Discussion Diablo IV Full Release Thoughts

Lord_Jaroh

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Feb 21, 2021
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Story
Mostly excellent, although too slow-paced, from a player-agency perspective. By this I mean regarding the in-game cutscenes, where there were points where you had to get your character to go from point a to point b, with nothing in between (monsters or exploration or vistas to look at), or to do some mundane action like “get me the book”, and you would have to walk 5 feet, click a book, walk 5 feet and click the character. These were things that should have happened automatically, without player input, as there was no reason to have the player take actions there. It simply was a lot of non-content that slowed the pacing of the story down. Otherwise the story was mostly delivered well, and was engaging enough to want to see it through to the end.

The boss fights were also mostly well done from a design aspect, although even with them comes the main gripe I have with all the boss fights in the game: there should have been more environmental/external challenges within the fights to make them interesting beyond playing “Dodge, Dodge, Run, Unload for a bit, repeat”. Having interesting challenges to overcome within the fights to make the fights both memorable and fun and engaging would have gone a long way.

My only real issue was the absolute ease of the game. There was zero challenge throughout the entire campaign. The only difficulty came from exploring the world at large to get to the next area, and then you would engage with the story again, and the challenge you were having simply disappeared. Often there were areas of traveling within the story, where you would be going from point a to point b, and there would be 1 or 2 “fights” (and I really hesitate calling them that) where there were just 3 normal enemies, which would die if you so much as looked in their general direction, and that was it. It just made the whole experience less than it could have been. It is not that I want things to be “uber difficult to play” or anything, but as it was, no fights in the campaign were even needed, for how effective they were.

Sidequests
While many sidequests were great from a lore-building perspective, many were not, and were little more than terrible MMO-brand “fetch quests”, where you were simply tasked with finding x amount of y items in a location or two, and the areas to go to were simply marked on the map and done. These were not needed at all, and did not add to the game in any way. It would have been much better to outline the whole area a quest was involved in, rather than the very specific spot/dungeon/or small radius circle that you needed to go to. I would like to have actually hunted for what I needed in the quest, as it would have been far more enjoyable completing it.

As well, it was a terrible decision to put any of these quests as available to do before the main questline was finished. They absolutely took away any sense of urgency the main story had. Here you are hurrying to chase down the big bad evil-doer of the day, and by the way, would you mind going and putting this amulet on a tree? The quests should have both shown up after the main quest had been completed (and would have made more sense following the storyline to begin with), as well as been more fleshed out. Less, longer, more involved quests would have been far more enjoyable.

The mini “hidden quests” where you picked up a random object from a drop and your character said “What is this?” which started either a quest or a kill x mobs in this area wasn’t too bad, but I wish there were both more of them, and more of a “reward” for doing them. I remember back in Diablo 1’s day where you would “unlock” more information (strengths/weaknesses, etc.) about various mobs as you killed more of them. Having rewards like that tied to these drops would be far more engaging.

There absolutely needs to be a “Completed Quests” tab in your journal, so you can look through and see both what you have done, as well as have a hint towards what you still need to do, for those completionists out there.

Quests should also give you more interesting rewards than just experience and a few items. Where is Charsi’s Imbue type quest? A quest to name an item? How about a repeatable quest to create a “set” of items that you can name after your character? Quests that give you skill points/paragon points/sockets above the normal allotted amount/anything to actually make them interesting to run beyond the few that are neat for the lore.

Music
I loved the music pretty much everywhere. Although there is no “Tristram” theme song, the entire game’s music was very well done, and every area at least felt unique from each other in that respect. It would be nice to have a “soundtrack” option to listen to the various tracks.

Sound
All I can say is good. Nothing really stands out for me, and I liked the return of the old dropping sounds when various items hit the ground.

Graphics
The graphics were excellently done, for the most part. The look of everything was extremely detailed and a sight to see. However, there are some issues. There are some skills where the graphical effects completely cover up anything you are supposed to see on the ground. This is bad from a gameplay perspective.

Immersiveness
This is one of my main gripes with Events and such. These take me right out of the game. And it isn’t big. I hate the giant treasure chest dropping out of nowhere upon a mission complete. It just removes me from the world and helps to remind me I am playing a game. There will be more about Events and such later.

