Chargeadin/Crusader PvM build

[GTA]

Chargeadin/Crusader PvM build

Well, after building a lvl80 zealtesladin and a lvl70ish Hammerdin, I decided to start over on a Crusader with a double handed weapon.

I need some help though and I have a question.

A few thoughts first.

1. This is by far the most fun build of the 3. Rather than just spamming hammers or endless clicking, this build requires some skill to use.

2. I honestly feel this is a perfectly viable solo hell build, even though I only just started so I'm on act3 NM at the moment

3. Crowd control isn't actually that bad, you just have to manouver properly and bounce around. Its not as good as either the hammer or holy shock builds, but its not as awful as some guides I read seem to think.

Anyway, onto the build and questions.

Charge, might and vigor need to be maxed, obviously. And I'm on this.

However, after that, I have a problem, physical immunes in hell. I read a bunch of guides, and all of them use fanat as the main aura to go with charge. Great against other players, but this isn't going to cut it against physical immunes.

So I was thinking of going with conviction instead. The lower defence should make up for any problems with AR, ( not like its an issue anyway with charge AR bonus ) but the lower resists is what I'm interested in.

The big question :

DOES CONVICTION LOWER PHYSICAL RESISTANCE, AND CAN IT REMOVE PHYSICAL IMMUNITY?

If so, happy days, its clobbering time. The lower physical resistance will boost my damage, and physical immunes will get mullered anyway, since most physical immunes ( spectres, doomcasters ) have low health, as long as their physical immunity is removed.

So what I'm looking at is

Charge 20
Vigor 20 ( preferred to might as it gives the same damage bonus but is a more useful skill for general play )
Might high ( not gonna say 20 because it'll take a back seat to maxing vigor and conviction, if it'll work on physical immunes )
Conviction 20

preqs etc.

probably redemption later for recovery, or I might stick some points into zeal for the few occasions when i get surrounded.

I won't be using a shield+holy shield, my other paladins did, and this build won't, because I want to go 2 handed for fun and max damage

If anyone could confirm or deny conviction lowering/removing physical, that'd be great. And I'd like to hear any other thoughts on the build as well.

Cheers.

 

[koeraokse]

conviction wont remove physical immunity and 2h crusader will probably have so low res that he will get killed easily by monsters that deal elemental dmg...

:cheesy:
*priit2

 

[GTA]

conviction wont remove physical immunity and 2h crusader will probably have so low res that he will get killed easily by monsters that deal elemental dmg...

:cheesy:
*priit2

It doesn't? sucky.

Firstly, resists, yes, gonna be a serious issue in Hell. However, there are other ways to get half decent resists without using a shield. They won't be maxed, like pally's with perfect diamond/um shields, but I should be able to get them high enough to survive. I guess I'll see.

Well, in that case, new question.

How should I tackle physical immunes with my Charger?

Items?
Sanctuary?

 

[kingdryland1]

Amplify damage will remove most physical immunes. Pure charger pvm,I have one in mind as well but not 2h

 

[GTA]

Amplify damage will remove most physical immunes. Pure charger pvm,I have one in mind as well but not 2h

Well, two reasons for 2h

1. Interesting weapons. After doing a few paladin builds, i've tried most of available weapons, and i'm bored of little swords, sceptres and the like. Trying something new keeps my interest up.

2. More damage, MUCH more damage.

The way I see it :

Charge multiplies damage, so an extra 50 damage from going 2h, even though it might not sound like much, could easily end up being over 1000 extra after all modifiers are taken into account.

Add to that the fact that with no shield, you essentially have an extra 20 points to spend on bumping damage, because the points are not going into Holy Shield.

Chances are you'll max 4 skills.

So 1h

20 charge
20 vigor
20 holy shield
20 fanat

2h

20 charge
20 vigor
20 might
20 fanat

maxing Might will give another 20 levels at 20% per level = 400% extra damage :thumbsup:

I suppose its personal preference, and while I agree that 1h+shield is far more sensible, its also far less fun. Maybe if this was my first pally build, i'd go 1h.

