Best bow for Faith for both Amazon and merc usage

[rafquad]

Hello all! Long time no post

Last year I played the game again for 2-3 months and managed to get some pretty wicked stuff. This year I decided to start again without twinking the old stuff and in just one month Jah and Ohm have dropped for my Fishyzon and BlizzSorc (gotta love 1.13d)! Now I can finally make the runeword I always wanted but never made: Faith

I want to be able to use the bow in a Merc, since that's the most versatile/fun. I don't care for minmaxing so Faith GMB is out even if it's awesome (and I don't have a +3 4os anyway) for a Zon. I'm just wondering what would be the best all around bow that my Zon can use herself (she's using a up'd WWS which is the best I have) but that can also be used, in the future, in the merc alongside Windforce or in the merc for various fun builds that will love Fanaticism support.

I have a 13% sup Blade Bow and a 4os Great Bow, but can farm for more if need be.

Suggestions?

Thanks in advance!
St@rWizard / SWizard

 

[Xios]

I would probably go for a Great Bow just to limit how much IAS you'd need on the character to reach breakpoints, particularly for a Merc.

Blade Bow is similar but has a bit less (that is, 1 less) average damage than a Great Bow.

Your other non-Zon options would be Crusader/Hydra (slowest, same average damage, Hydra has higher requirements to consider for your Zon, mostly) while the in between option would be a Shadow Bow.

The exact perfect fit would depend on what gear you know you're using for IAS breakpoints if you can squeeze out some extra damage with a higher base. Best to use a calculator, although remember Faith has variance on the Fanaticism Aura (12-15) which may alter your calculations.

For reference here's Arreat Summit.

Just my two cents though.

 

[Burgomaster3]

I was in similar situation a while back. I wanted to use Faith with merc, and also other, non-amazon builds, so I made my Faith in 13%ed Superior Blade Bow, and haven't looked back since. BB has reasonable requirements, that was my main reason. The damage difference between bows isn't that significant, and the merc is mostly there for the aura anyways.

http://www.purediablo.com/forums/threads/best-darn-act-1-merc-ias-table-period.718942/ <-- Here's a nice thread with tables for all the different scenarios you might encounter when using Act 1 merc. For most DPS, Shadow and Crusader Bows win, so if you want the best damage output, go with those. For ease of use/versatility, Blade Bow wins, IMO.

All in all, I think most of the Elite Bows have potential to be useful as Faith. IAS is quite easy to get for merc from Treachery, Andy's, VampGaze /w 15%ias jewel etc. and the Fanaticism obviously makes it easier to reach the right breakpoints. With merc using Treachery+Andy's /w 15ias jool it's possible to reach fastest (9 frames per attack) bp even with Hydra Bow with lowest possible Fataticism.

 

[Gripphon1]

If I understand correctly, you are seeking best bow for both merc, but also your zon too so she can use it too. In that case, priority is almost entirely on your zon since merc is great with whatever bow, nor does it provide much influence other than giving fanaticism aura. Any elite bow will do with merc, you are the one doing the killing anyway.

If you have a nice way to get 65/70 IAS with 0 bow and have knockback (either gloves or Giant Skull I assume, especially Giant Skull with 2 sockets since Laying of Hands are too awesome gloves to skip unless you don't kill demons at all), go for it. Otherwise -10 bow makes it very versatile option and you can jiggle around equipment easily since at worst you need 50 IAS to have maxed attack rate.

With -10 bow you can focus better on defensive stats, while 0 bow is focused toward attack. When I played bowa in pvm, I didn't really bother with resistances and defense and had 100+ frw which kept me alive along with knockback because monsters simply couldn't catch me or hit me with missiles, and I used 0 bow (because I made it for PvP). However, I saw people for whatever reason prefer to have only like 30-40 frw on their bowazons, and if you do too, then you might as well need more focus toward defense and then -10 bow is stronger since you have more gear options available.

 

[rafquad]

Thanks for the quick/in-depth replies, ppl!

