"Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

[Darker Realm]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Bone is an excellent Runeword for its price / performance ratio. Compared to Myth (Barbarian) and Principle (Paladin), which are useless, Bone is useable enough to suit any Necromancer class before moving to Enigma.

If you make Bone in a crappy suit of armor, which I am assuming you have, you will get a very crappy Bone; it depends the base armor. A Dusk, Wyrmhide, or Wire Fleece Bone would be very competitive to many other caster-class armors.

In actually all of the 1.11 Runewords do not have a ton of attributes. So when you say that they are poor in quality, that is a subjective statement.

 

[MichelRPG]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

I havent made the Bone just yet. I reconsidered my options a bit and well...

I already cleared hell. My skeletons are already able to defeat baal, diablo, etc etc without dying (in fact, the only thing that kills them is either Iron Maiden, or the glitched tomb viper poison). I dont really need bone for either the res or + to skills..... So I'm just keeping my current armor (A Skullders armor with 700+ def).

 

[jel]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Depending on your skill level you can complete the game "naked". If you don't really need the comfort from bone, then I agree, why make it?

 

[AnimeCraze]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

I will take vipermagi over it anyday. Sure, it's 1 less skill, but the FCR is worth it for many things, including CEing bodies in Nilk's place. It's also far, far cheaper.

 

[MichelRPG]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Well, after long consideration I decided to put a socket in my Boneflame shield (necro shield) since I wont ever trade that anyway, for the extra res, and I socketed my mercs Guardian Angel for an Um as well (which gives him 84 allres). I believe that ultimately ended to be a better purpose for those two ums. I almost never die except for gloams or horrible unique combinations (or auras in large groups) so this only increases survival rates for me. I can always trade the Skullders for something else in the end, but with a 14 allres ring, a maras amulet (found earlier), a 45 allres boneflame, and lord knows how many res charms I have... my res in hell is now 75% for fire, cold, lightning, and 24 for poison (who needs poison protection really? I have a 50hp tick-healing prayer merc...). I was able to take off my 12allres ring and put on a dwarfstar for more fire absorb .

Basically, I'm glad I didn't take Bone. For some people this runeword may be good, but I believe this was a more logical approach considering my playing style and weaknesses. So I give up a +1 skills increase... I can live with that if it means having more normal def and 110% more MF.

 

[Darker Realm]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Depending on your skill level you can complete the game "naked".

Anyone can complete the game with a cracked leather armor with a ton of determination and evasive gameplay, but to complete the game smoothly and quickly, more +Skills for damage and endurance (defense, life, resistances) will ultimately make the game more playable.

If FCR is a limiting factor, Magefists, Trang Gloves, 2 x FCR Rings and a 10% +2 Skill Amulet will more than compensate for the lost cast speed.

Even if players are well-stocked in resists from a perfect set of charms, Mercenaries can benefit from such an armor and since they get hit often just like Golems, they will be casting Bone Armor over and over.

Finally, a Bone IG (30% All Resists) + enough Base points in SR (~70% All Resists Target) will make a Golem that will cast Bone Armor repeatedly. Golems, to our knowledge, are only two steps short of invincibility. First, they can be downed with enough projectile fire from elementals. Second, if they are hit too often they will break. Bone Armor can change the way monsters deal damage, and the Golem will regenerate as they . Probably useful for tanking / some kind of specialized Thorns / IM build.

Bone is full of uses and is highly dependent on play style and other gear in possession. If a player wants to MF, another armor will be a better choice (Skulders / Enigma).

 

[jel]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Anyone can complete the game with a cracked leather armor with a ton of determination and evasive gameplay, but to complete the game smoothly and quickly, more +Skills for damage and endurance (defense, life, resistances) will ultimately make the game more playable.

Yep I agree, it depends very much on the person who's playing, what they like the game to be like. Though the thing for a necromancer is if you compared very class as naked and used them to your best ability, the necromancer would most likely be the safest build to play by far.

First, they can be downed with enough projectile fire from elementals. Second, if they are hit too often they will break. Bone Armor can change the way monsters deal damage, and the Golem will regenerate as they .

I don't understand this, are you saying that an elemental immune golem still goes down if it is hit with to many 0 damage attacks?