UI
I hate not being able to turn off the button prompts at the bottom of the screen. I hate that the mini-map is so zoomed in to only be useful when hunting down various mobs I am looking for (which is terrible.) I actually love not having an Overlay map covering the screen, and would rather be focusing on the world I am engaging with, and seeing its beauty. However, not knowing where I am in relation to where I am going really hurts. Have the map more zoomed out, so that I can actually tell where in the area I am, and it would help a lot for having to bring up the map every 2 minutes to make sure I am going in the right direction.

MMO/online only-shift
The other players in the game really did not add anything to the gameplay itself. The game “feels” lonely, despite having others in the world engaging in the same content. I don’t mind the “lonely” feeling, as you are supposed to be the savior of Sanctuary, not one of many saviors, and I mainly play solo to begin with, unless I am teaming up with a couple of friends I know.

The shift to always being online was absolutely not needed for this game, and actively hurts it in many ways, from the lag, to stuttering, to disconnects, which are all especially harmful to those trying out hardcore, and on top of that, lineups to log in, server maintenance, etc. Considering the social aspects of this game are non-existent, having it be an “mmo-lite” in mindset really is not doing it any favors (nor do I want more MMO aspects creeping in! This game should remain as a solo-possible game).

Overworld
The non randomized, static overworld was not an idea I initially liked. However, it has grown on me, as long as Dungeons/Cellars (the instanced content) become more randomized and “deeper/longer/more involved”. I like running through the world, trying to find hidden areas with Lilith shrines etc, but I do wish there was “more” for the Exploration end of it. Actual hidden areas would be nice, places that aren’t revealed on the map, with treasure to find, or how about “semi-permanent” shrines (maybe Inarius shrines?) that give you some sort of buff, while you are logged in (maybe until you return to a town?), that are hidden randomly throughout the game that you need to find while playing? I don’t really like the “locked” treasure chests throughout the world (I find them a little too much an eyesore for the look of the game, and they are not nearly generous enough in rewards), but maybe they could be hidden better (and buffed) in order to make exploring more lucrative?

Traversing is more interesting via the different height levels and such with the “spacebar to crouch/climb/jump/etc” being a nice way to transition, however I wish there was more purpose to them. Otherwise they feel like a tacked on mechanic that doesn’t actually “do anything”. What if there were unmarked areas that if you were in the right spot, would light up the prompt, but the glowing foot trail is not there, and it is not marked on your map, until after you have found it. This would make hunting for things more interesting. Like Lilith shrines for example, or secret areas.

Skills and Skill Tree
The skill list is too small and limiting, no real choices or ways to differentiate your skills from others. As well, they are all “grouped” in a way that you are essentially taking the one skill that supports your “main” damage route, and a couple of defensive buffs and you’re done. There are no real “choices” in what to take. Except one, and that choice is a bad one. Do you use an “Ultimate” in your build or not. And honestly that either comes down to if you are comfortable having a skill on your bar that you are going to rarely use in comparison to your other skills or if you find an aspect that has something to do with the Ultimate. Ultimates should have their own allotted “button”, separate from the 4 you choose.

Resource Generator/Spender skillplay is terrible. It says something that I want to have mana potions back to use the skill I want to play with, rather than play with the skill they want you to use instead. The Resource Generators feel like garbage, especially for a skill that you are going to be using for pretty much your entire character’s lifetime. It would be nice if they were more customizable for your character. Maybe they could have a “socket” you could attack an item to (Gems, Aspects, “Runes”, whatever) that would let you change the skill in some way? The idea is to give many choices to people so they “want” to actually play with the skill, not be forced to because they “have” to.

Cooldown Timers. Timers suck. Timers especially suck when they are attached to the skills you want to use, rather than relying on your Resource management to use. As it is, the timers need to be a lot less, with less reliance on that specific item affix to make them manageable.