Yes, I want to prioritize my Zon, if possible. I am relatively poor in this reboot. I have three characters in the mid-80's and found Vex/Jah/Ohm due to prioritizing Pit/AT running. I don't even have stuff like Shako or Tal's Armor yet, not even a Goldstrike Arch to up (which is one of the best and cheapest pit running bows for my tastes). I have done enough Meph runs to find most of the needed stuff (Titan's and Occy for my Fishyzon and Meteorber, some War Travelers, a Skullder's) but that's pretty much it. So yeah right now my only option is Faith merc + upd' WWS on my Zon and I think that is just worse than running Faith + Atma's Scarab on the 'Zon herself + Might Merc, right? I have Atma's too.

Should I wait until I find a 15% Great Bow or import one from my old stashes (would rather not) or simply use Larzuk on the 13% Blade Bow and start sniping away?

Another question: 2FPA Strafe should not be bethered with, bottom line, right? Or is it better than 3FPA in some cases (and if so, which cases?) I never really understood this issue. To sum up, I don't know if the 2-frame Strafe bug makes 2-frame attacks useless to aim for or it's indeed bugged in some ways but still an improvement over 3FPA. That might be relevant when considering a base -10 vs a base 0 bow, and also the rest of the Gear. If 3FPA is the best/only option, then I might wait for a 4os Shadow Bow since I can get enough IAS from other items.

Right now my Zon can/would use:

Bow: Faith or upd WWS
Helm: Howltusk or the unique Death Mask, or other lowly options like Tal's Mask/Vamp Gaze. I don't have Giant Skull, Stealskull or Andy's, yet. Can use a Blue Circlet with 2os and some Jools of Fervor.
Amulet: Atma's if not WWS
Armor: Upd Twitchthroe or Crow Caw or Nat's Armor or Treachery or something with MF%
Gloves: LoH
Belt: Nos' Coil or Goldwrap for the 10% IAS, Crafted Blood or 'dungos or Tal's Belt (Dex and MF) if I don't need IAS
Boots: War Traveler
Rings: Manald Heal (lol) and my best rare, I don't have much good jewelry. Haven't found a Ravenfrost yet...

Thanks again!

 

[Xios]

The mask you're thinking of is Blackhorn's Face.

When it comes to waiting that's kind of up to you on how badly you need/want your Faith. When it comes to it being on the Merc, I don't think a 13% Blade Blow versus a 15% Great Bow will make much of a noticeable difference. On your Zon, either bow will always be worse than your choice of Amazon bows (or whatever other runeword/unique bow you might wind up with), so going for extreme optimization might feel a little hollow or unnecessary, especially if without it you feel overly weak. Of course I'm not rolling in Faith runes either, so I understand your hesitation to put them to use.

I can't say I'm particularly familiar with the whole 2-Frame Strafe Bug, I'll leave that to someone more experienced with what you're mentioning.

 

[Burgomaster3]

For belt slot, I'd consider Razortail. The Pierce is awesome, and it has other useful stats as well.

And I'm with @Xios on the difference between Blade Bow and Great Bow. They have 1 point difference between their average damages, so that extra 2% doesn't really do that much. But then again, it's and expensive RW so go with your gut if you feel it's important

 

[rafquad]

I haven't found a Razortail yet (yes, 1.13d really does drop them runes lol)

My 4os Great Bow is not a sup 15% one, it's a plain one, so the 13% Blade Bow is good enough, then? Will it be a decent-to-good weapon in my own Amazon or should I wait for a Shadow bow? Again, I know GMB is great but I really don't want to make it in a class-specific bow because I want to have access to a Merc Faith for any characters that I might make. But for now yes it will be used in a pit running Strafer so I want to make it into a decent/good Zon weapon. It doesn't need to be better than Windforce, since I don't have one yet, and if I do find one that is precisely why I want to have access to a Faith merc. Just has to be a good weapon for my current state.

So bottom line I guess the question is: is a Faith Shadow or Crusader Bow *considerably* more damaging than a Blade or Great Bow one? If yes, I might wait until I find either. If not, I can make with either one of the -10 bows. I don't plan on making a second Faith Bow, though, because Jah and Ohm have numerous other great runewords to be used in, that's why I want to choose somewhat carefully and focus on versatility for my item rather than min-maxing to the fullest just for my Strafer.

Edit - as an added requisite, I'd *really* like to not depend on the Fanaticism roll. I'm thinking that scratches off the heavier bows (Crusader and Hydra). Does Shadow/Diamond Bow need a specific Fanat roll to justify the runeword? If yes then it really will boil down to Great vs Blade.

