Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

[Greebo]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

Not sure if that was on purpose or not, so I'll mention it:

Notable Items: The Occulus (yes, I'm serial)

Yes, I know mainstream consent is that Static Field has to be a one point wonder.

Where did I say that? I know you can invest points in static and it makes sense sometimes. But this toon is wearing a what. +16 Lightning skills with medium shelf gear? I mean, I assume you have some skillers here, which you may not, all things considered, but yeah. My critique of adding points to static in a build that flies off +Lightning skills seems much more reasonable than a claim that static is a 1pt wonder. Never said that.

I agree that hitting monsters with Static before you engage them is a good idea. I also think Level 17 Static will do the trick.

I prefer this to a cosmetic improvement of the damage on my backup skill by a longshot. If I was making a sorc that primarily used Frozen Orb.... No, doesn't work, I still wouldn't synergise anything with 2% per point. Sorry. I just would not do that.

See that's mostly this, that I disagree with, very strongly, too. 40th synergy point in PN gives you 2.04% improvement. 2nd point in Ice Bolt gives 1.96% improvement.

Now when I played my Poisonmancer I took CE to about 10, it ruled already. Then I maxxed PN (to get the first corpse fastest), then maxxed CE. You'll probably disagree with that but whatever.

Saying that it's only 2% improvement is not a valid argument. If you never tried a synergized FO you can't exactly know that it's a "cosmetic improvement". It's not, it's a very powerful improvement. FO is a skill that is decent enough without synergy as a backup. It is an awesome backup with synergy and this is one of those builds where it's an option. As I said, 17 Static is fine by my standards.

I guess the only reason I argue about FO synergy is that half the forum treats what you say as if you were a deity, and when you talk about something you never tried in a highly critical manner and I happen to disagree, it irks me a bit. My problem, not yours.

I have gone and removed GA and MA from the build, that was copy&paste from another build that I scrapped because replaying it I found it less fun than I remembered.

Oh, that makes much more sense. I mean if you played it with Strafe and enjoyed it, cool. I knew you didn't play it with MA/GA so I was surprised that you put those in as options instead of EA.

I am surprised that you didn't like EA. I mean, ImmolationA I get - the timer. But EA is like a perfect symmetry to FA, just a bit less powerful and doesn't freeze 'em. But quite enough for CI's.

 

[Nightfish]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

Not sure if that was on purpose or not, so I'll mention it:

Southpark reference.

But this toon is wearing a what. +16 Lightning skills with medium shelf gear?

I don't think I mentioned +16 skills anywhere... So yea... Random numbers much? I think I had +10, tops. I have exactly one lightning skill charm, but that is not the point.

To be honest I have 20 hard points in static field and I regret not a single one of them. My recommendation of 10+ is already toned down so as not to cause too much outrage. I guess it still wasn't enough, eh? If you don't like it this way, don't do it this way. I honestly cannot see why I should recommend anything other than what I've tried and rolled well with? Help me out here if you can see a pressing reason.

I guess the only reason I argue about FO synergy is that half the forum treats what you say as if you were a deity, and when you talk about something you never tried in a highly critical manner and I happen to disagree, it irks me a bit. My problem, not yours.

I'll refrain from the comment I was initially going to make in response to this and just copy and paste you something from my last post:

Frozen Orb, I've tried with and without synergies and I prefer to use it as a backup skill without synergies because it gets the job done easily.

If you have a personal problem with me, that should better be discussed in PMs. I'm not sure what your point is here, exactly? Some people listen to what I say because of my "reputation" or whatever? The fudge am I supposed to do about that? Does that mean I should stop calling things the way I see them and instead water down my opinion with what other people (in this case you) think so that I don't step on any toes? That's not how I roll. Honestly, I think I'm missing the point.

See that's mostly this, that I disagree with, very strongly, too. 40th synergy point in PN gives you 2.04% improvement. 2nd point in Ice Bolt gives 1.96% improvement.

Your argument with my Poison Nova build is irrelevant to me. There's a difference between synergising my primary skill beyond the mathematical optimum and synergising my backup skill. In this case the *second* point in FO Synergy is still *less effective* than the *40th* point in PN synergy. To be honest, I believe you made my case for me there.

I am surprised that you didn't like EA. I mean, ImmolationA I get - the timer. But EA is like a perfect symmetry to FA, just a bit less powerful and doesn't freeze 'em. But quite enough for CI's.

I think it's because I kept thinking "cool, so this does half of frozen arrow's damage and it doesn't freeze things. Cool beans.

 

[Greebo]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

Southpark reference.