Character specific resources. Honestly, there was no reason for this. I am all for having different resources that characters can use in their own way, but they should be available to all of them, and have skills that utilize them in some way. One example: the fury resource could work exactly as it is now, a resource you build up, and it degenerates after a set amount of time. Characters can use this resource as a basis for various skills, or it can also be tied to Overpower damage as a percentage link. Have more Fury than your health (as a percentage)? You deal that much more damage as a percentage. Mana could still be the main resource for every character to use many skills, but you can also have some of the other resources available based on the skills, not the classes. This allows a person to create a character around a playstyle rather than be forced into a playstyle due to the resource of their chosen character. Right now, the resources are nothing but mana for each character, with a different regeneration/degen.

As well, boy would it be nice to actually be able to customize your character’s stats more so that you could choose to have more of that resource you need if you wanted…

I was disappointed in the Barbarian’s Expertise ability, in that there was nothing to it. Level up these abilities, and you are done. It gives you a small bonus to apply to your weapons if you aren’t using those weapons, and that is it. I had it done, all of the skills maxed, in my early 50s. The big thing was, they never felt like they impacted my character at all. There was no choice to it, and a very minor customization choice at the end. And once it was done, it was simply forget about it for the rest of the game.

Itemization and Item Hunt
All items feel the same, with the same number of affixes on each one. There is no real mystery or excitement when picking up an item.

Too many granular affixes with such a small pool allowed on an item means that only a few are desired/useful for any given character

Having the interesting Skill choices be on item affixes you need to find rather than on your skill tree feels bad, especially when it forces you into a skill/playstyle you didn’t want to play, or you continue to play a build that has no gear to support it. The Aspect system isn't bad per se, but just that many of the skill defining abilities being only via affixes rather than your tree, when the skill tree itself is so uninteresting in design is what feels bad.

Items not having any real differences in choosing to wear them/use them feels bad, from light armor vs. heavy armor or Wands vs. Swords, it just makes characters feel too bland. Also there are far too many items locked behind classes. This is simply garbage design.

Gems lacking any real purpose doesn’t help. They need something “more” to them, more interesting affixes upon different gear, more upgrades to make them more powerful, more gems types in general, they need something. How about slotting Gems into Skills to give them different addon effects? Adding fire to your sword strike or some such, so they weren’t limited to just items? They also need a separate gem tab?

Hunting aspects and gear feels bad right now. Easy solution: Dungeons give an aspect of the current level found, rather than always the lowest aspect. Maybe new dungeons open up for the aspects you have found that currently don't have a dungeon associated with them. This way when you replace a piece of gear, you don't have to also hope for a drop of the aspect you need to replace.

The stash is too small, especially for collectors of items.

The transmog options are also too small. Sacred/Ancestral items should also have a unique look to unlock. I unlocked my entire look by level 20ish, and have found nothing really new since on normal items or legendary items. I think this was to push people more towards the store, but the store itself is ridiculously overpriced for everything, so...

Salvaging should be from your character, not the blacksmith, at least for yellow and lower. Maybe you can improve a salvaging skill to be able to get more rare resources and such.

I wish you could have saddlebags for your horse so you can farm more items before having to return to town.

I wish your horse could gain in power to unlock faster speed/more sprinting "charges" (This should have been a stamina bar that can grow!)/stronger dismount attacks

I wish you could unlock more bags on yourself to be able to carry more.

What if there was a repeatable quest allowing you to take a legendary item and turn it into a “Unique” with your name on it? It would gain 1-3 Affixes, be buffed in some way, and get a Unique name tied to your character and its function and abilities. This would be repeatable, in that you could “reset” the 1-3 Affixes, or do another item, and maybe eventually, end up with a whole collection of items for your character to wear, maybe even having a quest to “create a set”, and have synergy bonuses? This would give you an item hunt that you were always hunting for cool gear to call your own. Having it repeatable would allow for characters to progress in something that feels like they are growing their character that is not leveling.

