Lord Chaos
New member
Daemonaz said:
I really never said it wasn't cheating, but I consider alot of things cheating...*shrugs*
Justification for cheating?
- Thread starter Mr Evil
- Start date
- Status
I really never said it wasn't cheating, but I consider alot of things cheating...*shrugs*
Lord Chaos
New member
Wuhan_Clan said:
Several reasons already stated in other threads. One of them is that its easier and you don't need someone with a stable connection to host, you don't have the added temptation of real cheating (level editing, item editing and a whole host of other problems), DC only spawns on Bnet, we've always played on Bnet...some of the others have their own chars they play publically with, but do not trade with people, and because sometimes its just good to chat...could propably mention a whole host of other reasons, but this will suffice.
This would be a great thing if Pandoras Box wasn't already opened...instead of having control over it, you let new players and frustrated players search...and what do you think they'll find?, the dark side of D2, a side I sincerely doubt Blizzard is going to continue to spend effort on reducing.
Yes, I know...but I doubt this approach will really have the desired effect in the end...of course Blizzard earns money by banned, so the more the merrier...which is propably the main reason they wouldn't want the features in the game, not many people to ban.
Yeah, but one is an automated bot. I just really hate teleporting around for the entrance only to find it the *LAST* place you looked.
annying....Heys, here's an idea, what if blizzard made a funpack for D2, that we'd have to pay for to play...and this added alot of the features we've discussed the visual effecfa...maybe this will be sellable
Lord Chaos said:
But if I see things black and white and now you admit that that MH is cheating and thus black, where is the grey area? Am I missing something? Or is it after all just simply black and white: you either cheat or you dont?
Well, this thread is going down to where all its predecessors have gone.. down to nowhere.. down to the same old arguments. This MH issue will never be resolved, until Blizzard takes a stand and bans all MH users.
Yeah, but here is the problem: if you're using maphack and we're both magic finding, you're going to end up with much better items as time goes on. See, sometimes my sorc takes up to 2 minutes to safely teleport (I'm HC only) around the entire edge of the map looking for the entrance. Meanwhile, you know the location of the monsters AND the durance. So lets say each run takes me about a minute while each takes you about 30 seconds. Thats 2 to 1 in chances to find better items and get an unfairly better character. So really, only ONE of us a "hard working" MFer... you're just investing your time, while I'm investing my time and effort.
Please read the above. Some of us just DO it because thats the game instead of cheating to convenience ourselves. I'm sorry if you are a "decent" cheater, but its been said before - most people are not.
Yes, the purchasing/selling of MH by Blizzard has definately been mentioned before, but the fact that that is some kind of possibility (which its not, cmon now) doesnt justify either.
This thread is indeed over, I just hope none of the people who cheat here play thinking they're doing the community a service. I'd rather be given a magic item from someone legit than a unique from a MHing magic finder any day.
Good day... I SAID GOOD DAY. :howdy:
Mr Evil said:
IMO there are ONLY A FEW excuses for cheating. And here is what I consider an excusable list:
A) u are an 11-35 y/o man who is too geeky/nerdy to ever get a date with even an average looking girl/woman
B) u are impetent and ur only way of getting pleasure is through cheating a game that is already too easy w/o cheats
C) ur brain is smaller than a crack baby born 6 months premature
D) ur parents were related BEFORE they got married, and it somehow effected ur mental state/ability to form rational thought
E) if ur a lazy, stupid, underachieving person who will never work a job that pays more than minimum wage throughout their life.
I guess I should also say that stupid cheaters should play on open if they want to cheat, or that blizzard should tag all cheaters and have a bounty on them, rewarding ppl who pk these cheaters repeatedly with special uniques that can only be given out by blizzard. Sort of a "Reward" for taking the time to kill off these losers. Special rewards will follow for those who manage to pop and steal all the gear from the cheater and sell to shopkeeper.
Rigel Kent
New member
Gawd, I've only been here half a year and I'm already sick of this discussion.
Sharp Implements for Inmates
Maphack's been used for (arguably) good things: anti-hacks, chicken hacks, cleaning up graphics bloat and other flaws in the game (the 1.10 Durance, indistinguishable grey text items, etc.). It's also been used for a lot of things that most non-maphackers claim are unfair: power-leveling, power-acting, MF'ing more efficiently.
It's simply too variable a tool. It can't be so grossly simplified as battle.net administrators and anti-maphackers like. Mousepad, as a coder, greatly values the power of user configuration-- it's the entire concept behind client-side utilities. Because of that, there's boundless customizability within maphack to use it for others' benefit, or for others' detriment. Like any tool-- perhaps moreso than most tools-- Maphack is only as good or evil as its users.
