nihlathak viper problem

Twibz

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Nov 23, 2010
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nihlathak viper problem

is it just me or are the vipers in the halls of vaught not actually kicking out poison damage? i have max poison resist with my frenzy barb, infact all my resists are maxed, yet when theres a group of little more than 3 of those things the health of my merc depletes rapidly, and myself a little slower but still lethal...

the thing is, it doesnt even sound like poison its almost a machinegun effect...

im just unsure, first time ive ever run nihlathak and this is a hinderance to say the least,, any help would be appreciated :)
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

ahh the good old tomb vipers.... in my opinion the most dangerous monster in the whole game, atleast for my merc and skeletons :p


only thing I can say is that they are "working as intended" according to Blizzard

:S


PS. it's when you/merc/minions MOVE in the poison cloud that the damage gets so insane, if you stand still its way more harmless... AFAIK. DS.
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

The vipers are buged, if you want to tank them PDR is the way to go as they do damge every frame iirc.
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

Their "poison spear" spell leaves a cloud of poison which is pretty harmless. However whenever 2 or more clouds interfere with each other, damage is applied every time something is checked, i.e. every frame (1/25 second). This means once you walk into 2 or more poison cloud, you will get some (low) amount damage 25times per second. Common solution to this is "damage reduced by x", i think -20..25 total will be enough to completely forget about this issue.
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

Their "poison spear" spell leaves a cloud of poison which is pretty harmless. However whenever 2 or more clouds interfere with each other, damage is applied every time something is checked, i.e. every frame (1/25 second). This means once you walk into 2 or more poison cloud, you will get some (low) amount damage 25times per second. Common solution to this is "damage reduced by x", i think -20..25 total will be enough to completely forget about this issue.


While you hit spot on what the problem is, I think you understated the damage of those things. My 5k hp barb, while whirling through "2 or more poison clouds", died in 0.29 seconds last ladder. Should have done my homework before running keys :p


 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

Their "poison spear" spell leaves a cloud of poison which is pretty harmless. However whenever 2 or more clouds interfere with each other,

It's not actually 2 clouds that interfear. There is an invisible cloud after the initial visible poison cloud. It only applies to you if you move throught it. You won't receive any damage if you can remain stationary for the whole duration of the cloud.

Integer psychical damage reduction is better choice thought.



 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

Sometimes my sorc suffers from a staccato of cloud damage when teleporting into a cloud (e.g. when travilling back through an area in which clouds have been produced a few seconds before). I guess that's when happens when the clouds overlap.

The poison cloud comes with an invisible cluod which deals a small amount of physical damage (25-50 or so), just like many spell-like attacks from monsters cause physical damage in addition, but as poison damage is applied once per frame (1/25 second), it will deal huge amount of physical damage. Poison resistance won't help at it, but PDR will.
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

Due to a bug the clouds play the same sound as a javelin upon collision, so a quick succession of collisions sounds like a machine gun.

The Tomb Viper's A1 attack has a missile assigned to it (viper_poisjav in Missiles.txt) and this attack applies both physical and poison damage, 100% of which is applied by this javelin on collision. Since the javelin is destroyed on impact, this damage is only applied once.

However, this javelin can release up to 14 clouds in its wake (viper_poisjavcloud in Missiles.txt), each of which applies 100% of the javelin's damage. This means that they apply the A1 attack's physical and poison damage on collision too: although these clouds aren't destroyed on impact and they linger, Last Collide is enabled, which normally prevents a missile from colliding with its last target and thus applying its damage or effects again.

There are two circumstances in which the physical and poison damage of the clouds can be applied multiple times in quick succession. The first is when you move and collide with multiple clouds: since Tomb Vipers spawn in groups of 2-3, a single salvo of 2-3 javelins can generate up to 28-42 clouds and moving through them can thus result in damage being applied up to 28-42 times. The second is when two targets are overlapping or standing close enough together to collide with the same cloud(s): since enabling Last Collide only prevents a missile from colliding with its last target, each cloud collides with the targets alternately and thus applies its damage every other frame (averaging 12.5 times per second).

Obviously players have complained about this, but unfortunately these complaints met with the following post on the Battle.net forums (which is long gone, but quoted at the end of the third post of the Things you SHOULD know about Diablo 2 thread stuck at the top of Battle.net's Diablo II Gameplay Discussion Forum):

MicahW said:
Working as intended.
Based on what's already been described, that's probably true from a coding perspective: apart from everything else, viper_poisjavcloud is the only missile which uses the SrcMissDam column in Missiles.txt (this is what makes it apply the javelin's damage), suggesting this column may have been inserted for this specific case. Last Collide probably works as intended, since otherwise information would have to be stored of every single target hit by every single missile for which it was enabled.

However, there is one way in which the clouds are almost certainly bugged (or at least not working as intended, unless Blizzard are evil): they're only supposed to last for 2.4 seconds (60 frames). While they do so visibly, they last for at least another 4.8 seconds (120 frames) invisibly.