--------

on a side note, I've been looking around for decent Crusader build guides, and I can't seem to find any. any suggestions/links?

 

[kingdryland1]

Fully synergized charge with fanaticism,200ish str.an ethereal botd thunder maul and fortitude ,and 65% deadly strike from guil/gore/highlords would give a jaw dropping 32K average dmg, bad resists and no block. (I' m not sure if I got the damage bonus from synergies correct).

Same gear/skills but with grief zerk/hoz shield would give a good 17k aver. damage possibly good resists and max block...Much better for pvm.

My 2 cents? If you want a funny 2h build make a fanatic zealot 20 zeal 20sacrifice 20 fanaticism rest somewhere else ,it opens some possibilities (i m planning this atm). You can still enjoy of the 2h weapons of the game (wouldn't obedience for example be great?)

 

[GTA]

Fully synergized charge with fanaticism,200ish str.an ethereal botd thunder maul and fortitude ,and 65% deadly strike from guil/gore/highlords would give a jaw dropping 32K average dmg, bad resists and no block. (I' m not sure if I got the damage bonus from synergies correct).

Same gear/skills but with grief zerk/hoz shield would give a good 17k aver. damage possibly good resists and max block...Much better for pvm.

My 2 cents? If you want a funny 2h build make a fanatic zealot 20 zeal 20sacrifice 20 fanaticism rest somewhere else ,it opens some possibilities (i m planning this atm). You can still enjoy of the 2h weapons of the game (wouldn't obedience for example be great?)

Cheers for doing the maths :thumbsup:

32K sounds pretty sweet to me 17K is still a daft amount of damage, obviously, and the block would be great. But as you said, this is 2h simply because its more fun, in my opinion anyway.

I've got reasonable resists at the moment, from armour, boots, belt, rings and amulet. But they're nowhere near what I was getting with my tesladin/hammerdin. And my defence is much much lower, mainly from lack of holy shield ( both my other pally builds also had exile shields, so I got the defiance bonus as well )

That said though, I'm not dying any more frequently. Progress is slower because I have to keep backing away and chargeing back in, but i'm getting there slowly and surely.

Most of my kills are 1 hit. Even the nightmare council, brem etc only take 3 hits each, max, and since i can get all 3 hits in about 0.5 seconds, it beats the hell out of standing next to them for a while zealing away!

One thing I am noticing is that some sections of the game are ridiculously easy with this build, and others are so annoying its unreal.

Eg. maggot lair, arcane sanctuary and other sections made up mainly of narrow passages are so easy its just funny. just keep charging in a straight line and anything on the line dies.

Also, and large monsters ( as in physically large on the screen ) are easy meat. They're so easy to target that its impossible to miss. Sand raiders, gorebellies, pit lords, hulks etc die really quickly.

However, sections like the flayer jungle.... ARRRRRG, so many fast moving, small enemies! they're harder to target because of their small size, and so fast they can surround you in seconds.

And the less said about damn stygian dolls the better. With no block and lower defence, they hit roughly 60% of the time, and do huge damage. almost impossible to hit as well, because they're so fast and so tiny.

Bosses are just a joke, with the possible exception of Duriel and his damn freeze thing. Charge in, run out, repeat for about 30 seconds, boss dead. I killed nightmare Andy while she was still talking. Normal Diablo dropped in 30 seconds or so, but getting to him is obviously annoying. Baal was even quicker, as I got him locked in a corner and he didn't/couldn't teleport.

Its an interesting experience, hugely different style of play than any other build I know of ( maybe leap attack barb? ) And if you've done all the cookie cutter pally builds, this is well worth a go.

I considered the 2h zeal fanat build, but I was a little turned off by the similarity to my tesladin. I'd be running in, getting suurounded, pounding out huge damage really quick, then on to the next group of monsters. I wanted something different.

Now I just need to find a 4-6 socket axe

In the mean time, my physical immune problem is solved by a Ptopaz and a Psapphires and a Flawless Emerald in my secondary maul. Not an ideal solution, but it'll have to do for now.

I doubt i'll be able to get botd ( zod ouch ), but I'm hoping for some IK kit, or make a doom or even better, famine axe.

