[confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
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Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
I belive anything build from parts after 2005, can run D3 on almost max settings. :thumbsup:
I belive anything build from parts after 2005, can run D3 on almost max settings. :thumbsup:
Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
item find bots are fine, its the spam bots that are annoying
item find bots are fine, its the spam bots that are annoying
Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
no
:yes: :crazyeyes: :scratchchin:
no
:yes: :crazyeyes: :scratchchin:
Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
Are you trying to make a point of some kind? If yes, why don't you state it, together with a reasoning that your point is accurate? Just take care not to violate the forum rules with your answer.
Blizzard says that bots aren't allowed because they regard it as gaining an unfair advantage. I'm not going to provide a reasoning for something which Blizzard says, so you can discuss the matter with Blizzard if you don't know it.
That leaves the question what we think about bots and hacks and of Blizzard's decision to disallow them. However, it makes no sense to discuss this question because anybody who supports the use bots violates the forum rules.
You might have a different opinion, but when you became a forum member here, you agreed to comply with the forum rules which say that promoting the use of hacks and cheats is not allowed. I don't mean to say that anybody in here has already crossed the red line, but the debate here is in danger of crossing it.
In case you asked your questions because you don't know the answers:
The value of something depends on how many efforts are spent on gathering it on average. MF devalues items as well, of course, but those who use bots in spite of Blizzard's terms of use need less efforts to get their loot, so they devalue items to a greater degree than Blizzard wants it to happen.
Are you trying to make a point of some kind? If yes, why don't you state it, together with a reasoning that your point is accurate? Just take care not to violate the forum rules with your answer.
Blizzard says that bots aren't allowed because they regard it as gaining an unfair advantage. I'm not going to provide a reasoning for something which Blizzard says, so you can discuss the matter with Blizzard if you don't know it.
That leaves the question what we think about bots and hacks and of Blizzard's decision to disallow them. However, it makes no sense to discuss this question because anybody who supports the use bots violates the forum rules.
You might have a different opinion, but when you became a forum member here, you agreed to comply with the forum rules which say that promoting the use of hacks and cheats is not allowed. I don't mean to say that anybody in here has already crossed the red line, but the debate here is in danger of crossing it.
In case you asked your questions because you don't know the answers:
The value of something depends on how many efforts are spent on gathering it on average. MF devalues items as well, of course, but those who use bots in spite of Blizzard's terms of use need less efforts to get their loot, so they devalue items to a greater degree than Blizzard wants it to happen.
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Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
I don't support bots. Don't know where you get that from. I haven't even expressed an opinion on the matter. Promoting a bot is none of my interest, seeing as I'm not using one, but if I was, I would gain no profit from promoting one anyway if I so desired.
Tough, I don't believe bots devalues items, seeing as a price is determined by the demand, not the supply.
Anyway,
Woho, ladder reset!
I don't support bots. Don't know where you get that from. I haven't even expressed an opinion on the matter. Promoting a bot is none of my interest, seeing as I'm not using one, but if I was, I would gain no profit from promoting one anyway if I so desired.
Tough, I don't believe bots devalues items, seeing as a price is determined by the demand, not the supply.
Anyway,
Woho, ladder reset!
Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
Any kind of item finding will devalue items. The more items there are, the more they will devalue. Botters are MFing more than those who play the game manually, so they contribute more to the devaluation than others.
I haven't said that you support bots, I just elaborated about Blizzard's stance regarding bots as a part of my reasoning.
I don't believe that you don't know it, but that's just an impression again, not something which I can prove on paper. I don't have to, however, as being understood in the right manner is something which you have to take care of and not the reader (excpet for those who want to understand you in the wrong manner). That doesn't mean that you have to be politically correct all the time.
Thanks for clarifying that.
Belief is one thing, but can you provide a reasoning? I provided one for my point of view and you ignored it completely, apart from not providing one for your position.
Any kind of item finding will devalue items. The more items there are, the more they will devalue. Botters are MFing more than those who play the game manually, so they contribute more to the devaluation than others.
Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
So would you say the current market is broken?
So would you say the current market is broken?
LozHinge the Unhinged
Active member
Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
Kris won't thank me for this, but "promoting/supporting the use of bots" is a much wider concept than running a bot personally, or saying that you agree with the use of botting, or even purchasing itamz from a store that runs bots, etc.
An example: hanging out in a game where a bot is active. If the drops are increased due to the bot's presence increasing number of active players in the game, you are benefiting from the presence of a bot. Not only that, it is conceivable that the bot is able to kill enemies that you yourself cannot manage (due to lack of sufficient levels, gear or personal skill, whatever). You have access to loot that you would otherwise be unable to find yourself because of the presence of a bot. In a strict legal sense, you are supporting botting.