That said, it's yet to be proven to me that most maphackers are any more or any less greedy, conniving, or ill-mannered than the battle.net population in general. Conclusion: the only reason Maphack has merited this bad reputation is because battle.net is full of ruthless people to begin with.
Why? Because I Said So
Somehow, people still like to simplify the issue. The most black-and-white stance in the debate is held, of course, by battle.net administrators, whose policy boils down to:
1) It's cheating if we say it is,
2) Your punishment is whatever we feel like, when we feel like it, and
3) We forgot how to reinstate battle.net access keys, so don't ask. (Hey, didn't they tell the federal judge those are supposed to be copyright protection keys?)
This leads to the one point of contention pro-maphackers make that everybody should be agreeing on. This policy invites vastly more unfairness than a million magic finding maphackers put together. Battle.net's policies need clear delineations between serious, bannable offenses and those meriting only temporary action. The punishment for every violation should be well-known and consistently applied. The policy must meet the needs and public perceptions of its separate gaming populations-- Starcraft, Diablo, Warcraft all have different levels of tolerance for different third-party utilities, etc.
Such a fully-developed policy will protect everyone's interests equitably, deter cheating effectively, and build goodwill among Blizzard's consumer base.
Sharp Implements for Inmates
Maphack's been used for (arguably) good things: anti-hacks, chicken hacks, cleaning up graphics bloat and other flaws in the game (the 1.10 Durance, indistinguishable grey text items, etc.). It's also been used for a lot of things that most non-maphackers claim are unfair: power-leveling, power-acting, MF'ing more efficiently.
It's simply too variable a tool. It can't be so grossly simplified as battle.net administrators and anti-maphackers like. Mousepad, as a coder, greatly values the power of user configuration-- it's the entire concept behind client-side utilities. Because of that, there's boundless customizability within maphack to use it for others' benefit, or for others' detriment. Like any tool-- perhaps moreso than most tools-- Maphack is only as good or evil as its users.
That said, it's yet to be proven to me that most maphackers are any more or any less greedy, conniving, or ill-mannered than the battle.net population in general. Conclusion: the only reason Maphack has merited this bad reputation is because battle.net is full of ruthless people to begin with.
Why? Because I Said So
Somehow, people still like to simplify the issue. The most black-and-white stance in the debate is held, of course, by battle.net administrators, whose policy boils down to:
1) It's cheating if we say it is,
2) Your punishment is whatever we feel like, when we feel like it, and
3) We forgot how to reinstate battle.net access keys, so don't ask. (Hey, didn't they tell the federal judge those are supposed to be copyright protection keys?)
This leads to the one point of contention pro-maphackers make that everybody should be agreeing on. This policy invites vastly more unfairness than a million magic finding maphackers put together. Battle.net's policies need clear delineations between serious, bannable offenses and those meriting only temporary action. The punishment for every violation should be well-known and consistently applied. The policy must meet the needs and public perceptions of its separate gaming populations-- Starcraft, Diablo, Warcraft all have different levels of tolerance for different third-party utilities, etc.
Such a fully-developed policy will protect everyone's interests equitably, deter cheating effectively, and build goodwill among Blizzard's consumer base.
MixedVariety
Banned
Blizzard has specifically stated, time and time again, that Maphack is cheating. So, it is.
Is this too hard to understand? Going faster than the speed limit is breaking the law. Period. Doesn't matter that the fate of humankind depends on your speed, it still is breaking the law.
Doesn't matter if Blizzard should have incorporated Maphack-like qualities to their game; they didn't. It is cheating, and against their rules, and they've asked people not to do it. Nobody has to agree with them, or even understand and accept what they require, but what is it with cheating anyway when you know it's wrong?
Is this too hard to understand? Going faster than the speed limit is breaking the law. Period. Doesn't matter that the fate of humankind depends on your speed, it still is breaking the law.
Doesn't matter if Blizzard should have incorporated Maphack-like qualities to their game; they didn't. It is cheating, and against their rules, and they've asked people not to do it. Nobody has to agree with them, or even understand and accept what they require, but what is it with cheating anyway when you know it's wrong?