 

[T72on1]

As for the Strafe bug, the way I understand it and think it works, is explained in this post.

The /2 strafe bug is quite easy. You need to learn to make a distinction between the server side and the client side. The client side will visualise a /2 strafe. However, the server side won't.
So eventhough it looks like you shoot arrows at /2 (well you are shooting them, they just don't do damage) you are really just doing damage at a /3 rate.

So why go for /2 strafe if it won't offer you anything. Damage will be done at /3 anyway - not to mention the fact that in a /2 cyclus, you can't shoot 10 /3 arrow.

 

[onderduiker]

Another question: 2FPA Strafe should not be bethered with, bottom line, right? Or is it better than 3FPA in some cases (and if so, which cases?) I never really understood this issue. To sum up, I don't know if the 2-frame Strafe bug makes 2-frame attacks useless to aim for or it's indeed bugged in some ways but still an improvement over 3FPA.

Basin Wiki is back online, so I'll post this link:

https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/index.php/Amazon_attack_speed#Strafe

 

[rafquad]

Thanks, onderduiker!

So, people. I just found a 14% 4os Sup Ward Bow. That and the 13% sup Blade Bow are probably the 1st and 2nd options I have. I'm thinking of making it in the Ward Bow, because it's more damaging (relevant for the Amazon usage).

Since I will need 20% extra IAS for the Ward Bow, is that worth it? Or is the flexibility to add more %ED through gear (like eventually wearing a Fort, and being able to use Atma's Scarab over Cat's Eye) worth it?

To nail it down to a simpler choice, would you make it in the sup Ward Bow or in the sup Blade Bow? Or neither, and wait for something else?

Thanks again!

 

[thefranklin]

There is a 50 max damage difference between the two. With enough charms adding damage (and the 10-25 from War Travs), you could probably make the percentage difference in damage to be close enough that the mod sacrifices made for ias for the Ward Bow even it out damage wise. In summary, do whatever you want!

And on the strafe /2 stuff: the important difference is that if you hold strafe down and don't move, you do gain damage over time because the slow server strafe sequence is canceled and another strafe starts sooner.

 

[rafquad]

There is a 50 max damage difference between the two. With enough charms adding damage (and the 10-25 from War Travs), you could probably make the percentage difference in damage to be close enough that the mod sacrifices made for ias for the Ward Bow even it out damage wise.

Sorry, I'm a bit lost. Your explanation seems to imply that Blade Bow is better, because I can use +maxdmg to make the dmg difference smaller and smaller, and then Blade Bow needing 20% less IAS will mean I make less gear sacrifices, right? I'm not seeing how it's just a matter of preference. I am inclined to the Ward Bow because of the extra damage, even more so because of +maxdmg gear which I still plan on using (WT and charms, yeah).

In the end, is it really a similar choice? Would you pick Blade or Ward yourself?

 

[thefranklin]

Personally, I would pick Ward. I don't like strafe, so the extra arrows of the /2 breakpoints don't impress me.

What I was trying to say is that your overall damage with either will probably be pretty similar. Notice "probably", as in no calculations were performed to come to that conclusion.

 

[rafquad]

Ah, I see now Thanks!

My main skill is Strafe, though, so I'm feeling that +50 max damage is a very big deal. I use most of my inventory spaces filled with GCs that vary from +7 to +10 and the difference is huge. I am using an upped WWS which has pretty low base dmg, though.

Thing is, I think it boils down to:
Ward Bow has +50 max dmg / Blade Bow has "extra 20% IAS"

It depends on what speed I want to aim for, too. If I aim for the second-best 8-frame Multi Shot there's still a 15 IAS difference that the Ward Bow needs to hit that (it needs 30 or 35 IAS total depending on the Fanaticism roll, while Blade Bow hits it with Laying of Hands alone). This means that I need to put at least one IAS jool on my Giant Skull (just found one ) for the Ward, while with BB I can socket a +15 or ED% jewel or whatever else, instead. In this comparison, though, I sacrifice much less damage (~15 max) than the difference that the Ward Bow brings (+50). And the 15% extra IAS also puts me in the fastest Strafe speed possible, freely.