 

[LordOfDesttructtion]

Yes this defenitely seems like an interesting build. I've been thinking about it for a while now and will start one soon. Thing is I find charge awesome(minus the occasional bug), only thing I'm worried about is how viable in hell he would be. Because lets face it, Hell is damn hard. Something I was thinking of doing is putting a good 1h elemental weapon + shield on switch, like for example the Rune Master axe, for when the going gets really rough. Rest of the time when its manageable using a powerful 2h weapon like an upped bonesnap. As for the aura I'm not sure. Fanaticism seems slightly wasted since ias is irrelevant here. Conviction also seems wasted as your AR will be so high you wont really need to lower defense. Tough choice, but I guess I'm leaning more towards Fanaticism because as a charger u really need to make every hit count. Anyone out there have experience with a charger 2H in Hell? Is it doable?

 

[Bladewind]

My 2 cents? If you want a funny 2h build make a fanatic zealot 20 zeal 20sacrifice 20 fanaticism rest somewhere else ,it opens some possibilities (i m planning this atm). You can still enjoy of the 2h weapons of the game (wouldn't obedience for example be great?)

http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot0434lo.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot0449mh.jpg


Yup he is alot of fun, currently still stuck in norm but he basically mows down most things with 1 blow even (cows too) with 6 to 8 players around. I'm having trouble with resist (cant get all maxed..most are 70ish) though and thus intending to stay longer to find and stack on resist charms.

I still could not resist the tempation not to add Holy shield though, there are times where resist and defence is more important than huge damage.

 

[GTA]

Yes this defenitely seems like an interesting build. I've been thinking about it for a while now and will start one soon. Thing is I find charge awesome(minus the occasional bug), only thing I'm worried about is how viable in hell he would be. Because lets face it, Hell is damn hard. Something I was thinking of doing is putting a good 1h elemental weapon + shield on switch, like for example the Rune Master axe, for when the going gets really rough. Rest of the time when its manageable using a powerful 2h weapon like an upped bonesnap. As for the aura I'm not sure. Fanaticism seems slightly wasted since ias is irrelevant here. Conviction also seems wasted as your AR will be so high you wont really need to lower defense. Tough choice, but I guess I'm leaning more towards Fanaticism because as a charger u really need to make every hit count. Anyone out there have experience with a charger 2H in Hell? Is it doable?

Okay, Hell is tough, but it is certainly doable. I'm halfway through act 1 Hell now. The only difference is that because you have to back away all the time, progress is slower, but its worth it for boss killing ( NM baal, still a 30 second joke )

I made my final aura choice a while ago, and i'm maxing it at the moment. Conviction. Yes, this is possibly a wierd choice, but bear with me.

Physical immunes will start being a huge problem in Hell, and I want something to take them out. I don't want to have to drop points into vengeance or holy whatever, because it'd weaken my charge.

So I decided to get a weapon and charms that add elemental damage and then use conviction all the time. First of all, you'll never miss, with AR bonuses from charge, and the -95% defence from conviction, you'll score every time.

With a good weapon and charms, you're doing 3-5 types of non-physical damage, and all enemy resists will be -150%. So if you come accross a physical immune ( assuming its just a physical immune ), you'll be doing 4 types of damage, at say 250 average each ( famine/IK and some charms ) and for 3 of those types of damage, enemy resistance is -150% and for the other its probably 0. Thats going to give well over 1000 damage per hit no problem. Most physical immunes don't have huge health to start with, so it should be okay

Good choices I suppose would be the IK maul with the extra bonuses from having more IK kit, famine, or if you're seriously poor, gem up for elemental.

As far as I can see, this is the only way to make a pure charger into a viable solo Hell build ( in a group just get a necro to cast amplify damage ad you're set ) I'll keep you informed of my Hell progress, I'm writing a guide as I go along.

EDIT - I also considered the thorns route. Yes, its normally useless, but thats only because most paladins have a very high defence and max block, so they don't get hit and don't return damage. This build gets hit really quite often, especially, as I said, but small annoying monsters like dolls. High level thorns would take care of them really easily I think. Its worth looking into.