Wuhan_Clan
New member
So just because people get frustrated means that they should cheat? Let me give you a real life analogy (and this does apply just as well). Sometimes Coca Cola or Pepsi will have a sweepstakes where I win if there is a winning message under the bottle cap. Now lets say I buy lots of bottles but I still don't win. Now I get frustrated. Later, I build a machine that can scan bottle caps and check to see if the bottle is a winner. (analogous to picking up socketed armor to see if it is 4socket). I then use the machine and I only buy the bottles in the store that are winners. Is this cheating? Maybe you won't harm anyone since you play in your private games, but other people will be using maphacks features freely.Lord Chaos said:
This does not logically respond to what it was supposed to respond to. You sound like Blizzard won't incorporate a few basic MH features into D2 because you think they want to make money off bans? That is like saying that the government doesn't want to make driving 100mph in a school zone legal because they want to make money off speeding tickets.Lord Chaos said:
Well, botting programs are really just automatically doing MF runs but you could have done them yourself anyway so what's the harm? Thats the applying the same argument when you said, MH can tell you how many sockets are in an armor when I could have just picked them all up and found out anyway. The point is that all these programs make achieving gameplay goals in D2 (whatever they may be) a lot easier by saving time. The botting program is just saving you a lot more time.Lord Chaos said:
This has already been discussed. That's what open bnet is for, and ppl cant do anything there for free. Even if bnet came out with such a "funpack", it would still have to be played in a separate realm.Lord Chaos said:
Is blizz gonna have a mass banning of mher's and pickiter's and whatnoter's anytime soon like they have done in the past or is the new mh not able to be detected, even with the new security measures in place? im lookin forward to reading "1,000,000 mh user cd-keys have been banned from bnet." that will be so sweet. makes me shiver with glee just thinking of it......
Rigel Kent
New member
MixedVariety said:
Interesting analogy, but Blizzard's policies can't be so nicely compared to rule by democracy. Democratic law is well documented, well precedented, administered fully in the public eye, makes exceptions where exceptions are due, and is always subject to direct change by the voting public.
In my home state of California, the many sections of the Vehicle Code comprising our Basic Speed Law comprises pages upon pages of detailed exemptions, establishment procedures, penalty procedures, and limitations upon law enforcement (i.e. illegal speed limits, illegal speed traps). Even in the simplest case, a complaining officer must prove that the defendant's speed was what he says it was, and that the posted (prima facie) speed limit had been supported by an independent traffic survey within 5 years of the citation.
Those limitations on law enforcement are important, too. I met a lady at the courthouse one day who had the biggest grin on her face; she'd just come out of traffic court, and the officer had brought a traffic report dated 5 years and 2 months prior to the citation. The officer expressed disappointment about the commissioner "letting her off on a technicality", but I was familiar with the suburban road she'd been stopped on. It had been widened to four lanes, lit on both sides, guardrailed and divided during that period, yet the P.F. speed limit was inexplicably still 35! (Officer told me his radar showed 52.)
Long story short, "because the government said so" doesn't fly in the land of the free. Frankly, to imply that sort of policymaking has anything to do with democratic law is a great way to get on an American's case.
The analogy gets even weaker. Bad enough the government is subject to oversight from the general public; imagine how it would be if it had to compete on the open market like Blizzard's games? Mishandling of punitive policy can all the more quickly spell disaster in the face of market competition. Battle.net had best take off the black blinder, take off the white blinder, buy into a little social awareness, and, soon enough, relish the fruits of such noble investment.
Lord Chaos said:
Not a thing - but have you ever considered that your gameplay rhythm may have been influenced by maphack? That you only don't like to look at items on the ground because you are used to flying through the game at an unusually high speed?
Seriously, how hard is it to pick an item up and look at it?
Lord Chaos said:
So you are saying that using maphack to give you extra features that are not in the game code is okay because it makes the game more fun?
What I don't understand:
1) You find the game itself less than fun now without resorting to 3rd party programs.
2) You insist on bringing those 3rd party programs into a Realm that was expressly created the be 3rd party free
3) Why not play elsewhere in a place cheats are not policed?
4) Why not play another game if this one is not fun anymore?
RigelKent said:
So you are effectively saying the end justifies the means
Is that a good thing?
I also would have to disagree with Kitriara's statement which to me sounds completely ignorant on the subject of cheating in SP games. Until this very date, I've played basically in SP only, with only few short time periods spent on the realms. During the times I was in various realms, I encountered more cheating, duping and other problems such as bad mannered kids that I simply moved to play in SP.
Right now the SP forums in these very same forums here are one of the most active forums with new members coming in all the time, why is this? Simple, because realms are not cheat free, nor are they dupe free. In our community we respect each others, we play hack and dupe free games. If someone tries to cheat or dupe there and is caught, that person will never again trade there or play with others simply because everyone there hates cheaters.
