Justification for cheating?

[Sein Schatten]

The essense of what you are saying here is: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander", correct? Everybody cheats, therefore I will cheat too. That doesn't hold water. Rampant cheating is what ultimately destroyed Diablo 1. Why should we as gamers allow that to happen to its sequel as well? There will always be cheaters; they will never go away completely. But why contribute to the disease?

hey, i am also against every form of cheat or hack if there may be in any way any other person involved (you know cheating in postal 2 is fun but i have done it on my pc).
i am not good in sayings, i dont live in the usa.
what i tried to say is that i only accept breaking the rules of games when absolutely no one gets involved or if all the players accept it. so this leads to the sp in all games. there you play alone and can do what you want. (except if you are trading in the sp forum or playing open with people you dont know.).

 

[suggestivename]

The essense of what you are saying here is: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander", correct? Everybody cheats, therefore I will cheat too. That doesn't hold water.

That's what I've gathered too: Reading mpq's cheating and everyone does it, so maphack is ok. Using Atma in single player is cheating and everyone does it, so maphack is ok. Using netstat to find dclone is cheating and everyone does it, so maphack is ok.

These statements don't hold logically. Then Chaos argues that the circumstances surrounding his use of maphack make it ok. That is also logically flawed, as the action of cheating is wrong reguardless of context. (Although, admittedly there is a philosophical discussion to be had on that topic.)

 

[Daemonaz]

How many actually PLAY the game? PvP aside, how many actually take a new char and play thru the way it was intended?

The vast majority of players do this: MF, trade, rush new chars so they can wear what they MF/traded for. Maphack is an efficient means to an end.

Is rushing chars illegal? No. Most peeps rush chars. Would you rather spend 45 minutes sitting around for a rush to finish, or 2 hrs? The choice is yours...

I've actually used the 'check other persons gear' feature to help facilitate trades w/ them. If they seem poorly geared and I have items I know would suit them better, I let them know.

I've done countless baal runs to lvl. How many peeps want the sorc to tele quickly to throne? MH facilitates that, and benefits everyone. I'm sure anyone involved in baal runs for lvling wont begrudge the mh sorc for time saved.

The flaw lies in the game itself. There is nothing dynamic about it EXCEPT for mfing. Thats why its so popular. And thats why you find players using mh. Few peeps enjoy finding out the door to Durance lvl 3 was in that last unchecked corner.

Feel free to cheat yourself but do not try to justify it here. It is cheating no matter how you twist or turn it.

I don't like it that people can see my gear, that's my personal business and not yours. You already show that you feel better than others because you think you can offer them stuff they supposedly need. What if they don't want to wear the same as everyone on bnet? That's their choice and not yours, nor is it your right to just look. If that would have been the case Blizzard would have added that feature themselves.

 

[Sein Schatten]

That's what I've gathered too: Reading mpq's cheating and everyone does it, so maphack is ok. Using Atma in single player is cheating and everyone does it, so maphack is ok. Using netstat to find dclone is cheating and everyone does it, so maphack is ok.

dredd has talked to me and i never said maphack is okay. i just said reading out the mpqs is cheating. you are not supposed to know what level the map has (well, on second thought blizz released the monster levels before 1.10 changed it all. so it might be okay.)

 

[Wolv]

I've seen someone say most people don't cheat. How many baal runs have you done where half the people in a public game go straight for the entrances to the next level? Its widespread.

Some of you see in black and white, and thats fine. I detest peeps who make hacked items (iths), dupers, and scammers. I have no moral dilemma using MH. I believe there are degrees to cheating. Just like there are reprehensible lies, and little white lies. MH is a little white lie. Until someone comes up w/ a valid argument as to lumping MH in w/ duping w/o the rigidity of 'its a cheat and thats it' you wont convince me to not use it, or to go to open b-net, which is an utter joke. I like the economy of closed, and I'm right there w/ all the other hard working mfers trying to hock my items to better myself.

I use mh to improve my chars. I don't use it to take advantage of anyone.

And as far as those who play the game like it is SUPPOSED to be played - consider yerself a small special interest group. I too enjoyed playing that way for a few weeks, but the lack of dynamics killed interest. I admire those that can play the game in its purity. I can't do it tho.

I'd challenge anyone here to play/observe me, and afterwards say I negatively affect them w/ mh. Some of the most helpful/generous peeps in the game use mh. But you purists would much rather condemn them than applaud them. Therein lies the problem in mh threads. Yes, its a cheat. When I use it, I am cheating. But many peeps deliberatley use it for positive ends. Making a blanket statement of 'U use maphack. U cheat. Get out' is always gonna cause flames.

No matter what, I respect all opinions here. If we all had the same thoughts, it would be a boring community

 

[Wolv]

You already show that you feel better than others because you think you can offer them stuff they supposedly need. What if they don't want to wear the same as everyone on bnet?