 

[Bladewind]

Heh the last thing you will want is to have undead dolls exploding near you... Those hurt.

 

[LordOfDesttructtion]

Good points. Although it seems your choice of aura is aimed to dispatch physical immunes, and while there are plenty of them in Hell, they represent a minority of the monster population. I can see however how this can be useful against other monsters as well, with most of them in Hell having at least resistance to one element.

Hmmm...the way I like to do my builds is to have my characters specialized/synergized. For instance my avenger is going to be using conviction as his main aura, and this seems like it's really the most logical choice for that build. Even without reading any guides, I think if you take the time to read the skill descriptions and play the game a little, you will agree that it's simply the most logical aura choice if you want to capitalize on the already huge elemental damage that he will be dealing. Well(and I think this is what makes the charger interesting), there doesn't seem to be an "obvious aura choice" for the charger.

Now you mentioned that because of conviction's defense reduction, you will always hit. Reletively the same thing can be said about fanaticism because of the increase in AR. So you are mainly choosing conviction over fanaticism because of how it decreases enemy resistances. However, if I'm not mistaken, charge's +%damage only applies to physical damage and it will not increase the elemental damage from your weapon. So basically, my point is that conviction's enemy resistance decrease is something that will boost damage from whatever elemental charms you have, or whatever elemental damage on your weapon, and this has nothing to do with the charge skill. It just seems like fanaticism would have a more "direct" impact on charge.

Anyways, this is not to say that you made a wrong choice, as conviction is an amazing aura, whichever way you look at it(especially in parties). I'm just digging deeper here to see if there's more of an obvious choice. Good luck with your progress.

 

[GTA]

You're spot on.

Conviction does nothing to my charge physical damage, all it does is increase my chaces to hit, which works the same as the AR increase from fanat, and increased my elemental damage from weapon and charms.

You mentioned an obvious choice aura for a pure charger, well, I guess its fanat, because if you're going for pure physical damage, then its the best thing going. the increased attack speed also helps if you get suurounded, which happens every so often. At this point, you could put a point into zeal, let +skills take it up to 5 hits, and have flail and sheild on switch to deal with getting suurounded.

I'm thinking about trying this at the moment, just for annoying situations where you can't retreat and charge back in.

However, as you said, looking deeper, conviction makes the build a little more sensible, because with fanat, you simply cannot handle physical immunes. So you've got 2 choices, either take them down slower with elemental from charms/weapons, which make playing hell without uber gear a pain, or go the conviction route.

Anyway, i've carried on, and have a few more thoughts on the build.

1. If your charger gets hit by a charge, eg from a claw viper or returned, then if you don't move before you next charge in, then you'll charge backwards!

when you first notice this, its really annoying, but once you get used to it, its not a huge problem, just move a very little amount, and then charge in normally.

2. Range of weapon is hugely important. A charger wants as short a range weapon as possible. The reason for this is that when you charge in, range doesn't matter. However, when you hit an enemy, and want to move back and charge in again, the longer the range of your weapon, the further back you have to move before you can charge again. With longer range swords and axes, you'll find that all too often, you turn around to charge back in, and instead you'll make your usually feeble normal attack, because the enemy is still in range.

3. Merc choice. Ranged, with freeze. I use an act 3 ironwolf. Get them a great shield, and big armour and helm for defence. Their weapon doesn't matter. I stand back, let him freeze the enemies, then charge in and wipe them out.

MAYBE possible to combat physical immunes with the merc alone. I'm looking into this.

4. Light radius. Normally ignored to a certain extent, but for the charger, hugely important. You can only target enemies you can see, so extending your light radius is basically extending the range of your attack. At the moment, I have a +5 light radius rare ring, which does the trick, but I keep finding better rings, with better stats except for the +LR, and I can't use them because LR is so important.

5. This build is the LORD OF LEECH! Its unreal! overall, I've got a lot of dual leech kit, and even with the penalties on leech in NM and Hell, I'm finding that a single charge will refill both health and mana almost fully.

mana leech is hugely important at the start of the build, when mana is low ( obviously no points invested in energy ) taking damage high enough and having enough mana leech to cover the 9 mana cost of charging is really really useful. later on, not so much, as even 1% leech would easily recover 9 mana.