As for this threads subject otherwise, while I'd love to have a feature with colored runes (and to me just this feature is easily available with various mods), I wont get it at all, unless it is added there by Blizzard themselves. Why? Because I'm not playing any mods with my characters, I'm playing 100% legit. And as for ATMA's legitimacy, it's been discussed so many times already that it's become quite pointless to even start it again. It's been accepted as an useful tool which is not for cheating even though it, like so many others, can be abused. Then again, so can the original game (Marrowalks bug anyone?).
To those who want to nitpick on my post, feel free, because frankly I don't care. Anyone can try to justify their cheating but basically it always comes down to the simple thing, if you have to ask about it, it's cheating, if you have to think about justifying it, it's cheating.
Now...this thread deserves an honorable death
Right now the SP forums in these very same forums here are one of the most active forums with new members coming in all the time, why is this? Simple, because realms are not cheat free, nor are they dupe free. In our community we respect each others, we play hack and dupe free games. If someone tries to cheat or dupe there and is caught, that person will never again trade there or play with others simply because everyone there hates cheaters.
As for this threads subject otherwise, while I'd love to have a feature with colored runes (and to me just this feature is easily available with various mods), I wont get it at all, unless it is added there by Blizzard themselves. Why? Because I'm not playing any mods with my characters, I'm playing 100% legit. And as for ATMA's legitimacy, it's been discussed so many times already that it's become quite pointless to even start it again. It's been accepted as an useful tool which is not for cheating even though it, like so many others, can be abused. Then again, so can the original game (Marrowalks bug anyone?).
To those who want to nitpick on my post, feel free, because frankly I don't care. Anyone can try to justify their cheating but basically it always comes down to the simple thing, if you have to ask about it, it's cheating, if you have to think about justifying it, it's cheating.
Now...this thread deserves an honorable death
Wolv said:
Wolv, a rose is a rose is a rose ... Whether Maphack and its associated 'features' are more or less subversive than other cheats/hacks is irrelevent. No 3rd party programs of any kind belong in Closed BNet. There are no exceptions. If one type of cheat is tolerated, we might as well tolerate them all: dupes, whites, hexes, drop hacks, trade hacks, chicken-hack, pickit, bots, crash-hacks, you name it. It would sure be a fun game then, wouldn't it?! :lol:
Lord Chaos said:
I try my best to see the issue from all sides. I'll try to do the same with your statement as it would be unfair for me not to do so.
You've made several things clear in this thread. You enjoy Diablo 2. However, there are a number of things that make it less fun for you. Namely, having to pick up grey items to check for sockets and stopping to locate a rune in an ocean of white items. You also dislike having to search for the stairs to Durance 3 and the Worldstone Chamber. Maphack remedies these problems and makes the game play at a pace and with an ease that you enjoy.
Also, you have stated that you only play within a small circle of friends in private, passworded games. Fair enough.
Now I am going to show you the other side of the problem. For this, I'm going to (gasp) completely ignore the EULA/ToS and the concept of what Closed BNet is supposed to mean. I need neither of those arguments to show you my side of the issue.
It's a matter of scruples, Lord Chaos. Maphack is a program available to anyone who has 10-15 bucks to shell out, or decides to risk downloading a cracked or alternate version. Maphack contains numerous other features besides simply revealing the map. Those features have been mentioned throughout this thread. Some of them give a given user a very unfair advantage not only against the PvM aspect of the game, but also against people who play fairly.
For every person like you who uses Maphack privately and in total isolation, there are 100 others who have no qualms about using it to gain an advantage over other players in any way they can. This is especially appalling in HC and dueling situations. Quite simply put, Maphack is a toy that is far too easy to abuse and frequently is. It should not be allowed on Closed BNet where many people go to play in a cheat-free environment. Would it be nice if we could make exceptions? Sure, but we can't.
Rigel Kent said:
Sometime, you need to ask Mousepad where he draws the line between user-customizability and breaking a game. Some features of Maphack cross that line wholesale. Where does it stop?
Jak said:
It ultimately boils down to selfishness tinged with a large dose of self-serving rationalization. Maphackers who defend their usage frequently have quite a convoluated -- but utterly superficial -- list of reasons why they pollute the realms with a program that obviously does not belong there.