Yer telling me I enjoy feeling superior? Yer opinion of me as waaay off base. How about this - we are in a TRADING GAME - TRADING ITEMS. 9 times outta 10 they DO want the same equip as everyone else. Quit jumping to conclusions. If anything, its seems yer feelin a lil high n mighty yerself by being a judge of my character. Yer barking up the wrong tree here bud. I happen to be one of those guys who trades a lot, and sometimes gives items for free. I don't feel superior doin it. I do it to feel good. I think its refreshing to see someone giddy n happy w/ a cool item they got for free. Theres too much suspicion, scamming, and negativity in the trading game.

 

[Daemonaz]

Yer telling me I enjoy feeling superior? Yer opinion of me as waaay off base. How about this - we are in a TRADING GAME - TRADING ITEMS. 9 times outta 10 they DO want the same equip as everyone else. Quit jumping to conclusions. If anything, its seems yer feelin a lil high n mighty yerself by being a judge of my character. Yer barking up the wrong tree here bud. I happen to be one of those guys who trades a lot, and sometimes gives items for free. I don't feel superior doin it. I do it to feel good. I think its refreshing to see someone giddy n happy w/ a cool item they got for free. Theres too much suspicion, scamming, and negativity in the trading game.

That still does not give you the right to look at my equipment and thinking I NEED your stuff. You are assuming that everyone is alike on Bnet. You are highly generalizing people in your own image. STAY AWAY FROM MY INVENTORY. It nowhere says it is yours to look at. NOR does it say anywhere I am remotely interested in hearing you say, "You don't have a Shako I see, you NEED one and i HAPPEN TO HAVE it for trade!" Once more I say stay out of my inventory! Does a store owner check my pockets in store and then tells my I need a new wallet?!?! No he doesn't.

 

[Daemonaz]

Some of you see in black and white, and thats fine. I detest peeps who make hacked items (iths), dupers, and scammers. I have no moral dilemma using MH. I believe there are degrees to cheating. Just like there are reprehensible lies, and little white lies. MH is a little white lie. Until someone comes up w/ a valid argument as to lumping MH in w/ duping w/o the rigidity of 'its a cheat and thats it' you wont convince me to not use it, or to go to open b-net, which is an utter joke. I like the economy of closed, and I'm right there w/ all the other hard working mfers trying to hock my items to better myself.

There is no degree to cheating. You either cheat or you don't It's that simple. I don't like it when people try to say that we see everything black and white, that's just another way to justify that you are cheating.

 

[Mr Evil]

I've seen someone say most people don't cheat. How many baal runs have you done where half the people in a public game go straight for the entrances to the next level? Its widespread...

In my experience, most people do not go straight for the stairs. It's often none, and rarely more than one or two (in an eight player game). Several more will often follow them, but that doesn't mean they have maphack.

 

[Wolv]

Generalizing peeps in my own image? What the hell does that mean?

Anyway, I love how U quote me saying 'I see you need a shako - you NEED one'. U sure do have a skewed opinion of me.

Anyway, I'm not gonna justify myself to you. I see you are someone who, in life, always plays by the rules and frowns on those who don't.

Talk about 'Holier than thou'

Beware of being hypocritical......

And Mr. Evil - we must be playing different games. 9 outta 10 public baal runs have an mher in it...

 

[Daemonaz]

Generalizing peeps in my own image? What the hell does that mean?

Anyway, I love how U quote me saying 'I see you need a shako - you NEED one'. U sure do have a skewed opinion of me.

Anyway, I'm not gonna justify myself to you. I see you are someone who, in life, always plays by the rules and frowns on those who don't.

Talk about 'Holier than thou'

Beware of being hypocritical......

And Mr. Evil - we must be playing different games. 9 outta 10 public baal runs have an mher in it...

Ah yes I'm being hypocritical, of course. Fact is you cheat no matter how you try to justify it by giving items to those in need. (After fisrt checking their gear and determining they are noobs in need of help).

 

[Lord Chaos]

There is no degree to cheating. You either cheat or you don't It's that simple. I don't like it when people try to say that we see everything black and white, that's just another way to justify that you are cheating.

Ok, if its just black and white...then many of us might as well just go the full monty and dupe, cheat and hack like crazy until there's nothing left of D2.

Its like saying there's only black and white to breaking the law...its not, its also one big greyzone...some things are bad, some things are horrid, some things are despicable.

 

[Lord Chaos]

How many other maphackers do you think play exactly the same way as you do?

Missed that you had actually answered me...but yet again, it doesn't affect you.

But yes, I agree with you most maphackers don't play the same way I do...but people insist on putting us all under one brush anyway, so whats the point of even talking of these things when we might just make it completely black and white and us go off and *really* hurt battlenet.

