Batman - The Dark Knight Mafia Game

Interrogation is a plurality vote system. It's not the typical majority lynch system.

In the SuperTroopers game, which used plurality votes, someone was lynched with a grand total of 2 votes, none of which were town votes.

Mafia have enormous influence over plurality vote systems. The typical 25% to 33% scum rate means we can't discount the possibility of 7 scum (or more if multiple mafia factions). With 7 votes and while looking at the latest vote count, mafia can almost pick any 2 players to put up for interrogation. They can move #1 to #3. They can elevate someone with 0 votes to the #1. Mafia can still rig the votes even if they have fewer than 7 members though they are more limited in what they can do.

From Baldur's Gate Dead QT:
[QUOTE:Goryani]I came *THIS* close to talking about multiple mafia when discussing the dragonhunt and extra vote during twilight. I would have worded it: "The only way we lynch two mafia with an extra vote on D1 is if they are on separate mafia teams."[/QUOTE]

I have a similar feeling about Interrogate this game. I think the only way mafia is subject to prosecution tomorrow is if there are separate mafia teams. Some are treating interrogate as a normal vote (majority vote rules). Some are treating it as an investigation tool. Some are treating it as a joke vote. I don't think anyone is treating it as a plurality lynch vote.
 
Bad Ash said:
And I'm not Alfred just couldn't pass up the opportunity to use that bad boy
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Probably my favorite character in the batman universe. :thumbup:

Drixx said:
Okay ... but without this twilight mechanic, how would we have had anything but silly spam posts to fill in the time? The interrogation mechanic has people talking about the game and making arguments about how to use it and about what it implies for using the second part of it and such.

Without other people using the interrogate mechanic, you would have had only spam and off-topic posts to go on. Since roles are randomized, without this mechanic what would you have to go on? You seemed to be against the use of this mechanic unless those of us using it planned to try and lynch our interrogate target tomorrow; however, without some of us using it to get the discussion on topic, nobody would have anything to really go on tomorrow. Your position seems self-contradictory. You criticize us for using it early and saying that we may swap it to other people or we may not want to lynch the person we interrogate, and you back up that criticism by saying you are going to look at "posts, interrogates, questions and responses" to figure out who is likely to be scum ... but you wouldn't have any of that stuff if nobody used the mechanic. You would instead have a bunch of spam and off-topic posts.

So you condemn the very people providing you with the information you say you want to use to find scum. The way that reads to me is that you don't care who gets lynched just as long as you can point to a good reason why you thought they were scum.
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I don't believe I remember seeing your answer to CG's question. If we had a Day start, should we use the lynch?

You also seem to be greatly misrepresenting my position
Your claims, in your own words:
1)You seemed to be against the use of this mechanic unless those of us using it planned to try and lynch our interrogate target tomorrow.
-False. I am perfectly fine with throwing out test "interrogates." But if your interrogate is not on someone you believe is scum by the end of the day, you run the risk of getting someone lynched you don't think is likely to be scum. Which makes you likely to be scum.
2)You criticize us for using it early...
-False - never said that, find a quote for it.
3)...and saying that we may swap it to other people
-False - never said that, find a quote for it. I have no problem with test votes, much less an interrogate.
4)So you condemn the very people providing you with the information you say you want to use to find scum.
-Again false, I never condemned you. I actually posted that you had an interesting idea. I did say that by the end of the day, interrogate votes should only be on people they find scummy.
5)you don't care who gets lynched
-0/5. So to be clear, you think that the person who wants "interrogates" to be on scum targets by the end of the day cares less about who is lynched than the person who just puts it on a lurker?

So what exactly were you trying to do with that post?

Malevolent said:
there are 23 people this game, this leads me to beleive that there are 4 or 5 mafia, IF the mafia knew who each other were then thier votes will most likely be on different townies, so as not to all be connected, then the town will most likely pile up and hit a townie, i would say that the chances of getting a mafia lynched from the twilight information is pretty low, even if we have 3 subjects up for interrogation. If the mafia do not yet know each other then the town would have a decent shot i would say, the question is, do mafia normally receive thier teamates names during the twilight phase?
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How did you arrive at the 4-5 mafia estimate?
How would knowing if mafia receive names change your opinion on how to use interrogate?
 
Goryani said:
Interrogation is a plurality vote system. It's not the typical majority lynch system.

In the SuperTroopers game, which used plurality votes, someone was lynched with a grand total of 2 votes, none of which were town votes.