AFAIK a golem can only be elemental immune, but never physical or magic immune, as the golem can't block, the minions that comes closest to physical immunity, though impossible with the amount of +skills available in the game, are shadows.

 

[MichelRPG]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Finally, a Bone IG (30% All Resists) + enough Base points in SR (~70% All Resists Target) will make a Golem that will cast Bone Armor repeatedly. Golems, to our knowledge, are only two steps short of invincibility. First, they can be downed with enough projectile fire from elementals. Second, if they are hit too often they will break. Bone Armor can change the way monsters deal damage, and the Golem will regenerate as they . Probably useful for tanking / some kind of specialized Thorns / IM build.

I like iron golems, but I am definitely NOT going to use a 2x Um runeword for that. As cool as it sounds, my golems tend to poof quite a lot if it gets stuck and I dont notice it. my SR is at around... 65 I think (1 base point and a LOT of + to skills). If I want to give him a lot of resists, I'll just give him a pally shield . And he doesnt get targeted that often, there's usually (myself not included) 38 other targets around him.

 

[Chairnick]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Keep the skullders, I'd take MF over 1 skillpoint anyday. You don't have to worry about res and def if you are a bit more careful anyways, so why bother? MF on the other hand is a great way of getting stuff that you can ultimately trade for that CoH or nigma you want.

 

[MichelRPG]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

I find enigma to be useful, but overrated. the teleport is a nice function, but with the necromancer I like taking my time. My res is maxed except poison, I have a rather high amount of + to skills already, my prayer/insight merc keeps me and my minions alive as well as making sure I never run out of mana for CE, and my physical defense is now at 1700-something. Not to mention, unless there is lightning or piercing attacks involved, chances are really low ANYTHING hits me with 40 other targets around me .

 

[Darker Realm]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Hiding behind minions do not solve the basic issue of resistances and defense. Lightning-Enchanted Souls can shoot through all of the summons right to the summoner in WSKL2. Also, it takes very little for a pack of Fanticism-Enchanted Spear cats to make good work of a Necromancer.

Ask any summoner on Battle.net whether they prefer Enigma or not.

are you saying that an elemental immune golem still goes down if it is hit with to many 0 damage attacks?

AFAIK a golem can only be elemental immune, but never physical or magic immune, as the golem can't block, the minions that comes closest to physical immunity, though impossible with the amount of +skills available in the game, are shadows.

For monsters, an elementally immune Golem would still be vulnerable to physical damage. Bone, Um'ed Shaftstop or Leviathan for an Iron Golem are all ways to reduce physical damage, but the latter two do not give the 4-All Resists. Without a block animation, Golems cannot be stunned or slowed.

 

[MichelRPG]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Hiding behind minions do not solve the basic issue of resistances and defense. Lightning-Enchanted Souls can shoot through all of the summons right to the summoner in WSKL2. Also, it takes very little for a pack of Fanticism-Enchanted Spear cats to make good work of a Necromancer.

It doesnt solve it, but it reduces the need for 75% allres. Basically with so many minions I just need a maxed lightning, and fire/cold being at a decent level, although I was able to do baalruns with undead souls/gloams around at 45 lightning res at relative ease (once again, as long as there is no conviction aura around)

As for spearcats, I already stated several times that the spearcats are the only monsters, aside of gloams and poison-bugged tomb vipers that can threaten me. And all you need is a little strategic insight or pure simple thinking to outlive those. An attract here, a dim vision there, a CE to finish... its no rocket science.

Ask any summoner on Battle.net whether they prefer Enigma or not.

I'm not any summoner. I am quite happy with my setup, and I have had the pleasure of using an Enigma yesterday to help someone rush. I am not doubting it's useful, or not powerful, or not worth it. I am just saying that for my personal playing style an Enigma is not needed. Hell enigma is only good for the teleport. I can do without that.

 

[Darker Realm]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

45 Light Resists is inadequate to survive all possible scenarios. Even with 75 Resists, LR / Conviction will decimate entire necromancer armies from experience. The ideal amount of resists would be stacked (+% All Res, Fire, Light, and Cold).

Hell enigma is only good for the teleport.