Dungeons
Dungeons all feel the same. And I am going to lump Cellars in with these, as they have the same problems. These are instanced locations. Diablo is (was) known for being the game that had the maps randomized, to promote replayability. The dungeons were especially so, for the most part. Being instanced, these dungeons should have no problem being more randomized. In the size of each floor. In depth of floors. In corridor designs. In “traps” and other extras. In the mechanics/activities to “unlock” the next floors. As designed, the dungeons are repetitive slogs, and after you have experienced them once, you really don’t want to do them again, especially since the unlock mechanics are so unfun, and they are far too often repeated. And since dungeons are the #1 activity that everyone is going to do over and over, having them so repetitive is bad. What I would like to see is dungeons that are both more different from each other to begin with, and also get larger/deeper as the difficulty increases. And a significant increase in randomization within the dungeon layouts, and a huge increase in number of “unlocking” mechanics for progression and randomization differences so they aren’t so repetitive to run.

Bosses
Bosses are not fun (and by bosses, I am referring to the ones you find at the end of dungeons). This comes less from the designs of the bosses themselves, and more from the trappings around them (although some of the mechanics around them are just “meh”, and too repetitive). They are all in the same kind of small, enclosed arenas that you are trapped in. There are no real environmental concerns to watch out for, other than any skills the bosses themselves use. So every fight essentially revolves around dodging a couple of times, and then hitting as much as you can. There are no interesting challenges to overcome that make the boss fights memorable or even neat to play.

Bosses should have a pool of attacks that they can draw from randomly. For example, they have 10 total special attacks, and they choose 3 separate ones from that group that they can use anytime they are faced, making each fight more unique. As well, each difficulty, they can get more attacks to use, so maybe on Nightmare they get 5 attacks, and on the highest they have 7, making the fights harder to having more attacks that you have to watch out for. Bosses having unique (and most importantly) playable mechanics to work through is interesting as well. It breaks up the fight to make it more than just about Dodge, Dodge, Wack, Run for a while until charges regain, repeat. Having different things you have to attack before you can hurt the boss to any realistic degree (not making them immune, however!), like killing the ritual performers before you can attack the boss, but instead, maybe having the ritual performers adding to damage or defense, making killing them a bonus for the fight.

Bosses should have a health bar that is not so predictable. Getting them through each “phase” of their bar drops the health globes, and makes them slightly “angrier”, so to speak, moving faster, having a new attack, hitting harder, etc. The problem is these phases are always the same length, and are always the same every time you face any particular boss, so once you know the patterns, you have nothing more to “learn” or watch out for when facing them.

If you are not going to have randomized dungeons, every dungeon should have a unique boss and environmental area to fight them in, so that every fight feels different. There should be quicksand, lava, wind that pushes you and makes it harder to travel in certain directions, etc. anything to make the fight more interesting to run.

Strongholds
Strongholds were interesting the first time they were run, being kind of a high level challenge for your character to beat, with the reward being either a repeatable “event” or a town. It would be nice if there were more of them throughout the world, and with a few more different mechanics to them. They are a bit basic after they have been beaten, bing nothing more than longer “Events”.

Monsters
Level Scaling sucks. In a power fantasy, the goal is to become stronger than the enemies so you can decimate them. Not having any areas where this is possible to do just feels bad. I don’t know if the solution is to radically lower basic enemy health (and up the density), but something needs to be done. I know the goal was to make every area feasible for everyone to visit, however it doesn’t work in practice (everyone just runs to dungeons anyway), and it makes leveling feel like a slog rather than fun.

Monsters all feel “samey”. There is a distinct lack of personality with them, and again, there seems to be nothing new and interesting to see later in the game. No new monsters showing up late in the game, no new attacks to watch out for.

I do like the Champion mechanics, in that they buff everyone around them and make you want to take out the champions quickly to make the rest of the fight easier. It makes you dive into mobs to get them. I do like that they aren’t noticeably difficult to take out compared to other mobs, and not just being damage sponges.

Elites however are an issue. The constant repetitiveness of their affixes, constant crowd control, and small pool that they have access to just make them feel terrible to fight.

Exploration
Lilith Shrines - Good, but having more different shrines to hunt for would be good as well. The issue is that there should have been less shrines you “needed” to find, and random locations that they could spawn at.

Buff Shrines - fun but don’t last long enough, and the mob density isn’t high enough to make them feel fun. The Greed one is especially bad, in that the amount of gold you get is laughably small from the bonus.

Other shrines - the “emote” shrines were interesting, and their bonuses do last for a decent time.