The downside is that I am settling for 8-frame Multi Shot, which I think is the biggest sacrifice that Ward Bow demands. It would need 65/70 IAS to hit the fastest Multi, so I basically *need* either a 45% helmet and a good fanat roll (losing KB and +STR from the Skull), or Cat's Eye, or some IAS in armor (no Fortitude for the future, then). I don't have a Cat's yet and that would make me lose my Atma's Scarab, too. I think that if I want the best 7-frame MS, then Blade Bow is the choice because of all the gear flexibility which will allow me to wear both Atma's and Fort, together.

I double-checked my sup Blade Bow and it *is* a perfect +15% +3 one, which makes it an even nicer option, hehe. It will cost me an extra Larzuk, though (which may seem irrelevant but I only have 4 characters in Hell and lots of needs that need socketing yet, like my Griffon's). I have ~3 socketing quests saved and would be nice to keep it spare.

I guess I'll keep cowing until I decide? Dropped me the 14% Ward and a 12% Great Bow, so I'll carry on =p

 

[Gripphon1]

More relevant info is what would your final min-max damage be on an amazon. Assuming 15% ED Ward Bow vs 15% ED Blade Bow, assuming you have at least 50 max damage in inventory, assuming you use WT (another +15 min +25 max damage) and assuming you use Razortail (+10 max), then Ward Bow would do ~13% more damage per hit.

Now if you really want to use Atma's, then the choice is pretty simple - Blade Bow. In fact, you don't really have a choice then because not having knockback or replacing LoH for knockback gloves will simply hurt you too much. Or, you will settle with 8 fpa with Ward Bow (mind you, strafe will be stronger, but multishot will be similarly strong as the one from Blade Bow or slightly weaker because of that lost frame).

I suggest you plan your bowazon with all the easy to find items you are gonna use in the future (Cat's Eye is easy to find category as is Highlord's Wrath which also provides 20 IAS). However, I don't know what to suggest between having Atma's or having IAS amulet because I didn't really use Atma's myself and don't know how powerful its procing mod really is. It will make possible to kill physical immunes though. Might be important if you really like to do full clears. I simply ignored whatever I couldn't kill.

So... from my point of view, biggest decision for you to make is whether or not will Atma's Scarab be your main amulet. Because if not, then Ward is simply stronger on all fronts (iasias Skull helm ofc). I would aim to get 7 frame attack myself since this also has influence on your survivability (monsters are more often knocked back/put to recovery). I used Cat's Eye and went on high FRW for survivability keeping monsters far from me and avoiding all the missiles they threw at me. But I wasn't much of a strafe user either, multishot was what I used most of the time, strafe only when few monsters were left.

 

[rafquad]

Atma's is really, really strong. I plan to level her 5 or 6 more levels at The Pit (she's lvl80 now) and then proceed to finish hell and maybe do RoF/Chaos runs. At the pits with Bowies I usually clear it at p3 or p5, just because I like the ammount of litter on the floor and the big chunks of speed (what I mean is that no, I did not compare p1/p3/p5 speeds to optimize. Should I?). Due to that, Atma's proc is very, very good. It is also a 5% chance (compare to 2% from WWS), so it procs a lot and is good even for killing non-immunes, specially Skellies.

Right now, my gear is:
Helm: just found a 2os Giant Skull when cowing with Fishyzon, so that. Will socket with 30% IAS.
Armor: I've been using Crow Caw with my WWS. I can keep using that, or take a random set/magical 3os armor and put some ed% or +dmg jewels, or upped Twitchthroe if I get a bad Fanat roll (it gets me to 70% IAS with LoH + 2x IAS Giant Skull). Plan to get Fort eventually, but for now I think those are my best choices when dmg/ias are concerned.
Gloves: LoH, "hands down"
Boots: 46% WT, also no-brainer.
Belt: I've been using Nos' Coil because my WWS setup needs the IAS and +Str. Life leech is nice too. I will probably keep using the nos coil, since it is my only source of life leech and I haven't found a Razortail in this PT (and I don't want to mule from my "past" characters, not now and not such a lowly item)
Bow: upped WWS, which will now become whatever Faith bow I end up making.
Ring 1: Ravenfrost
Ring 2: Manald Heal/mana leech ring.
Ammy: Atma's Scarab

By keeping Nos Coil and Crow Caw (25% IAS), plus LoH and Giant Skull, I can have up to 75% even with Atma's on. Since I will be using that setup to keep leveling the character and, if/when I do find IAS amulet the ammy gets me to 7-frame with Ward Bow, I'm guessing that Ward Bow is the choice, then? It comes with the extra damage, and I can manage both the 65/70 IAS *and* Atma's for the full damage/7-frame/amp dmg proc setup.