Mafia have enormous influence over plurality vote systems. The typical 25% to 33% scum rate means we can't discount the possibility of 7 scum (or more if multiple mafia factions). With 7 votes and while looking at the latest vote count, mafia can almost pick any 2 players to put up for interrogation. They can move #1 to #3. They can elevate someone with 0 votes to the #1. Mafia can still rig the votes even if they have fewer than 7 members though they are more limited in what they can do.

From Baldur's Gate Dead QT:
[QUOTE:Goryani]I came *THIS* close to talking about multiple mafia when discussing the dragonhunt and extra vote during twilight. I would have worded it: "The only way we lynch two mafia with an extra vote on D1 is if they are on separate mafia teams."
Click to expand...

I have a similar feeling about Interrogate this game. I think the only way mafia is subject to prosecution tomorrow is if there are separate mafia teams. Some are treating interrogate as a normal vote (majority vote rules). Some are treating it as an investigation tool. Some are treating it as a joke vote. I don't think anyone is treating it as a plurality lynch vote.[/QUOTE]

All well and good, but is there a point lost in there somewhere? What do you actually advocate that we do?
 
Goryani said:
Yes, really. And thank you for that response as I was expecting it. You didn't consider Interrogation a real vote even while being voted for. I'm not surprised. Noodle didn't. I wouldn't. I think we all know it doesn't really count.

Release: Drixx

I'll be honest, I'm not sure how town should handle interrogation/prosecution or if it should at all.
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It's an interesting mechanic but I'm not sure that it's in place to benefit the town, honestly.

Goryani said:
Interrogation is a plurality vote system. It's not the typical majority lynch system.

In the SuperTroopers game, which used plurality votes, someone was lynched with a grand total of 2 votes, none of which were town votes.

Mafia have enormous influence over plurality vote systems. The typical 25% to 33% scum rate means we can't discount the possibility of 7 scum (or more if multiple mafia factions). With 7 votes and while looking at the latest vote count, mafia can almost pick any 2 players to put up for interrogation. They can move #1 to #3. They can elevate someone with 0 votes to the #1. Mafia can still rig the votes even if they have fewer than 7 members though they are more limited in what they can do.

From Baldur's Gate Dead QT:
[QUOTE:Goryani]I came *THIS* close to talking about multiple mafia when discussing the dragonhunt and extra vote during twilight. I would have worded it: "The only way we lynch two mafia with an extra vote on D1 is if they are on separate mafia teams."
Click to expand...

I have a similar feeling about Interrogate this game. I think the only way mafia is subject to prosecution tomorrow is if there are separate mafia teams. Some are treating interrogate as a normal vote (majority vote rules). Some are treating it as an investigation tool. Some are treating it as a joke vote. I don't think anyone is treating it as a plurality lynch vote.[/QUOTE]

Well, it's a plurality vote followed by a chance to lynch a limited subset of people. If I understand it correctly, a lynch will only happen tomorrow on the "prosecute" lynch if enough people prosecute someone to satisfy the normal lynch count, so in that respect it's not necessarily a plurality vote lynch. Certainly there is a very real danger than the mafia could rig it so that the only candidates up for the prosecute lynch are townies, but that's a whole bucket of WIFOM as far as I can think it through.

Gwaihir said:
Probably my favorite character in the batman universe. :thumbup:

I don't believe I remember seeing your answer to CG's question. If we had a Day start, should we use the lynch?

You also seem to be greatly misrepresenting my position
Your claims, in your own words:
1)You seemed to be against the use of this mechanic unless those of us using it planned to try and lynch our interrogate target tomorrow.
-False. I am perfectly fine with throwing out test "interrogates." But if your interrogate is not on someone you believe is scum by the end of the day, you run the risk of getting someone lynched you don't think is likely to be scum. Which makes you likely to be scum.
2)You criticize us for using it early...
-False - never said that, find a quote for it.
3)...and saying that we may swap it to other people
-False - never said that, find a quote for it. I have no problem with test votes, much less an interrogate.
4)So you condemn the very people providing you with the information you say you want to use to find scum.
-Again false, I never condemned you. I actually posted that you had an interesting idea. I did say that by the end of the day, interrogate votes should only be on people they find scummy.
5)you don't care who gets lynched
-0/5. So to be clear, you think that the person who wants "interrogates" to be on scum targets by the end of the day cares less about who is lynched than the person who just puts it on a lurker?

So what exactly were you trying to do with that post?
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I was trying to understand what you were saying. I told you what it said to me implicitly. You pointed out that it didn't say those things explicitly, which is true, but only you know whether you meant the things that I saw implicitly there. Your response is satisfying though.