Cursed shrines are very good, as they make the gameplay more interesting, especially if you need that health shrine, and instead it spawns a bunch of monsters instead…

There should be other shrines to find that are more “temporary buffs that last for a playthrough” This is where the Elixirs should honestly have been dumped, as the Elixir mechanic itself is really lacking.

Events
Events honestly suck. They were interesting the first time you run into them, almost like mini-sidequests, however they are far too repetitive. Although there are different ones you can find, and the monsters that spawn for them are random, everything about them is too predictable. From the numbers of monsters, to the order that they spawn, to when elites arrive to the “boss” of the event, to the time the event runs, to the placement of all the “pieces” of the event, it is all the same. And to top it off, the giant chest that spawns from mid-air with a giant flash, it is just too much of an “arcadey” feeling mini-game. It would be nice if these had something “more” to their makeup, from randomization of the numbers of mobs to the placement of the parts of them, just to make them more different from each other, and make them feel neat to run into, beyond the way to gain obols. There also needs to be far more of them.

Mastery should also mean something. I would have another level that actually involves a challenge to do, to make the event “Mastery” actually mean something.

Tree of Whispers
I actually find the Tree of Whispers to be a much better bounty system than D3. It is a good, repeatable event with decent rewards at the end of it. I do think there are too many things to choose from to do, and too many small, repetitive ones (kill X monsters in an area, or kill X amount of Spiders etc), and it would be kind of neat if there were new ones to do.

It might almost make it more interesting if the mini-quests that are in the game were actually handed out by the Tree at the end. I honestly think the quests being after the main campaign would have been far better, and this would have been a perfect spot to have them. You could have different rewards for completing quests (maybe unique items or abilities/unlocks for your character) and make it a choice to complete quests or do the bounties.

Helltides
Helltides are interesting enough, but really only used for farming purposes. They feel more like a chore to do rather than something you choose to do because it is fun. Part of it is because of the unique resources you need to progress your items only being available during them, and the timed nature of them making them more of a “rush to do the thing” instead of an enjoyable event.

Legion Events
Neat idea, although far too predictable in what you need to do during them, as well as far too easy. They should scale for the number of players that are involved in them, at the very least.

World Bosses
Honestly terrible. Sure, they are neat to see, however to fight them isn’t fun. They have no real mechanics to the fight other than “dodge the attacks and find the safe spot” as they jump around being damage sponges. These above all else should have interesting environmental challenges to partake in. They occur in flat wide open, boring terrain. Yawn.

Nightmare Dungeons
What can I say that hasn’t already been said? These are just boring to run. Along with having all the issues as normal dungeons, they are just more of the same thing, only with more crowd control effects. They are not fun to repetitively run. Fixing dungeons as a whole would go a long way to helping them. I think the change to teleport to them actually makes the game worse. Sure, it’s convenient, but then you have essentially made the overworld and interacting with people redundant.

Paragon Board
This needs work. Character progression from 50-100 is just boring, with the majority of the boards simply being incremental stat buffs, or slight damage buffs, or slight defense buffs, etc. with a couple of interesting effects on them. +5 Stat is not interesting, nor is +10% damage. They need to be far more involved, with more interesting effects that players choose to progress their character with. Sockets in legendary powers to make them more interesting. Being able to “adjust” them, or modify them with unique effects from socketed items could add a lot to them. Having more powers to choose from on each board would be good (maybe, like your final “Passive” skill, you can only choose one on a board?). Hunting for boards as a drop could be interesting, with randomized board paths and makeups being a good endgame activity.

The Glyph hunt is a good start, but it needs work. Upgrading them is more of a chore to do, rather than a fun activity to get what you want, and that is mainly to do with the Nightmare Dungeon replayability, but also for the lack of interesting glyphs that really stand out. “More damage” is just not what people need, and will only lead to ever increasing numbers on the dials.

What if the Paragon board system revolved around hunting for nodes to actually build your own board? The would have the common stat/damage boosts, magic/legendary nodes for different elemental effects, skill modifiers, etc. all that you could tweak/level/change in some way, and would drop with randomized modifiers. This would give you something to build for your character that could occur while leveling, and it would give you an activity to hunt for.