This is a more narrow interpretation than most players like, but it is simple. You are benefiting from the presence of a bot, whose use Blizzard forbids. You are supporting or promoting their use, in the strictly legal sense.
You may now strike me with your Implement of Moderation, Kris
Kris won't thank me for this, but "promoting/supporting the use of bots" is a much wider concept than running a bot personally, or saying that you agree with the use of botting, or even purchasing itamz from a store that runs bots, etc.
An example: hanging out in a game where a bot is active. If the drops are increased due to the bot's presence increasing number of active players in the game, you are benefiting from the presence of a bot. Not only that, it is conceivable that the bot is able to kill enemies that you yourself cannot manage (due to lack of sufficient levels, gear or personal skill, whatever). You have access to loot that you would otherwise be unable to find yourself because of the presence of a bot. In a strict legal sense, you are supporting botting.
This is a more narrow interpretation than most players like, but it is simple. You are benefiting from the presence of a bot, whose use Blizzard forbids. You are supporting or promoting their use, in the strictly legal sense.
You may now strike me with your Implement of Moderation, Kris
LozHinge the Unhinged
Active member
Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
Kris is the Trade Moderator and better able to answer than me, but any market that has access to resources that come from outside of established sources can be said to be broken. An example of this is cheap, exploitative labour markets from overseas that break a nation's own labour market set up - destroying home-grown jobs and industries in the process.
Look at Blizzard's idyll of fantastically rare, fantastically powerful runewords. The whole game and its difficulties and challenges are based upon the idea of cooperative play, skilful use of moderately powerful gear. A runeword like Infinity or Grief is a game-changer, initially placed in the game to shock and awe players. The presence of these items as "basic MF'ing gear" has largely "broken" the game as it was originally envisaged. The Pandemonium Event had to be added to give players, with their all-too-common, ultra-powered runewords a challenge. A response to the broken runeword market.
So yes, the market is broken.
Kris is the Trade Moderator and better able to answer than me, but any market that has access to resources that come from outside of established sources can be said to be broken. An example of this is cheap, exploitative labour markets from overseas that break a nation's own labour market set up - destroying home-grown jobs and industries in the process.
Look at Blizzard's idyll of fantastically rare, fantastically powerful runewords. The whole game and its difficulties and challenges are based upon the idea of cooperative play, skilful use of moderately powerful gear. A runeword like Infinity or Grief is a game-changer, initially placed in the game to shock and awe players. The presence of these items as "basic MF'ing gear" has largely "broken" the game as it was originally envisaged. The Pandemonium Event had to be added to give players, with their all-too-common, ultra-powered runewords a challenge. A response to the broken runeword market.
So yes, the market is broken.
Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
Alright, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. Personally I don't believe that the market is broken. D2LoD has been out for 11 years, give or take, so in numbers these runewords you're speaking of would grow either way (speaking NL) and start inflating. Old-time players have gotten used to the game, they know how to play it and what it takes. Hell, me and my mates usually get our hands on something like an Enigma only a few weeks after a reset, and from there it starts spiraling with Hell Forge rushes and what not. So I wouldn't blame it on the bots really. Whats really screwing up the market is players who dupe. Also I find it hard to believe that Blizzard want the "high" runewords to stay holy, so to speak, when they're increasing the drop chance of the higher tier of runes.
And in order to do the Pandemonium Event you don't need all the shiny runewords, and I have a feeling Blizzard was aware of this
Alright, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. Personally I don't believe that the market is broken. D2LoD has been out for 11 years, give or take, so in numbers these runewords you're speaking of would grow either way (speaking NL) and start inflating. Old-time players have gotten used to the game, they know how to play it and what it takes. Hell, me and my mates usually get our hands on something like an Enigma only a few weeks after a reset, and from there it starts spiraling with Hell Forge rushes and what not. So I wouldn't blame it on the bots really. Whats really screwing up the market is players who dupe. Also I find it hard to believe that Blizzard want the "high" runewords to stay holy, so to speak, when they're increasing the drop chance of the higher tier of runes.
And in order to do the Pandemonium Event you don't need all the shiny runewords, and I have a feeling Blizzard was aware of this
Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
I have never traded with anyone ever
I give away everything I find (I only play sorcs and necro summoners, so I actually find a lot of stuff that is no use to me)
When I join a trade game, I just throw my stuff on the ground and leave.