As far as would I lynch on a game starting with a day phase? I guess the answer is kind of a little complicated. I think there is a lot of validity in the idea that the town needs to lynch, but there are some exceptional cases where a no-lynch is better.

So let's examine a potential day 1 scenario. 23 players with 5 mafia. If there are no slips and nobody says something that gives a scum tell, it's basically a random lynch. Someone will generate some reason and others will jump on board just because it's generally accepted that the town should lynch. So you have and 18/23 chance of lynching a tonwie (78%) which gives you a 22% chance to get a scum.

So unless someone makes a slip basically a day start gives this theoretical mafia team a 78% chance to go into the day following their first kill with an extra dead townie while the town gets a 22% chance to go into the first night with a mafia dead before the first townie dies.

That seems fairly strongly weighted towards the mafia side.

Then you have the standard night start game where a townie dies and that starts the game and basically the town has little to nothing to go on the first day. Basically over a large sample set of games, 4 times out of 5 the night start game benefits the town more than a day start game.

The twilight start, on the other hand, gives both sides an opportunity to get some data before the first body hits the ground. It's debatable which side gets more benefit from twilight phase, but it seems like it's better than either a night or day start as far as the town is concerned.
 
Well we also got two scum with the dragonhunt. Lucky, probably. Interrogate is a way get information from people. We don't have to act on it, just puts two people on the forefront and let them stand on their merits for town vs. scum. I say sally forth!
 
Gwaihir said:
How did you arrive at the 4-5 mafia estimate?
How would knowing if mafia receive names change your opinion on how to use interrogate?
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well, i know that 4 mafia is standard for a 20 man game, so the extra 3 people might give an extra mafia, howver 6 is probably possible, i think that 7 is excessive though.

if mafia dont know each other yet then then we are able to interrogate without fear that the mafia can control it as easily you say, and we might acatually have a mafia up for interrogation/prosection, if hey DO know each other then you are correct, and we really cant expect to get a scum lynch tommorow with that system.
 
Gwaihir said:
What did you mean by this?
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I have no freaking clue. Did it sound like an intelligent question?


Solar Ice said:
You are immediately assuming that the prosecution candidates for Tomorrow are Town. Why?


Interrogate: crawlingdeadman
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There's more townies than scum?

[URL="http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Game_of_Mafia" said:
Mafiascum.net[/URL]]Typically, the two teams are a relatively small Mafia group, and the much larger Town group
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Seems more likely to get townies on accident with a higher number of town vs mafia. Of course, with Gotham City being like it is, there could be loads of mafia and only a few actual civilians.

Brings up a question for the group, how much does everyone know about Batman? I have read quite a few of the comics and have seen all of the movies as most everyone in my age group has, I'm sure.
 
So Gory, don't interrogate anyone because mafia could also vote with you?

I don't believe plurality vote or whatever is that is important because a lot can happen before we actually need to decide to lynch based on it. So we should be putting our two most likely scum on the prosecute list to have an extra option tomorrow.

Drixx: playing some mean defense there, 12 long posts in a row or something.

Anyone else get the feeling that BA and Noodle are just putting on a show? And usually BA is super aggressively very with his lynches when he is town, a stark contrast to his earlier post.
 
thefranklin said:
So Gory, don't interrogate anyone because mafia could also vote with you?

I don't believe plurality vote or whatever is that is important because a lot can happen before we actually need to decide to lynch based on it. So we should be putting our two most likely scum on the prosecute list to have an extra option tomorrow.

Drixx: playing some mean defense there, 12 long posts in a row or something.

Anyone else get the feeling that BA and Noodle are just putting on a show? And usually BA is super aggressively very with his lynches when he is town, a stark contrast to his earlier post.
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Totally made me laugh out loud with that. Thanks :)
 
BA and Noodle always put on a show, but this one is a bit more elaborate than usual.

I had something else to say but I forgot what it was. I'll try to figure it out.
 
Drixx said:
Well, it's a plurality vote followed by a chance to lynch a limited subset of people. If I understand it correctly, a lynch will only happen tomorrow on the "prosecute" lynch if enough people prosecute someone to satisfy the normal lynch count, so in that respect it's not necessarily a plurality vote lynch. Certainly there is a very real danger than the mafia could rig it so that the only candidates up for the prosecute lynch are townies, but that's a whole bucket of WIFOM as far as I can think it through.
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The who is the most important part. The who will decide the if. Who can be prosecuted? That will be decided by a plurality vote and it's clear not everyone is using the plurality vote as a plurality vote.
 
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