Guest Article: Throwing a ball through a plot hole

Hell is a realm beyond the mortal realm, and thusly, beyond 'life' as we understand it's natural and inevitable cyclic nature to be. There is no decay, death, or even birth, as a natural consequence of existence.

If one existed in in a place and form where time was not only irrelevant to you, but to all those around you, one essentially has a 'timeless' stratum of that existence, or at least one in which time was marked by significantly less dramatic components than ours - and so is massively slower.

A person, entering Hell, may have no perception of what time is, apart from the notions they bring with them - how do they know how time flows in what is essentially a metaphysically disconnected realm? Therefore, a day may have passed, or 10, or a year...

As additional evidence for this, consider that all throughout the game, we are presented with a constant day/night cycle, reminding us of the passage of time fairly precisely. This vanishes in act 4.


How could Baal have been walking, talking, and shooting yellow lightning when his soul was in a chunk of rock far away?
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When?

He got released, began raising his demonic army from any monsters roaming the lands, and got D to begin opening portals from Hell itself to send in the bulk of reinforcements. At some point he figured it was either inconvenient or unwise to haev his soulstone sitting around the neck of some hapless, halfmad human, and went and got it.

This isn't even simple deduction, the game tells us as much.


Tyrael may be evil.

But I don't think this is how deduce it.
 
The most brilliant part of it was the calculating of time overlaps by the cinematics. Nice work.

But the rest, as the author said, was just speculation. Interesting speculation, but speculation.
 
Just a quick note:

Im sure most people have noticed Baal can construct and operate a doppleganger of himself, there is always the possibility that good ol' Baal could have both retrieved his soulstone AND begun the raising of his army/invasion of the barbarian lands at the same time :(
 
EggplantWizard said:
Im sure most people have noticed Baal can construct and operate a doppleganger of himself, there is always the possibility that good ol' Baal could have both retrieved his soulstone AND begun the raising of his army/invasion of the barbarian lands at the same time :(
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Good point! One that I never tot of.

Aniway..come to tink of it, i think i posted the chronological error thing in the other two threads of "Tyrael is evil"

But wadever the assumptions..the chronological error is still there. Marius had become an old man who lived in the asylum(?) for quite some time.. and baal has been looking for him for a very long time(Definitely more than a month).

The "flashback" scene of Baal as Tyrael was not a flashback at all. It was Marius error thinking that the cloaked figure was Tyrael.

Baal was away all these time and probably wanted to know what happened so he asked Marius what happened. But before he got his soulstone back... he was probably gathering his army of destruction(its a long time aniway)

Though another point i might like to re-emphasize was why was Diablo able to get into Tal-rasha's chamber without the staff and exit without breaking anything(A scene error?) And why was Tyrael not killed by the two when he was defeated? Or even then.. if he is so omnipotent... why was he not able to open a portal and get out of the chamber or kill duriel himself for the fact.
Also note that Marius did not need to smash any orbs to get into the DOH nor he was stopped by undead stygian dolls....although i had thought of an argument was that the three had not populate the chambers with the creatures yet.

And chronologically speaking.. baal should had already left Kurast long ago after diablo entered hell (U DID run a long way to DOH... unless u were rushed).. and he probably started collecting his Army of destruction then... and/or went looking for marius.
 
Well, Does anyone else notice that Marius is no longer as young as he was in the cinematic of act 3? In the cinematic after act 4 Marius is much older and is very gray....this does show that alot of time has passed from the end of Act 3 too the end of Act 4. I dont think Blizzard intended time too be different as referred by others in above posts....Why would they? Why would they make 1 month in hell 10 or so years in the mortal realm? I do believe that their maybe hidden message would be that Tyrael is an evil, IF they are planning to make a Diablo 3 it would be perfect and would make perfect sense, Tyrael would be just like Izual, or they mite not plan too make a Diablo 3 at all and leave it as Baal and that it was just a mistake. Either way we will all find out the answer if a Diablo 3 is made. If it isnt then most likely it was surely Baal as intended.
 
Innocentend said:
In the cinematic after act 4 Marius is much older and is very gray....this does show that alot of time has passed from the end of Act 3 too the end of Act 4.
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Actually, no it doesn't, or this would contradict the dialog. Marius says, "Look what the stone has done to me," as if the change in his appearance is quite unnatural. If enough years had passed for him to have naturally aged that much, this line wouldn't make sense...
 