Hope that helps anyone else thinking of trying this build.

EDIT - btw, another aura that would help the build is certainly holy freeze. It'd combat physical immunes, ( I think you'd probably encounter less than 3 PI and CI monsters on a hell run ) roughly the same number any build is gonna have to run away from, including hammerdins. It'd also slow everything down for easy targetting.

Certainly worth looking into as an alternative to fanat or conviction. I've gone off the thorns idea a little.

I feel like I'm getting somewhere near a viable Hell build. Its just really hard to know what skills to go for unless you play this build a lot, notice problems then try to solve them. Its not immediatly obvious how the build will play just from looking at the skill tree.

 

[GTA]

Okay, things are not going well!

I'm on hell act 2, and things are going wrong. I'm no longer getting 1 hit kills, and my merc is dying all the time.

I'm working on the problem, but any suggestions would be welcome.

If I had to guess, I think this is the time when really good gear would make all the difference, without it, all kinds of issues.

 

[GTA]

Okay, I rebuilt ( using an editor on non-battlenet ) and took him through Hell.

And here it is, the ONLY viable solo-hell, no merc, 2h charger build possible without super gear. ( good gear, not super gear )

I'll get right to the point, the key is holy freeze. I just can't find any way of doing a decent charge build without it. The slowing effect is what the build needs to function.

It doesn't rely on cold damage, except for physical immunes, so no need to max cold resist. The radius of slowing is far more vital. Also, we're trying to avoid large groups, so smashing up corpses so they can't be revivied is seriously important. Unravellers, shamens and the large groups they bring with them will be a lot easier to tackle this way.

Final skills

20 Charge
20 Might
20 Vigor
20 Holy Freeze
preqs
Lots of Sanctuary

Dex IS important, we've got no fanat bonus to AR, only charge, so Dex needs points. Not a huge amount, but its needed. A basic guide to stat point distribution would be to pump strength until each equipment point is reached, eg 70 ish for great axe, 99 for great maul, as you hit the levels where you can find/buy them.

Between these levels, vitality and dex fairly equally.

Yes, I know the normal advice is that vitality gets every point possible, but you can't afford to miss with this build, so dex needs some attention.

-----------------------

Skills.

Low levels ( 1-30 )

Charge should be pushed up first, damage goes up 25% per level, rather than 20% for the synergies, so no points into might or vigor until charge is maxed.

Occasionally, put points into holy freeze. I'd reccomend a 3:1 ratio in favour of charge; for every 4 levels you go up, 3 points into charge, 1 point into holy freeze.

Once charge is maxed, keep pushing holy freeze.

Medium Levels ( 31-75 )

Charge is maxed by now, and holy freeze is on its way. While you're maxing freeze, your charge will be getting weaker and weaker. 1 hit kills won't happen as often, and you'll get very very annoyed.

Once HF is up to about 15, the radius is big enough. Get the preqs for vigor and then max it.

Vigor is far more useful than might, if only for exploring. So it gets maxed first. Both synergies add the same damage, 20%, so Might can wait.

After vigor, max HF.

By the time you go into hell, you should have 20 Charge, 20 Vigor, 20 HF, AT LEAST. I'd reccommend not going to Hell with this build until lvl 80+

High levels ( 75+ )

Now its just might, might and more might. Max it.

Now the only thing to really do it plough points into salvation. It'll help HF a little, but more than that, its really useful for the times when you REALLY need resists. And you will, trust me.

In a lot of places, especially Diablo's sanctury, you'll need the resist help. Flick HF on, slow everyone down, then fight with sanc on. When the monsters come out of your freeze, flick back to HF for one tick, and repeat.