+2 To All Skills
+45% Faster Run/Walk
+1 To Teleport
+750-775 Defense (varies)
+ (0.75 Per Character Level) +0-74 To Strength (Based On Character Level)
Increase Maximum Life 5%
Damage Reduced By 8%
+14 Life After Each Kill
15% Damage Taken Goes To Mana
+ (1 Per Character Level) +1-99% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items (Based On Character Level)

Enigma is much more useful beyond the teleport, the nice defense, or even the MF. Indeed, these additional attributes are not absolutely necessary, but highly useful for a caster. For example, casters do not have the luxury of using a weapon for life leech. +Life Per Kill allows elemental or magic spells to replenish life. The +Strength allows heavier armors to be bugged on. % Damage Conversion to Mana allows casters to fight or flee when Mana Burned. Life is always something lacking on casters, compared to melee tank builds.

Likewise, Bone is equally as useful beyond what it seems to offer, which most players look to for the 30 All Res and the +2 Skills. The dual CtC's act like having both Frozen and Shiver Armor on, since the Armor retaliates with Bone Spears at ranged attackers, and can hit anything else in the projectile's path. 15% chance is too low for Bone to be a reliable deterrent to, but it should cast often enough to allow constant replenishing of Bone Armor so that recasting the Armor becomes almost unnecessary. Wearing the Runeword Bone means basically you don't have to cast Bone Armor anymore in early Hell difficulty.

+150 Mana is nothing to joke about (e.g. ripoff), as +Mana saves many trips otherwise needed to visit Malah for Mana Potions. You can shoot a lot more Bone Spears / Spirits with more mana. People spend large sums of real money for magic items such as dual modded Bahamut Ring (+100 Mana). 90 is also the max cap for any 10% FCR Rare ring.

Ultimately, Bone seems to be geared towards a Bone Nec, and may not suit the playing style of everyone, but it is still a good runeword.

 

[MichelRPG]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

45 Light Resists is inadequate to survive all possible scenarios. Even with 75 Resists, LR / Conviction will decimate entire necromancer armies from experience. The ideal amount of resists would be stacked (+% All Res, Fire, Light, and Cold).

Funny.. I have survived such scenarios with my army. Sure, it wasn't easy but it's survivable. Hell 2 days ago I had the unfortunate pleasure to have my minions (the revives) running into a room with 3 packs of uniques. One of the packs was a multiple shot conviction bastard. Thing is, I can simply cast "dim vision" ahead of me. most gloams simply stop and dont attack. Then an attract a few seconds later on several gloams and voilá; safe.

Enigma is much more useful beyond the teleport, the nice defense, or even the MF. Indeed, these additional attributes are not absolutely necessary, but highly useful for a caster. For example, casters do not have the luxury of using a weapon for life leech. +Life Per Kill allows elemental or magic spells to replenish life. The +Strength allows heavier armors to be bugged on. % Damage Conversion to Mana allows casters to fight or flee when Mana Burned. Life is always something lacking on casters, compared to melee tank builds.

Keep in mind, I am speaking about enigma for personal use. And the only thing possibly of use for me would be teleport. I have more than enough Str (184), the extra life is nice but my Shako and the amount of + to stats I have got that covered (not to mention I have 180 statpoints left and 580 life). Life per kill... dont need it. Aura+insight merc. Thats 50hp per second I think. Damage conversion? see above. Extra mana? I never run out, once again, Insight. The only other nice things would be the 8% DMG reduction, but my shako also has that. That + bone armor gives me enough physical resistance (bone armor absorbing 405dmg I believe)

Likewise, Bone is equally as useful beyond what it seems to offer, which most players look to for the 30 All Res and the +2 Skills. The dual CtC's act like having both Frozen and Shiver Armor on, since the Armor retaliates with Bone Spears at ranged attackers, and can hit anything else in the projectile's path.

The bonespear is only ON striking right? Now if it actually did strike back at ranger attackers with bonespear it would be slightly better. But even so, in hellmode a lv15 (whatever it has) bonespear without synenergies doesnt help much.

15% chance is too low for Bone to be a reliable deterrent to, but it should cast often enough to allow constant replenishing of Bone Armor so that recasting the Armor becomes almost unnecessary. Wearing the Runeword Bone means basically you don't have to cast Bone Armor anymore in early Hell difficulty.

You are absolutely right on that. And this was the sole reason I was doubting on using Bone or not. 15% is not exactly a bad CtC.