Nysys said:
Now if the Pillar and bonds are only meant to keep something very evil there then why was Tyreal trapped?
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Because, tyreal and duriel were playing doctor in a rough sort of way and he was covering that up.
 
darklord_1984 said:
Marius had become an old man who lived in the asylum(?) for quite some time.. and baal has been looking for him for a very long time(Definitely more than a month
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He had become old because of the soulstone AND propably because he got to see the three prime evils, a sight no mortal should see (at least not of his weak calibre), we do not know how long time passed...Marius didn't go to hell, so maybe he was thrown into an asylum already after act 2 where he sees the 3 prime evils and propably wandered the country side as a babbling loonie.

Remember, the entire time of act 3 and 4 passes before Bhaal collects his soulstone, thats quite some time.

But before he got his soulstone back... he was probably gathering his army of destruction(its a long time aniway)
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He could be doing both at the same time.

Though another point i might like to re-emphasize was why was Diablo able to get into Tal-rasha's chamber without the staff and exit without breaking anything(A scene error?)
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The same reason he could enter the Durance of hate, he's a prime evil, no longer fully constrained by his soulstone.

And why was Tyrael not killed by the two when he was defeated?
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They can't kill him, he's an Archangel...but they could pervert the prison to contain him.

why was he not able to open a portal and get out of the chamber or kill duriel himself for the fact.
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He was trapped the same place Bhaal was...in time he could propably have freed himself...Duriel propably helped hold him...when you kill Duriel and break the prison, he is free again.

Also note that Marius did not need to smash any orbs to get into the DOH nor he was stopped by undead stygian dolls
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He was part of the prime evils plan all along, they most likely allowed him to walk freely through the passages....after all, why allow a stupid stygian doll to mess up centuries of planning?
 
Lord Chaos said:
He was part of the prime evils plan all along, they most likely allowed him to walk freely through the passages....after all, why allow a stupid stygian doll to mess up centuries of planning?
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Actually, there's a major timing clue here. Remember, in Act III, we arrive right on Diablo's tail -- we actually see the Dark Wanderer for a moment at the start of the act.

Here's my theory regarding Marius not needing to smash any orb: he didn't have to because we already did! First, we smash the compelling orb. Then we enter the Durance and fight our way down to Mephisto. AFTER we enter the Durance, Diablo and Baal enter and just stride to Mephisto unopposed (and thus gets there much faster than we do having to fight our way down). Maruis enters shortly after and manages to "tail" Diablo and Baal (probably with their knowledge, but he doesn't know that -- he's been tailing them, with their knowledge, since they emerged from Tal Rasha's tomb). When we show up and Mephisto announces "You're too late!" and laughs, this is occuring literally right after the cinematics. Marius, the little sneak, nearly passed on the stair as he fled while we came down to level 3...
 
Just a suggestion....
Could Marius be referring to the first time Diablo was killed because he never knew about it until he was told in the asylum? OR how do we know that HE isnt someone else.... like Mephisto, or the Hero from Diablo I? But just remember.... I havent extensively studied these cinematics so my theories could be completely wrong.
 
Hmm...in the cinematic where we find Baal and Diablo about too free Baal, How is it that Tyrael is there at exactly the right time and why does he say.. "That creature will not be set free not even by you" is he referring to Diablo or the hero that defeated Diablo?
 
Omg

I find this entire topic funny. :lol: How long did it take LOD to come out after Diablo 2? A couple of months right? Why do you people turn this simple factor into a big miss conception? Time 'in-game (as actually playing the game)' bears no relation to the plot. I mean come on! You make it sound like act 1 - 5 can actually be completed in a short time frame of 5-10 minutes in real time. (average time a of a good rush). This isn't the greates rpg, when you play the game time has nothing to do with the plot! Night and day is added to make the game more appealing. The only way to get you people to shut up is to make the game real time. I don't know about you but I would hate that! (Having to wait 3-5 months all over again each time I killed Diablo!!!!!). Point being, when you step through the portal to Harrogath....TIME GOES BY, simply put! No other explanation for it. Tyreal only says what he says so we don't have to wait the 3-5 months all over again and again.!!!!!!!! Jeez!!!!! :rant:

The story is short, simple, complete and VERY clear! You see the cinematic with Marius talking to Baal, or whoever (its irrelevant!) and gives him the stone. THEN you see the cinematic with baal wearing the worldstone.
 