Replayability
There just isn’t enough. The game is full of different activities. But all the activities are the same as the activities you have already experienced as you leveled through the campaign. There just isn’t enough new or unique to work towards. For a simple comparison, I want to use Disgaea as an example. It is a turn-based strategy rpg. It has a “campaign”, a main story that you run through, and gameplay revolving around unlocking various aspects to grow your character(s), as well as item hunts, class unlocking, advancing your skills, leveling your items, and your characters. It has level scaling, so the monsters you face are always at your level, but the powers and abilities you gain end up putting you miles above the competition. The fun comes from “optimization” of your skills, items, group etc, as well as the constant unlocking and leveling of different things.

There is nothing of that in Diablo IV. For a deep endgame, Diablo IV needs far more things to do, beyond just hunting for the next minor upgrade. It needs more customization that you control, from transmogs to find, to items to upgrade through different activities, to customizing your skills and skill layout, to different, and deeper, socketing. Hopefully the game gets that over time, but right now, the game is extremely shallow, and very limited by the choices the devs made in their implementation. We are in the wading pool, and can see the deep end over there, but we aren’t allowed in. We can only make up our own “games” to play in the shallow end, to make it feel fun, but we really want to dive off the high board, or slide down the waterslide. I am hoping the devs remove the barriers for us to get over there.
 
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There are a lot of fair points made here. Bosses, I feel the same about, I have never been a fan of dodging around a small room button mashing skills and know exactly what attack a boss is about to make next. Some of the boss fights I was just thinking "when will this ever end?".

If I remember correctly I wrote about mounts needing saddle bags for more storage. Sadly it has not materialised and that's probably because it would add another layer to inventory management.

I expect a lot of what is in the game now is going to change a LOT over the coming months and years. It's fine to get players started in the world but as you say, it needs changes to make choices meaningful and impactful.

Season 1 will at least give us a taste of the direction in which the game starts to move. I think there's a long way to go though and it's going to be all about patience while they work it out for players wanting to be in for the long haul.
 
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I am just hoping that they aren't going to concentrate on seasonal play and put the core game on the backburner. Seasonal play can be fun, but only if the core game systems can back it up.
 
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I would agree that it would have been better to offer another difficulty level higher than Veteran to more experienced players at the start of the game. Players who are brand new to the franchise, and there have been a ton, may not consider the campaign to be as blasé as this reviewer apparently does. However, there's not doubt that seasoned Diablo players would have enjoyed more of a challenge.

As far as it being a trerrible idea to make side quests avaiable during the campaign, there is the issue of the developers promoting this as the first Diablo game to have a non-linear campaign. Perhaps they over did it somewhat and it may have been nice to be able to toggle side quests on or off for those who wished to focus strictly on the campaign.

Agree completely that the most obvious ommission in the game was a Completed Quests tab in the quest journal.

I was also expecting a bit more nuance in this game when it comes to customizing the play style with skills. The skill tree is new and different enough compared to other Diablo games, but it still feels relatively plug and play. I recall MrLlamaSc also complaining about skill cooldowns. Either make a skill avialable or don't, but if you make it available then I shuld be able to cast it whenever I want provided I have enough resource to do so.

Most of the rest of the review essentially repeats the general theme of "this thing in the game needs to better, more interesting, more nuanced, more challenging, more varied, more immersive, more variable, more satisfying, more meaningful, etc., etc." In other words, the reviewer paints a picture of a thoroughly underdeveloped game, overall. I wouldn't hesitate to add any of those suggestions for improvement to my own wish list. At the same time, it leaves me with the general feeling I had during all of the closed an open betas, which was how much can we, or should we, expect at launch. More development would inevitably mean more development time. The question is, did we want to get the game now as it is, or would we have been happier waiting another five years or so to get a lot more of what we'd like? To that end I hope that Rush's forecast is correct about how the game is going to change a LOT over the coming months and years.
 
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Most of the rest of the review essentially repeats the general theme of "this thing in the game needs to better, more interesting, more nuanced, more challenging, more varied, more immersive, more variable, more satisfying, more meaningful, etc., etc." In other words, the reviewer paints a picture of a thoroughly underdeveloped game, overall.
Honest question, did the expectations of D4 get this high due to PoE and Lost Ark? Imo, D4 is deeper than D3 and D1, and arguably deeper than D2 if you count the quantity of systems, rather than the quality.