To avoid multiple collisions and thus multiple applications of damage a player should stand still, away from any other targets and not move for at least five seconds after the clouds have apparently disappeared. Note that Teleporting with a mercenary or pet(s) won't necessarily keep you safe: if a Sorceress teleports into a cloud with a mercenary, the cloud will still collide alternately with both of them... and if she teleports into multiple clouds...

Tomb Viper AI can also be altered to prevent them from firing their javelins in the first place: casting Dim Vision at the edge of the screen is probably the surest means of doing so, although casting pets within their mêlée range or casting Cloak of Shadows or Mind Blast, Howl, Taunt, Grim Ward, Terror, Confuse or Attract at range are other possibilities.

Another possibility is negating the damage so that it doesn't matter how many collisions there are. Since poison damage is designed to be applied every frame, the damage which is applied by each collision is negligible: at worst, when a cloud's Last Collide is overridden extra frames of poison damage will be applied every other frame, increasing the rate of damage by 50% and resetting the length for which that rate is applied. Furthermore, when Last Collide is overridden each additional cloud should increase the rate of damage by 50%: two clouds will double the rate (+100%), four clouds will triple it (+200%), and so on.

The danger comes from multiple applications of the modest physical damage, which increases by 6.25% with every additional player in Ladder and single-player games in Nightmare and Hell, can be increased by +% Damage and doubled by a critical hit (although these only occur on 5% of collisions). On the flip side, cloud collisions can be blocked and an Assassin's Weapon Block and an Amazon's Avoid and Evade are effective.

No random Champion or Unique Tomb Vipers spawn in the Halls of Vaught, so the only ones you'll find are those that spawn from Evil Urns or in set locations at the end of the halls: if you know how to find Nihlathak, then you never need to encounter them (and it's certainly worth avoiding Champions, or Extra Strong Tomb Vipers that spawn Aura Enchanted and Cursed... and damage of other types can also be added by elemental enchantments). However, Nihlathak himself can be enchanted with Might (level 12 applying +150% Damage in Nightmare, level 15 applying +180% Damage in Hell) or Fanaticism (level 9 applying +93% Damage in Nightmare, level 11 applying +110% Damage in Hell). Below is the physical damage the javelin and clouds will apply under various conditions, rounded up to the nearest point when +% Damage is applied:

Nightmare
Code:
TOMB VIPER      PLAYERS
                1        2        3        4        5        6        7        8
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Normal           23- 31   24- 32   25- 34   27- 36   28- 38   30- 40   31- 42   33- 44
+ 9 Fanaticism   45- 60   47- 62   49- 66   53- 70   55- 74   58- 78   60- 82   64- 85
+12 Might        58- 78   60- 80   63- 85   68- 90   70- 95   75-100   78-105   83-110
Since integer damage reduction is applied before percentage damage reduction (also known as Damage Resist %), if you're cursed with Amplify Damage (DR -100%) this isn't really an issue when no +% Damage is applied if you're equipping DR >43 in an eight-player game (although the occasional critical hit will hurt more unless you're equipping DR >87).

The bright side of +% Damage applying to cloud damage is that -% Damage also does so: casting Weaken (-33%), Decrepify (-50%), Battle Cry (-(24+(1*slvl))%) or Taunt (-(3+(2*slvl))%) will decrease physical damage, although the impact will be much less significant when +% Damage is also being applied.

Hell
Code:
TOMB VIPER      PLAYERS
                1        2        3        4        5        6        7        8
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Normal           42- 56   44- 59   47- 63   49- 66   52- 70   55- 73   57- 77   60- 80
+11 Fanaticism   89-118   93-124   99-133  103-139  110-147  116-154  120-162  126-168
+15 Might       118-157  124-166  132-177  138-185  146-196  154-205  160-216  168-224
Nihlathak can spawn Cursed and Aura Enchanted in Hell, so if you're not careful Tomb Viper clouds can still be dangerous even when copious quantities of -% Damage, DR and even DR % are applied.

Note that Tomb Vipers spawn in the Halls of Vaught 13/27 or ~48% of the time, so saving and exiting to respawn when running Nihlathak for Keys of Destruction is going to be tedious.
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

In Hell, Tomb Viper poison javelins and clouds apply 42-56 physical and < 90 (230*100/256) total poison damage over 4 seconds, so each collision applies 42-56 physical and < 1 (230/256) additional poison damage: even if you have Poison Resist -100%, it isn't the poison damage you should worry about.

When Last Collide is overridden by standing next to or on top of another target, each cloud applies collision damage 12.5 times per second on average, resulting in 525-700 total physical damage and < 12 (12.5*230/256) additional poison damage per second (on top of < 23 (25*230/256) poison damage per second normally applied).

If you decide to charge a single Tomb Viper after it has fired its javelin at you, the javelin and up to 14 clouds would apply up to 630-840 total physical damage and < 14 (15*230/256) additional poison damage. Since Tomb Vipers spawn in groups of 2-3, that damage may be doubled or even tripled.