Dreamsmith said:
Here's my theory regarding Marius not needing to smash any orb: he didn't have to because we already did! First, we smash the compelling orb. Then we enter the Durance and fight our way down to Mephisto. AFTER we enter the Durance, Diablo and Baal enter and just stride to Mephisto unopposed (and thus gets there much faster than we do having to fight our way down). Maruis enters shortly after and manages to "tail" Diablo and Baal (probably with their knowledge, but he doesn't know that -- he's been tailing them, with their knowledge, since they emerged from Tal Rasha's tomb). When we show up and Mephisto announces "You're too late!" and laughs, this is occuring literally right after the cinematics. Marius, the little sneak, nearly passed on the stair as he fled while we came down to level 3...
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That is a possibility..I can't find any flaws in this. But it is entirely possible that 2 prime evils could get in...and using their combined powers open the portal out.
 
Innocentend said:
Hmm...in the cinematic where we find Baal and Diablo about too free Baal, How is it that Tyrael is there at exactly the right time and why does he say.. "That creature will not be set free not even by you" is he referring to Diablo or the hero that defeated Diablo?
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He had propably been waiting for Diablo to show up...perhaps Diablo is able to shroud himself so Tyrial can't find him, or perhaps Tyrial is limited by heaven (who opposed intervention in the first place).

As for who he's refering to...dunno...could be either....but the way he fights Diablo would suggest the first.
 
I don't have much to say about the story per say, but i've always thought that the end of Diablo 2 and the destruction of the worldstone was a cheesy way to tie into a possible MMORPG Diablo3. Anyone remember the story behind Ultima Online? Evil wizard posseses a "world stone", the good warrior comes and destroys it but instead of making everything cool it splits the universe and creates millions of Shards each containing their own individual Ultima world. Or in this case Diablo world.
 
Obviously, the red portal at the end of act IV connects not only two points in space but also in time--like a wormhole.

For example, if a wormhole in space connects two seperate parts of the universe that are moving relative to each other (space as we know it is expanding, as a consequence of the Big Bang theory) at speeds close to the speed of light, time would literally appear to move at a different rate for people at the two different parts of the universe, and anyone who went through the wormhole would travel not only through space but also time.

Also, the wormhole created by Tyrael may itself be moving at a very fast speed through space-time, causing time to slow dow for the traveller who goes through it relative to the world of Sanctuary.

Now the soulstones can be explained simply by applying the principles of quantum mechanics--you see, when Baal's soul is trapped it is impossible to determine his velocity and location with equal precision...umm...well...
 
What the author wrote is pretty interesting, and speculations everyone else made about it are fine too. The thing is as a few people mentioned, baal has a clone. Granted, Baal has the soul stone and is in act 5 at the same time, but really, he could have just gotten the stone and made it back to Harrogath.

Yet there is Another problem with the plot, if you have starcraft broodwar and you watch the preview for Diablo II, then you'll see that the dark wanderer is heading east on a caravan and leaves the soul stone on the ground. So really, diablo could never have the soul stone, yet you destroy it at Hell forge anyhow.
 
:scratch: Let's see...

Granted, though nowhere have I ever seen any indication it was lost because of it. Let's say Marius escaped from the monastery heading east to the Rogue Encampment (I'ts not marked on any map, and the Portal in Stony Fields could lead anywhere, even to our world or time.).

At the road, he catches a glimmer of red, and there! Right in the middle of the road, a pretty, oh, so pretty stone... So compelling, yet so menacing... His hand closes around it, slowly, his body suddenly seized by a flood of heat as the mind of diablo closes around him. The Demon now knows who is to be his helper, and guides Marius' thoughts subtly, oh, so subtly, and strikes gold: A gullible human, perfect for his plans, willing to do anything to escape his nightmares...

Diablo guides the foolish mortal to a pub, where he can gather the fool up, and, by a display of weakness and terror, lures Marius into his wake.
 
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