D2's skill trees and stats only being what I'd consider superior in the series, I'm not sure why ppl criticize D4's depth, both in regards to systems and content. It has the most endgame activities in the series. It has the deepest or 2nd deepest character progression in the series. Are we setting expectations based on the series or the genre?
 
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Honest question, did the expectations of D4 get this high due to PoE and Lost Ark? Imo, D4 is deeper than D3 and D1, and arguably deeper than D2 if you count the quantity of systems, rather than the quality.

D2's skill trees and stats only being what I'd consider superior in the series, I'm not sure why ppl criticize D4's depth, both in regards to systems and content. It has the most endgame activities in the series. It has the deepest or 2nd deepest character progression in the series. Are we setting expectations based on the series or the genre?
Honest question, did the expectations of D4 get this high due to PoE and Lost Ark? Imo, D4 is deeper than D3 and D1, and arguably deeper than D2 if you count the quantity of systems, rather than the quality.

D2's skill trees and stats only being what I'd consider superior in the series, I'm not sure why ppl criticize D4's depth, both in regards to systems and content. It has the most endgame activities in the series. It has the deepest or 2nd deepest character progression in the series. Are we setting expectations based on the series or the genre?
I had the same thought about Lost Ark and PoE.

Regarding Lost Ark, one thing that I thing some players forget is that it dropped in the West when the game was already four years old and at Tier 3. I suspect the game did not feel as deep during the first 6 to 12 months or so when it was in only Tier 1.

I haven't played PoE myself, but I've heard many gamers comment about there is so much to learn in that game, particularly when it comes to the skill tree and itemization, that it can be somewhat overwhelming.

Ultimately I think it is a bit unreasonable to expect as much from Diablo 4 right now based on the current status of either Lost Ark or PoE. Maybe if Blizzard was launching its first ever Diablo game it would be fair to expect more. However, given that they are also supporting D2R and DI, I think its best just to give D4 more time prior to passing final judgement.
 
Honest question, did the expectations of D4 get this high due to PoE and Lost Ark? Imo, D4 is deeper than D3 and D1, and arguably deeper than D2 if you count the quantity of systems, rather than the quality.

D2's skill trees and stats only being what I'd consider superior in the series, I'm not sure why ppl criticize D4's depth, both in regards to systems and content. It has the most endgame activities in the series. It has the deepest or 2nd deepest character progression in the series. Are we setting expectations based on the series or the genre?

The issue with Diablo IV's "endgame activities" is that they are exactly the same as the activities you have experienced for the entirety of the game to get there, with some, minor differences.

I would also argue that the character progression is fine, until level 50. The paragon board is terrible, but would have been acceptable had it "supplemented" your skill growth, instead of replacing it. If they had made the skill tree a bit deeper, allowed you to continue to gain skill points all the way to 100 (so you can further specialize skills), and a big thing for me, is move all of the granular affixes from items onto the board, I think it would go a long way to making progression feel more impactful.

The big issue with DIV's progression, is just like the items, that your power gain is so incremental to be nearly unnoticeable, and with the level scaling it just makes the game a slog to play, rather than fun.
 
I do agree about the level scaling. But I'm not sure how Blizz could've really done it any differently, besides the obviously of meatgating zones by level. But then you'd have to split 5 zones equally for 20 levels each?

I guess that actually can work. Peaks 1-20, Scosglen 21-40, Steppes 41-60, Howezar 61-80, Kehjistan 81+. But then you gotta think are the zones big enough to contain that much repeatable content to level if you skip campaign? Or how to fit ALL endgame content in Kehjistan? Maybe still have worldmap-wide endgame activies while having Kehjistant the focus of 81+ content.

...not sure how that'd all work w/ the campaign tho...ugh. Game design is hard. They say level scaling is "lazy", but hey, work smarter, not harder, right?
 
Work smarter, not harder...as long as the end product turns out as good either way. The current dungeon/boss design is entirely lazy, not smarter, and a massive regression from what came before as well as other games in the genre.
 
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