If anyone runs up to me and the trade invite pops up, I just ignore it, keep throwing my stuff on the ground and leave
I don't bot, but I don't care at all if anyone else does
It doesn't devalue my stuff in the least, and if items are devalued, how is that a bad thing ?
if I were to start trading it would just mean the items I want would be cheaper
I look at the "what's your best item found today" thread and I see TONS of stuff I've never found and have never had because I won't participate in trades,
Enigma would be awesome for my necro, but I don't have to have one; I've never even seen a rune higher than Vex
Infinity ? Dream ? ha, in my dreams
Stone of Jordan ? never seen one
some of those items would be nice, but they aren't necessary to enjoy the game
I've just never understood the excitement/fun with trading; to me its the most boring part of the game, so I never do it
my original point was more that item find bots aren't annoying, but I can't even join a public game to drop my stuff on the ground without 100's of spam messages flooding the screen
spam bots affect me, they are completely annoying
item find bots don't affect me, so I don't care about them at all
I have never traded with anyone ever
I give away everything I find (I only play sorcs and necro summoners, so I actually find a lot of stuff that is no use to me)
When I join a trade game, I just throw my stuff on the ground and leave.
If anyone runs up to me and the trade invite pops up, I just ignore it, keep throwing my stuff on the ground and leave
I don't bot, but I don't care at all if anyone else does
It doesn't devalue my stuff in the least, and if items are devalued, how is that a bad thing ?
if I were to start trading it would just mean the items I want would be cheaper
I look at the "what's your best item found today" thread and I see TONS of stuff I've never found and have never had because I won't participate in trades,
Enigma would be awesome for my necro, but I don't have to have one; I've never even seen a rune higher than Vex
Infinity ? Dream ? ha, in my dreams
Stone of Jordan ? never seen one
some of those items would be nice, but they aren't necessary to enjoy the game
I've just never understood the excitement/fun with trading; to me its the most boring part of the game, so I never do it
my original point was more that item find bots aren't annoying, but I can't even join a public game to drop my stuff on the ground without 100's of spam messages flooding the screen
spam bots affect me, they are completely annoying
item find bots don't affect me, so I don't care about them at all
LozHinge the Unhinged
Active member
Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
I agree with you on the damage dupes cause. However, with duping - the HRs have to come from somewhere originally. And it would appear that a lot of folks prefer to be botters than dupers, for whatever reason.
You get that Enigma on the back of someone breaking the rules of the game. I'm not blaming you for this nor judging you, this is a discussion on markets being broken, not morality
As I understand things, having wealth in NL compared to Ladder is like having wealth in a tiny village in Papua New Guinea compared to wealth in say, Dubai. In other words, the economy in NL is tiny compared to Ladder. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
The drop rates of HRs were increased, in part, to decrease the rewards for duping and botting. If you can come by HRs without having to break Blizzard's rules, most folks will choose legitimate means. I see the increased drop rates as Blizzard's acknowledgement of, and answer to, the fact that the HR economy is broken.
You are of course quite right
/cough*brokensmiteandlifetapskills*cough
I agree with you on the damage dupes cause. However, with duping - the HRs have to come from somewhere originally. And it would appear that a lot of folks prefer to be botters than dupers, for whatever reason.
You get that Enigma on the back of someone breaking the rules of the game. I'm not blaming you for this nor judging you, this is a discussion on markets being broken, not morality
As I understand things, having wealth in NL compared to Ladder is like having wealth in a tiny village in Papua New Guinea compared to wealth in say, Dubai. In other words, the economy in NL is tiny compared to Ladder. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
The drop rates of HRs were increased, in part, to decrease the rewards for duping and botting. If you can come by HRs without having to break Blizzard's rules, most folks will choose legitimate means. I see the increased drop rates as Blizzard's acknowledgement of, and answer to, the fact that the HR economy is broken.
And in order to do the Pandemonium Event you don't need all the shiny runewords
You are of course quite right
/cough*brokensmiteandlifetapskills*cough
Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
Actually, the Enigma is cubed from runes dropped in both me and my mates private MF runs. We add up all the runes we find during those looong loooong days of MFing, then decides who gets it :thumbup: But I see where you're coming from, indirectly supporting a bot on B.net is almost impossible.
I think it's the other way around actually. Being wealthy in NL means you have access to all the perfect rolled runewords and uniques, because nothing else matters in NL. Not sure though, I can recall a friend saying something by those lines, but... don't take my word for it :scratchchin:
I can only see people wanting to run their bots even more now when the reward for doing so is much higher. Especially for bots who belong to a itemshop. I feel like players who use bots are doing so for either restocking stuff for their store, or just are pure lazy and don't feel like MFing manually, and can't care less if Blizzard made it so they can get the stuff more easily by legit means. But, on the other hand, I might be wrong since I don't have the statistics :crazyeyes:
You get that Enigma on the back of someone breaking the rules of the game. I'm not blaming you for this nor judging you, this is a discussion on markets being broken, not morality
Actually, the Enigma is cubed from runes dropped in both me and my mates private MF runs. We add up all the runes we find during those looong loooong days of MFing, then decides who gets it :thumbup: But I see where you're coming from, indirectly supporting a bot on B.net is almost impossible.