+150 Mana is nothing to joke about (e.g. ripoff), as +Mana saves many trips otherwise needed to visit Malah for Mana Potions. You can shoot a lot more Bone Spears / Spirits with more mana. People spend large sums of real money for magic items such as dual modded Bahamut Ring (+100 Mana). 90 is also the max cap for any 10% FCR Rare ring.

Im a summoner. Once again my merc has a lv14 (or 15) meditation aura which keeps my mana at a very stable level.

Ultimately, Bone seems to be geared towards a Bone Nec, and may not suit the playing style of everyone, but it is still a good runeword.

Its not a bad runeword, but considering it takes 2 ums (which are still rather expensive even if they're not HRS) it doesnt really give that much. But I admit I am skewed on this since the armor doesnt suit my playing style. For a bonemancer it might be worth it. But just not for me

 

[LordC]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

I've been following this thread since it started. I read the title, said "duh", then wondered how there could possibly be any debate about it. At this point in the discussion, I feel the need to throw my worthless opinion onto the table for everyone to ridicule. Most of the following has already been stated somewhere in this thread, but I just wanted to re-emphasize and compress it to substantiate my case.

/Start Rant

"Bone" is a ripoff. It is not a horrible RW; it's just wildly overpriced for its stats, and fits poorly into every Necro build I can think of.

The Abilities:
CtC Bone Armor: Pretty good for Summoners
CtC Bone Spear: Useless
+2 Necro Skills: Great for all Necros
+Mana: Redundant with the Insight merc (or Insight Golem) that most Necros use
+30 Resists: Good, but just a function of the Um runes
7 DR: See above

Compared to other armors:
- Engima is plainly superior for all necros
- Chains of Honor is plainly superior for all necros
- Bramble is plainly superior for Poisoners
- Skin of the Vipermagi is better for most Bone Necros and cheaper
- Trang's Armor is comparable for most Summoners and cheaper

Any consideration of the armor assumes that:
1. The player can afford 2 Um runes
2. The player cannot afford 2 HRs
3. The player's other gear could not substantially benefit from socketed Um runes.
4. The player cannot trade their Um runes to obtain highly useful upgrades for their other gear. Example: most Bone and Summon Necs would be better off keeping their Trang/Vipermagi and exchanging their Um runes for appropriate skillers; this would leave them with more +skills and better item mods.

Items 1 and 2 on this list essentially limit the armor to use in Single Player. Items 3 and 4 make it impractical, even foolish, to use under any circumstances where trading is an option.

And should trading not be an option, well, all kinds of crazy items can be used in desperation. I'm sure someone's beaten the game with a build optimized to abuse the raw power that is the Heaven's Brethren set. And such a character might even be weaker if he/she switched out an item from that set for a conventionally "good" one. But that doesn't make Heaven's Brethren any more desirable for the rest of us here in the real world. So it is with "Bone". It's possibly useful in some whacked out build for a solo player who got Ums from his/her NM and Hell forges, has no usable caster armor, has already socketed his/her helm and shield with useful stuff, needs +skills, doesn't need FCR, and never bothers to recast Bone Armor when it gets low. For that player, "Bone" would be perfect. For the rest us: Friends don't let friends waste their good runes to make untradable sub-par runewords.

If the runeword for Bone were "EldElEl" and it had the same stats, it would be great. But it's not, so it's not.

/End Rant

 

[AnimeCraze]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Likewise, Bone is equally as useful beyond what it seems to offer, which most players look to for the 30 All Res and the +2 Skills. The dual CtC's act like having both Frozen and Shiver Armor on, since the Armor retaliates with Bone Spears at ranged attackers, and can hit anything else in the projectile's path. 15% chance is too low for Bone to be a reliable deterrent to, but it should cast often enough to allow constant replenishing of Bone Armor so that recasting the Armor becomes almost unnecessary. Wearing the Runeword Bone means basically you don't have to cast Bone Armor anymore in early Hell difficulty.

This is a really, really bad thing. It trains you to forget to cast the armor, and its armor is weaker than yours.

+150 Mana is nothing to joke about (e.g. ripoff), as +Mana saves many trips otherwise needed to visit Malah for Mana Potions. You can shoot a lot more Bone Spears / Spirits with more mana. People spend large sums of real money for magic items such as dual modded Bahamut Ring (+100 Mana). 90 is also the max cap for any 10% FCR Rare ring.