In an eight-player Ladder or single player game, damage increases to 60-80 physical and < 184 (330*142/256) total poison damage over 5.68 (142/25) seconds, so each collision applies 60-80 physical and < 2 (330/256) additional poison damage.
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

Another possibility is negating the damage so that it doesn't matter how many collisions there are. Since poison damage is designed to be applied every frame, the damage which is applied by each collision is negligible: at worst, when a cloud's Last Collide is overridden extra frames of poison damage will be applied every other frame, increasing the rate of damage by 50% and resetting the length for which that rate is applied. Furthermore, when Last Collide is overridden each additional cloud should increase the rate of damage by 50%: two clouds will double the rate (+100%), four clouds will triple it (+200%), and so on.
Yes. It's phys damage, poison application
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

The javelin and clouds would still apply physical damage the way they do even if neither applied any poison damage, since this damage is applied by missile collisions. In Hell, a single collision applies 42-56 base physical damage and 230/256 poison damage, then 230/256 poison damage would be applied every frame for 100 frames or 4 seconds, resulting in < 91 (230*(1+100)/256) poison damage over 4 seconds. Subsequent collisions would each apply 42-56 physical damage and 230/256 poison damage, and reset the length for which that poison damage rate was applied.

Charging through multiple clouds will result in multiple collisions and thus multiple applications of damage. Last Collide is a bit more complicated. If a missile is not destroyed on collision, it normally makes a collision check for every frame of its existence: in the absence of Last Collide, this could result in it colliding with a target every frame, and thus applying damage every frame (this is how the fire damage per second applied by skills like Immolation Arrow works).

However, some missiles like the Tomb Viper javelin clouds have Last Collide enabled, which normally prevents them from colliding with their last target. Once a cloud has collided with a target, it cannot collide with that target again as long as it remains its last target: a player charging through 14 clouds would take damage from 14 collisions, but when charging back through them there would be no collisions (and thus no new damage) if that player was still their last target.

The problem arises when the player is no longer a cloud's last target. If a single player collides with a cloud and then stops, that cloud won't apply any further damage. However, if the cloud is colliding with two targets then after colliding with target #1 in the first frame it will collide with target #2 in the second frame; since #2 is now its last target, it can collide with #1 again in the third frame, resulting in #1 becoming its last target again so that it can collide with #2 again in the fourth frame; and so on, so that the cloud collides with each of the two targets in alternate frames, or 12.5 (25/2) times per second on average.
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

So if I am understanding this right a perfect everlasting amulet is better than 50% pdr in this case?
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

Yes. A xxx's circlet of life everlasting with Sol rune(s) would be even better, but that might be harder to get. Having both is obviously the best :)
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

Each cloud collision applies 42-56 base physical damage, so DR 56 would always negate non-critical damage while DR 50% would only reduce it to 21-28.

Charging through 20 clouds would result in just 28-56 physical damage on average with DR 56 (5% chance of critical damage, resulting in 1/20 collisions applying 84-112), while DR 50% would result in 441-588 in total.

Two targets colliding with the same cloud would result in just 17.5-35 physical damage per second on average with DR 56, while DR 50% would result in 275.625-367.5 per second.
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

Bone
(Necromancer)
Sol + Um + Um
Character Level: 47 Body Armor
3 sockets
15% Chance to cast level 10 Bone Armor when struck
15% Chance to cast level 10 Bone Spear on striking
+2 to Necromancer Skill Levels
+100-150 to mana
+30 to All Resistances
Damage Reduced by 7

Could this runeword save mercs and players from the physical part of the bugged clouds, by continuously spamming Bone Armor as damage is applied , or at least make a reasonable impact in life expectancy ? [reduce the amount of PDR needed ?]

110 HP [un-synergized lvl 10 ] seems a bit low for it to work though ...

It already has the sol rune[small 7 PDR ]...

Overall it seems like a nice armor for Act 2 or 5 melee mercs - 1/7 hits thei gain 110 [physical] HP on top of what they manage to leech from hitting the monsters...
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

Hm each collision does 42-56 (35-49 with sol rune). If lvl10 armor is 110hp, it will absorb 2-3 hits before vanishing, and it will take 6 hits to recast it. Not a solution.
 
Re: nihlathak viper problem

Could this runeword save mercs and players from the physical part of the bugged clouds, by continuously spamming Bone Armor as damage is applied , or at least make a reasonable impact in life expectancy ?
Unfortunately only javelin collisions trigger Chance to Cast When Struck; cloud collisions do not.

Hm each collision does 42-56 (35-49 with sol rune).
Bone Armour applies before DR, so DR 7 would only be applied after BA had expired (so 3 collisions applying 147 damage in total would cause BA to expire after absorbing 110 damage, then DR 7 would reduce the remaining 37 to 30).


 
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