I think it's the other way around actually. Being wealthy in NL means you have access to all the perfect rolled runewords and uniques, because nothing else matters in NL. Not sure though, I can recall a friend saying something by those lines, but... don't take my word for it :scratchchin:
I can only see people wanting to run their bots even more now when the reward for doing so is much higher. Especially for bots who belong to a itemshop. I feel like players who use bots are doing so for either restocking stuff for their store, or just are pure lazy and don't feel like MFing manually, and can't care less if Blizzard made it so they can get the stuff more easily by legit means. But, on the other hand, I might be wrong since I don't have the statistics :crazyeyes:
LozHinge the Unhinged
Active member
Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
I sincerely applaud you and your friends for playing the game as intended :thumbup:
It is my understanding, from reading these forums , that NL is the "poor relation" to Ladder. These forums may not be representative of the larger Battlenet community, I admit.
Supply and demand is a balancing act. If supply begins to outstrip demand, the value of each item drops - eventually, to nothing.
When botting/duping was the only realistic chance for most players to see top HRs, many players decided to pay a high price for them. By "price", I mean they were prepared to accept whatever they had to do to obtain the rarest runes. I refer to the moral cost of "cheating" (by Blizzard's terms of reference, I make no judgement), putting up with Blizzard's ham-fisted attempts to deal with the people breaking its rules (e.g temp bans, disconnects, roll-backs) ... or even paying real money in itamz shops.
Now that folks can realistically expect to obtain HRs simply by playing long enough - weeks/months, not years (as before) - there will be players who will not want to trade for HRs that they consider may be duped. Why bother, when one will drop for you, in time. This doesn't apply to everyone, as you have suggested, there are always folks who want quick gains regardless of how it's achieved - but it's reasonable to assume that a chunk of players who used to choose to trade for dupes will no longer do so as they no longer need to do so.
As for the actual statistics of this - no, no idea here
I sincerely applaud you and your friends for playing the game as intended :thumbup:
It is my understanding, from reading these forums , that NL is the "poor relation" to Ladder. These forums may not be representative of the larger Battlenet community, I admit.
Supply and demand is a balancing act. If supply begins to outstrip demand, the value of each item drops - eventually, to nothing.
When botting/duping was the only realistic chance for most players to see top HRs, many players decided to pay a high price for them. By "price", I mean they were prepared to accept whatever they had to do to obtain the rarest runes. I refer to the moral cost of "cheating" (by Blizzard's terms of reference, I make no judgement), putting up with Blizzard's ham-fisted attempts to deal with the people breaking its rules (e.g temp bans, disconnects, roll-backs) ... or even paying real money in itamz shops.
Now that folks can realistically expect to obtain HRs simply by playing long enough - weeks/months, not years (as before) - there will be players who will not want to trade for HRs that they consider may be duped. Why bother, when one will drop for you, in time. This doesn't apply to everyone, as you have suggested, there are always folks who want quick gains regardless of how it's achieved - but it's reasonable to assume that a chunk of players who used to choose to trade for dupes will no longer do so as they no longer need to do so.
As for the actual statistics of this - no, no idea here
Re: [confirmed] Diablo II - Ladder Reset October 25
@Lozhinge: If you aren't trading, then botting doesn't affect you personally, obviously. However, trading is a lot of what makes people play on bnet at all, else many of them could as well play in single player.
It has been decided long ago that these forums support the rules set up by Blizzard. I'm opposing Coipre (respectively set a few things straight) because I'm moderating a trading forum, not because I regard it as so offensive that I feel compelled to debate it.
What about a discussion about *your* explanations and *your* reasoning before asking further questions? When will you provide it instead of asking further questions and then just dismissing the answers?
If people can get the stuff more easily in a legit manner, it would still be even more easy with a bot.
@Lozhinge: If you aren't trading, then botting doesn't affect you personally, obviously. However, trading is a lot of what makes people play on bnet at all, else many of them could as well play in single player.
It has been decided long ago that these forums support the rules set up by Blizzard. I'm opposing Coipre (respectively set a few things straight) because I'm moderating a trading forum, not because I regard it as so offensive that I feel compelled to debate it.