So hey Gripphon, Ward then? I'm very inclined to, after your response. Thanks for the help

 

[Burgomaster3]

Wouldn't Treachery be a good option for an armor? With 45 ias it would at least free some slots, you could put ed jewel(s) in Giant Skull, replace Nos Coil with Razortail when you find it etc. Also provides you with Fade and Venom, so there's that.

 

[Gripphon1]

@SWizard
Don't know really since I lack in understanding how useful Atma's is since I didn't use it myself (except for this ). I'm a great theorycrafter, but my playing experience with amazon is quite limited, so it would be best if perhaps someone more experienced amazon player first clarifies just how useful Atma's really is to an otherwise more damaging alternative. So, this said along with my last post is the most help I can offer you without misleading you to the wrong path. I used Diamond bow so didn't really have much of a choice, now I have Matriarchal bow, but that is amazon-only bow...

 

[krischan]

Hmm, it seems I can't leave a bowazon thread uncommented.

Atma's is really, really strong.

Indeed. Ghosts etc. often stack on each other when attacking, so every arrow goes through all of them (assuming Razortail), triggering Amp very quickly.

At the pits with Bowies I usually clear it at p3 or p5, just because I like the ammount of litter on the floor and the big chunks of speed (what I mean is that no, I did not compare p1/p3/p5 speeds to optimize. Should I?).

As long as you still have to use WWS, I wouldn't do anything but /p1 Pits. Random bosses don't drop more at higher /p settings and XP are equivalent to additional life of monsters. It also reduces the risk of dying, a factor which becomes more and more significant when leveling.

Right now, my gear is:
Helm: just found a 2os Giant Skull when cowing with Fishyzon, so that. Will socket with 30% IAS.

A Giant Skull is an excellent choice because it has what Faith doesn't have in comparison to WF: Knockback, the ultimate life insurance for bowazons. Just don't socket it with any IAS stuff of value at this point. Once you have Faith, you don't need further IAS and you better socket it with something else.

Armor: I've been using Crow Caw with my WWS. I can keep using that, or take a random set/magical 3os armor and put some ed% or +dmg jewels, or upped Twitchthroe if I get a bad Fanat roll (it gets me to 70% IAS with LoH + 2x IAS Giant Skull). Plan to get Fort eventually, but for now I think those are my best choices when dmg/ias are concerned.

Crow Caw is a heavy armor which slows down running speed. I would prefer Twitchthroe. I wouldn't upgrade it, however, the additional AR isn't worth it. Either you have a really good armor rating or you ignore it altogether. Stay away from monsters, your new Giant Skull will help at that a lot!

Boots: 46% WT, also no-brainer.

OK, as long as you are using WWS. When you have Fort+Faith, I would maximize resists with Aldur's or Natalya's boots or a nice pair of rares, so CS and WSK becomes safer - or even convenient

Belt: I've been using Nos' Coil because my WWS setup needs the IAS and +Str. Life leech is nice too. I will probably keep using the nos coil, since it is my only source of life leech and I haven't found a Razortail in this PT (and I don't want to mule from my "past" characters, not now and not such a lowly item)

Razortail is a must for a bowazon, so once you've found it, put it on immediately!

Ring 2: Manald Heal/mana leech ring.

As soon as you replace Nos' Coil with Razorztail, you need a dual leech ring here.

So hey Gripphon, Ward then? I'm very inclined to, after your response. Thanks for the help

To be honest, I would not make Faith in anything but a +3 GMB. Mercs are too dumb for actions as sophisticated as going to a place which is probably safe and attack from there. If you insist on it, I would use a great bow. Ihe quicker the bow, the more often their elemental attack is applied.