Shockingly, I have no real disdain for the Maphack program itself. It's the people who choose to bring it into Closed Battlenet, a shared and public environment that is supposed to be cheat-free, that make me angry. For those who wish to use it: Use it, but respect the public with whom you share that playing space. There are plenty of alternative playing environments where you -- and others like you -- may use your 3rd party utilities. Please keep them out of Closed BNet. That is not asking for too much.
This game has room for all of us if we can simply agree to abide by a few simple rules.Lord Chaos
New member
Stealth77 said:
Considering that last time they did mass bannings, of all of the Diablo 2 players I knew of that time, most of the ones that got banned didn't use maphack or cheats...while those who did, didn't at all get banned.
But since you take so much glee in it, I think I'll laugh as much when you get picked for a random banning.
Lord Chaos
New member
Jak said:
Uhm, no it hasn't, because I played a LONG time before even having maphack.
And yes, it is, do you have any idea how many grey things spawn?, its ALOT...and for each and every one you have to pick it up, stop, check its sockets then put it down again...completely pointless.
Lord Chaos
New member
Dredd said:
I have also stated that I believe that being able to see the map could unbalance the game if used by others...as you remember in my other maphack feature thread I specifically stated that it was NOT a feature I would want...all I have mentioned in this thread, sorry if its poorly worded, is that I enjoyed the feature and for ME it would not be abused...but I can recognize when a feature can be abused by others...and therefor I would *NOT* want the map feature. I do not see how purple charms, gold runes and socket seeing unbalances the game if its avaliable to everyone...800x600 would unbalance the game too if it was only avaliable to a few, but since its avaliable to everyone, its not unbalancing.
The TOS/EULA are irrelevant to me, both legally and personally...the *only* thing that matter is what blizzard actually punish for, because they can punish for whatever reason they chose.
I agree, and as I said in the thread campaigning for the features to be implemented in either another program or Diablo itself, I don't like any of those features, and there was alot of features I was not aware had been added to the game.
For instance the see inventory could actually have been a nice feature if its ONLY avaliable during a trade (giving a little switch inventory button), to prevent cheaters, and to help players. (just a stray thought really)
I agree, but see...you will never get rid of these things and I doubt Blizzard after all this time will devote more ressources to eliminate these things (they've tried for years why should they succed now), eventually, all that will happen with this attitude is that someone cracks the memory code and passively reads all info and once such a tool is invented it *IS* unstoppable if it doesn't directly interact with client....see by making us all "evil", it just makes it so there are so much more people who seeks the SMALL things like me, who will be forced into getting the big nasty things and therefor giving more money for development and more fame to the people making the tools, hence more incentive for them to make worse and worse tools. It would be really sweet if the world was so simple black and white, but it really isn't, and time and again, black and white solution usually ends in a mess.
*shrugs*..there is no easy answer, but I do understand where you're coming from.
See, ever heard of UOAssist?, it is basically a kind of maphack for Ultima Online...OSI was smart and took Tugsoft under their wing and VOILA, they had control over the features, vastly reducing alot of cheats...see in UO (which I also play), I use UOAssist and none of the heavy cheat programs, the same with alot of others...but if they had banned UOAssist, then heck, I would be all over UOEasy or whatever the hell all these things are called.
While their solution is not perfect, it keeps alot of the cheating down to being developed to and by hardcores...and there's even more money and incentive to cheat in UO, than there is in Diablo 2.
I believe some of its features belong there (but since we cannot accuratly poll all B-net users, its a pointless speculation), and some of them do not.
Shockingly, I have no real disdain for the Maphack program itself. It's the people who choose to bring it into Closed Battlenet, a shared and public environment that is supposed to be cheat-free, that make me angry. For those who wish to use it: Use it, but respect the public with whom you share that playing space. There are plenty of alternative playing environments where you -- and others like you -- may use your 3rd party utilities. Please keep them out of Closed BNet. That is not asking for too much.
Heh, actually one of the reasons I do not use open battlenet or IP games, is *exactly* because of the cheating...not because others cheat me, but simply that I do not want to be tempted in a frustrated tired moment to use one of those damn annoying editors...thankfully on b-net, its way easier to stay away from such tools and its not just something you download in "the spur of the moment".
Anyway, its a looooooong discussion that noone will agree about.
Yeah, I have the same problem with monsters. Do you have any idea how many monsters spawn? It's ALOT... and for each and every one you have to stop and click on it, hit it and then kill it... completely pointless.Lord Chaos said:
Thus I believe there should be a third-party program to kill all the monsters for us! They should all drop dead as soon as they are within range so we don't waste our time with the tedious business of doing stuff in the game.
- Status