Anyway, an alternate solution like I said several times would be to have maphack as a controlled visual tool (since its a moot point about Blizzard, they've stated they're not going to make anymore patches, so even if they wanted to, its not going to get added) instead of a rogue tool, that will most likely just get worse and worse with features I myself don't particularly care for....though from a realistic point of view I can see the point of the equipment viewer...how realistic is it that you cannot see what someone is wearing...what are you, blind?...but yes, I can also see that this could unbalance PvP, by letting you know what your opponent is wearing.

 

[Usufruct]

But yes, I agree with you most maphackers don't play the same way I do...but people insist on putting us all under one brush anyway, so whats the point of even talking of these things when we might just make it completely black and white and us go off and *really* hurt battlenet.

No offense, but people like you are a small price to pay for a maphack-free battle.net in my opinion.

It is black and white. One or the other. Zero or one. Don't try and compare this to real-life situations. This is a game. Cheating at any game is by moral definition wrong, and no cheaters should be allowed to play.

 

[Lord Chaos]

No offense, but people like you are a small price to pay for a maphack-free battle.net in my opinion.

It is black and white. One or the other. Zero or one. Don't try and compare this to real-life situations. This is a game. Cheating at any game is by moral definition wrong, and no cheaters should be allowed to play.

*shrugs*...it will never be maphack free, it will only be smarter and smarter and worse and worse. So in the end, with that attitude, you will lose..I don't care one way or the other, I played fine even on dupe infested D1 because I play in a closed circle of people, same with D2...but I do feel for the people who doesn't and therefor is affected, if Blizzard had used all the energy it used on maphack on the dupe and bot issues, they would most likely have been solved alot better by now.

And yes, it is not just black and white...or are you going to tell me that if you could only have ONE issue solved forever, and the other issue would persist forver...it would be a 50-50% chance of you either picking duping or maphack?

 

[Gorny1]

Man, this thread is a headache. Time to light it on fire or something.

 

[sasja]

I find it amazing what people are coming up with when confronted with their cheating:

"Talk about holier than thou "
"Your righteousness is dripping like sad venom"
"you purists"
"Some of the most helpful/generous peeps in the game use mh"
"(You're) Making a blanket statement of 'U use maphack. U cheat. Get out' "
etc.​

Take the last statement. In fact it is that simple. A very important concept in games is rules. By breaking them you stop playing that game. That you only took $100 from the bank while playing Monopoly with me will not make me change my mind about not wanting to play with you again. Cheating is cheating. I'm glad if you're nice persons in RL, but I'm meeting you in a gaming environment which I've joined for playing according to the rules. If I were looking for friends, that would be different. But I play Diablo to play the game. With others. According to the rules. That's what closed bnet is about, and pointing fingers at the people who remind you will not change that.

 

[Lord Chaos]

*shrugs*...then lets just agree that I don't care for you, and you don't care for me.

 

[Wuhan_Clan]

Just a quick question for Lord Chaos. If you and your circle of friends cut yourselves off from the rest of bnet, why don't you just play IP games with single player characters?

I'm going to say that your use of maphack is indeed more timid then the typical maphack user's but we can't be assured that every maphack user is this responsible. Your argument will only encourage others to think that its ok to use maphack. Maybe they'll follow your example, but more often then not, they won't.

The reason that people want to put a firm clamp on maphack is because we can't draw these fine lines between one maphack user and another. Blizzard can't tell if someone is going to use maphack for evil intentions or not. I remember you quoting that not all crimes in real life are black and white. Well, all crimes are crimes and although some may be more severe then others, all are punished, whether its the death sentence or a parking ticket. Real law allows different punishment for different degrees of crime. Diablo2 is not the real world and Blizzard dictates the law on battle.net. If Blizzard punishes all crimes on bnet equally (through account/cdkey bans or whatnot), that is their choice. We have to play by these rules because its their game we're playing.


One side-note that compares maphacking to other forms of cheating. Maphack on its most basic level allows you to save time to get from point A to B or to perform some task. Botting programs allow you to get from point A to point B and kill a certain boss (but you could have just easily done that by playing but it would just take you longer and you can't spend all day at the computer). Some hacked items allow you to kill things faster, but you could have killed those monsters had you done it with normal items but it would have taken longer. At a very basic level, all these forms of cheating were essentially the same, letting you do something more easily.

 

[Daemonaz]

Ok, if its just black and white...then many of us might as well just go the full monty and dupe, cheat and hack like crazy until there's nothing left of D2.

Its like saying there's only black and white to breaking the law...its not, its also one big greyzone...some things are bad, some things are horrid, some things are despicable.

I don't agree with that. Cheating is cheating. If you use MH you cheat. It's really pretty simple. It's just that all you cheaters are denying it.