---------------------

Equipment

As stated in previous posts basically.

mana leech
light radius
big weapon damage
RESISTS, and lots of them
+skills
high defence armour, helm, belt and boots.
+AR
CBF ( vital )

----------------------

Final Thoughts

Not bad, not bad at all. Earlier issues resolved fairly simply with HF. Little monsters much easier to hit, physical immunes easier to handle, sorted AR problems without fanat. Crowd control much improved, again because of HF ( if you can't fight a crowd, stop the crowd getting anywhere near you )

Yup, this is the one. Try it.

:clap:

 

[Xiamet]

Sounds like an interesting build...

I'm also thinking of a 2H Sword Pally build, but I was considering going the Fanat/Zeal route, and having a 1h/shield on the switch for Phys immunes...maybe Baranar's/Tiamat's etc.

I know most 1.10 runewords make alot of the available uniques seem obsolete, but for a budget build, Cloudcrack's not bad, and Swordguard's actually pretty impresive for a 2H sword. Resists, huge def bonus, FHR and decent 2h damage. Upgrading this one might make a pretty viable weapon for hell.

Then there's Polearms, of which Reaper's is definitely worth considering, especially with the chance to decrepify. But I like the idea of a 2h Sword weilding pally better...the polearm can go on the merc, along with the HF aura..

alot of possibilities...makes me want to start one now...

-X

 

[GTA]

Sounds like an interesting build...

I'm also thinking of a 2H Sword Pally build, but I was considering going the Fanat/Zeal route, and having a 1h/shield on the switch for Phys immunes...maybe Baranar's/Tiamat's etc.

I know most 1.10 runewords make alot of the available uniques seem obsolete, but for a budget build, Cloudcrack's not bad, and Swordguard's actually pretty impresive for a 2H sword. Resists, huge def bonus, FHR and decent 2h damage. Upgrading this one might make a pretty viable weapon for hell.

Then there's Polearms, of which Reaper's is definitely worth considering, especially with the chance to decrepify. But I like the idea of a 2h Sword weilding pally better...the polearm can go on the merc, along with the HF aura..

alot of possibilities...makes me want to start one now...

-X

Sword is NOT the way to go with a charger.

The range is too great, you'll find running back and charging in too hard. I'd love to get a decent unique sword and try it, but I was getting far more damage and less range from runed mauls.

By all means, give it a go, but I think you'll run into the same problems I did.

I know I'm backpedalling a bit saying this, but post lvl 90, 1h charger with holy shield could become a death machine. I'm seriously considering it, and i'm fairly sure it'd be great.

You'd solve all resist issues, take much less damage, it might be boring, but far easier and MUCH faster progress.

If you're looking for something to match a tesla/hammer build for killing power, it has to be 1h, sadly.

I'd love someone to try this on battlenet and report back.

 

[Bladewind]

Well he is going the Zeal/fanat route with the big sword, that is when range matters. Remember you can't block to save your life, so long range hard hitter is essential.

You must always land the first hit !

 

[sir goatscelot]

Hmm..if I saw this thread earlier, I could have saved you some time and mentioned that hf was the way to go lol

Frost Crusaders are fun indeed. You can also taylor a merc of choice with reapers for more crowd control and dmg. Also, a good one handed choice is fleshripper as it has a range of one and other tastey mods..eth would be in the 300-350 dmg range

If you had to go 2 handed, then most of those weapons fall in to range 3 or more which as you have found out, is not the best for charge. If I had to go 2 hand, then I would tend to go for spear class only becuse they look cool. I am not sure, but I think that tridents ar range 3 but it may be 4. If it's 3 then that leaves some cool options with runewords etc.

Btw, most 2 hand swords fall in to range 3 which also is the range for mauls.. I think the legend swords and their normal and exceptional versions are range 2..but please do check to make sure

Just checked weapon ranges and I was way off..the reg maul is range 2..great maul is range 3..tridents are range 4.., and all 2 handed swords are range 3 . Sorry about that There are so many choices for range 1 weapon that can be looked at.

 

[GTA]

Well he is going the Zeal/fanat route with the big sword, that is when range matters. Remember you can't block to save your life, so long range hard hitter is essential.

You must always land the first hit !

range won't help there. we're not talking zealot, we're talking charge. The first hit is ALWAYS yours with this build, its about having the skill to crowd control with it.