have no idea who this detective is, he acts alone outside of the mafia. We shouldn't assume that this is the case in this game but it might as well be, lets just keep those 2 things in mind.

Now some thoughts on this game.

I like the way Sitro is going at it, pro-active from the first post, I kind of feel he's positioning himself as a leader in the debate. This could be a very aggressive way for mafia to play, but it kind of seems right what he's saying and he seems to be thinking in the same veign(?) as I do on the subject of the crooked detective.

Zhao also seems to be pro-town as it was he who stated the crooked detective story in the first place, before his post we were still unaware of this option. If he already knew about this role(i.e. if he was the detective) he wouldn't tell this information himself but try and keep it hidden, as all roles are unknown at the start of the game. So apart from Aman we can also be fairly certain that Zhao isn't this role as well.

Spigot said everybody already posted, but after counting the living people off I think we still miss bobthewarrior at this point. Tell me what you mean by the postcounting though.

Ankeli, I'm not getting. Need to see more posts, and longer ones.

Ogogo, the hiding behind a random choice is a bad thing to do, always, even on the first day. Even if you're townie, know you have just giving an excuse to the mafia now, never do this!

Soylentred, and others who push for a lynching on every sinlge day, I might have a problem with this. This has been discussed more in previous games, I know that, but in the beginning you have a bigger chance of lynching a townie than lynching a mafia. There's little to go on still, so it boils down to odds, the last game here had 3 original mafia, and one mafia that was added later on. Making 3 out of 19 in that game, good targets for a lynch. But 16 out of 19 weren't, those odds are screwed up so much in favour of the mafia. This game may have a much larger mafia faction, and there is no traitor to add later on, ray promised that, but still, I think we need to let go of the idea of lynching just for the lynching.

I've typed for long enough now and I may have missed some things, but this will do for now.

 

[Hey]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

I agree with SiTro on the matter of Soy, seems to be quite a bit of irrelevant postings.

Vote: Soy

For now.

 

[spigot]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

This is an in-game joke from Muzzz’s SPF Mafia game. Take no information value from it.

Thanks for clearing this up Zhao, I thought this could well be un hareng saur.

Spigot said everybody already posted, but after counting the living people off I think we still miss bobthewarrior at this point. Tell me what you mean by the postcounting though.

The idea being that people with lower post counts should be forced into defending themselves, preventing lurkers and allowing people to make more informed decisions.

Also thanks for noticing Bob's lack of presence, I guess I scanned the player list too quickly. Come on Bob, stop being so quiet or I'm going to have to switch my vote over to you.

 

[Ankeli1]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

Of the post length, I'll rather stick with useless jokes until there's something I've actually noted worth saying. I'm not too much into chasing my own tail in a 2000 word essee like Sitro for example. Long posters early on give me the creeps.

 

[Noammr]

Re: Mafia: The Gangland Massacre

I disagree with your logic. Historically the Crooked Detective has been anti-town and I’m staying with that assumption unless any additional evidence debunks this.

Historically you are correct and furthermore, Sitro made a strong case for the role to be anti-town. I still won't be taking it for granted just yet, remember ray said we'll be seeing new roles in this game that haven't been used around here.

This has been discussed more in previous games, I know that, but in the beginning you have a bigger chance of lynching a townie than lynching a mafia. There's little to go on still, so it boils down to odds, the last game here had 3 original mafia, and one mafia that was added later on. Making 3 out of 19 in that game, good targets for a lynch. But 16 out of 19 weren't, those odds are screwed up so much in favour of the mafia. This game may have a much larger mafia faction, and there is no traitor to add later on, ray promised that, but still, I think we need to let go of the idea of lynching just for the lynching.

The trouble with this approch is that it's basicly in favor of letting the mafia thin our ranks a bit before lynching in favor of not killing off pro-town roles ourselfs. Odds are bad, but the only thing that changes them later in-game are mafia nk (well, and power roles, but you can't trust that to win you the game).


On the other hand, it seems to me some people here are a bit too eagre to start the bandwagon rolling, we have plenty of day to go and there's no reason to start pilling up votes on someone before they can defend themself.