This is PvM, not PvP. Stick some points into energy. And don't forget there is Ral Tir Tal Sol.

I agree with LordC, if the runes required for Bone is on the same level as Peace, I would gladly take it.

 

[jel]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Just to come with something against all this "bone should use lower runes" talk. Imagine Bone was made out runes with stats that gave no good bonuses, let's just take el+el+el which gives +45 defense points.

Then Bone would be 10% CtC, 10% CtC, +2 skills, +150 mana, + 45 defense.

Now if I had the choice about wanting bone to be like this, or be like um+um+sol so I also got +30 all resist and +7 damage reduce in the mix, I'd choose the latter, sure it makes Bone a lot more expensive, but it also makes it a lot better. If the only thing you're interested in is +mana and +skills then I follow your point, but I really think bone was one of the luckier runewords as the runes used are something I'd normally consider to put in a socketed armor for untwinked play (given I find those).

 

[LordC]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Just to come with something against all this "bone should use lower runes" talk. Imagine Bone was made out runes with stats that gave no good bonuses, let's just take el+el+el which gives +45 defense points.

Then Bone would be 10% CtC, 10% CtC, +2 skills, +150 mana, + 45 defense.

Now if I had the choice about wanting bone to be like this, or be like um+um+sol so I also got +30 all resist and +7 damage reduce in the mix, I'd choose the latter, sure it makes Bone a lot more expensive, but it also makes it a lot better. If the only thing you're interested in is +mana and +skills then I follow your point, but I really think bone was one of the luckier runewords as the runes used are something I'd normally consider to put in a socketed armor for untwinked play (given I find those).

Actually, if the runeword was ElElEl and the armor did not have any resists or DR, it would be used a heck of a lot more, especially for untwinked characters. Imagine running the normal mode Countess a few times, getting some Els, and making a 90 defense, +100mana, CtC Spear, CtC Armor, +2 Necro skills armor before you even hit level 12. Every untwinked low-level character of every class would use that. Heck, I sometimes make an "ElElEl" Ring Mail anyway, just for the defense, when I'm running untwinked.

On the other hand, few untwinked characters would even consider Bone, because Um runes are just not that common and there are usually better uses for them (Crescent Moon/Duress for your merc, socketed in helms/armor for resists, etc).

So the only possible uses for Bone are in solo, untwinked situations when Um runes are abundant but every other resource is scarce. And you're using a Necro build that can take advantage of it. And you don't need high defense, FHR, or FCR from your armor. That's enough limitations for me to file Bone in the "crap runeword" category, even if there are legit uses for it out there somewhere.

 

[AnimeCraze]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

@jel:
Put it this way, if you have an Um, you can always trade it, or socket it in more worthy places. (Duress runeword comes to mind, among with sticking it on a decent helm) Unless you are playing no twink, no rerun, no trade HC, and happened to come across 2 Um's, Bone is a complete, absolute, worthless, piece of junk.

If you want "good" rune mods, Ral/Ort/Thul would be good for it, still gives 30 to all important resist, but completely affordable.

 

[jel]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

@jel:
Put it this way, if you have an Um, you can always trade it, or socket it in more worthy places. (Duress runeword comes to mind, among with sticking it on a decent helm) Unless you are playing no twink, no rerun, no trade HC, and happened to come across 2 Um's, Bone is a complete, absolute, worthless, piece of junk.

If you want "good" rune mods, Ral/Ort/Thul would be good for it, still gives 30 to all important resist, but completely affordable.

I partly agree, but don't forget that the damage reduce by 7, with other similar such mods have a great impact on any char.

Again I'll stick to my very first argument, if I had a 4 socketed armor of amicae that I'd choose to put runes in, it'd most likely always be either um's or sol's, in some combination, depending on what lacks, now remove one socked and "of amicae" and add +2 all skills and 150 mana in stead of and you've got a decent replacement that'll be better for some situations worse for other.

Yes I agree many more expensive items runewise is better, and many less expensive items, though uniques (so unlikely to found exactly the unique you're looking for) will also be better for most situations, I've no doubt that when playing untwinked, bone can really be a great asset, if you dedicate yourself to countess runs in stead of shopping for some Jewelers of amicae armor.