Ah. I missed that one.

Somehow I never got into that show. I loved some episodes. Like the one where they had to put a subtitle that what they say about scinetology is actually true and not made up? That was awesome. Other times it was too much for me.

Random numbers much?

2xSoJ, Vipermagi, Occy, Mara's, Visce, Griffon's, 6 skillers. I even took your preferred choices of shield and not levelling to 80, so that no AM is available.

Not random.

I'll refrain from the comment I was initially going to make in response to this and just copy and paste you something from my last post:

Fair enough, my bad. I got confused cause one paragraph later you said "I just would not do that." From which I assumed you did not do it.

(About EA) I think it's because I kept thinking "cool, so this does half of frozen arrow's damage and it doesn't freeze things. Cool beans.

Is the sarcasm necessary?

So for FO to be much weaker than Nova, because it's just a backup skill - that makes sense. But EA being much weaker than FA as a backup - now is that just my silly notion that it would make sense too?

If you have a personal problem with me, that should better be discussed in PMs.

Certainly not. I didn't mean to imply it either.

 

[Nightfish]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

2xSoJ, Vipermagi, Occy, Mara's, Visce, Griffon's, 6 skillers. I even took your preferred choices of shield and not levelling to 80, so that no AM is available.

Not random.

Seems pretty random to me. Why would I have 6 skillers? So far I've got one, and that includes a lot of cubing. And if I did, where would I get resis? And before you bring the "omg, it's a SC thing" argument *again*, let me preemptively state that I never played glass cannons in SC either so I would not include them in what is a list of *my favorite builds*.

Anyway, this is completely besides the point. If I have to pick between writing something that assumes +5 to all skills or something that assumes +16 I know which is my choice. The people that actually have the wealth for that can easily adapt the build to their needs. I cannot fine-tune this many builds to half a dozen of hypothetical levels of wealth.

I liked the build the way it was done. Again, why should I change it if I was happy with it?

Is the sarcasm necessary?

So for FO to be much weaker than Nova, because it's just a backup skill - that makes sense. But EA being much weaker than FA as a backup - now is that just my silly notion that it would make sense too?

This connection makes sense because? Frozen Orb with barely 21 points beats the living crap out of Explosive Arrow even with the most godlike gear imaginable.

FO with 21 points is *good*. I don't need to spend points on it's 2% synergy which in my experience is barely noticable. FO doesn't need help to kick ***. If anything, what needs optimising is aiming it. Having good FO aim or having bad FO aim makes a world of difference. Much more than the piddly synergy bonus.

EA, even tricked out as far as it can be is barely half as strong as FA which also freezes monsters. There is no sarcasm when I say that breaks the skill for me. No fun.

On the other hand, I really enjoy the strafe animation.

Maybe, just maybe, EA is the slightly better build. I'm not quite convinced, but for the sake of the argument let's assume it is. Now if you (re)read the very first section of my guide you will see why I still don't give a ****.

 

[Greebo]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

It's your guide, builds you enjoy. I'm certainly not going to try to convince you like something else.

I brought up some points that I thought might be worth adding there. Or, apparently not.

I feel like posting any comments in your threads is just a mistake on my part. I'll stop doing that.

 

[jiansonz]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

[highlight]8. The Paladin[/highlight]
There is no Paladin build I enjoyed enough to list it here. The fact that I cannot use attackskills on the RMB breaks this class for me as much as the lack of inherent CC does. More power to you if you love the paladin. I love them in pretty much any game except for D2. I know they can be quite powerful and useful, I just don't enjoy them very much.

Isn´t it the other way around - that you wish you could have the auras on the LMB?

What does using the RMB with attack skills do differently than using the LMB?



As for crowd control, the only Paladin I have completed was actually pretty good at it. He used Conversion when packs were large, and Smite for stunning small packs (up to 3-4 enemies). Both skills were maxed, but I think you can get decent CC from them at a lower investment.

 

[Nightfish]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

I'm certainly not going to try to convince you like something else.

Coulda fooled me :badteeth:

I feel like posting any comments in your threads is just a mistake on my part. I'll stop doing that.

It depends on the comment, dude. You're bringing heavy math to a thread where I clearly stated I was listing things I *enjoyed* the most. You can't really counter my fun with number crunching... I think you're missing the premise, here.

Especially with the EA issue.

Yes, in many cases my builds are pretty well optimised. But that's as far as I wanted to go there.

Again, if I wanted to list the 10 most powerful builds ever, yes, this would look different and there'd be a ton of arguments for the builds I didn't include. That's precisely why I don't write guides like that. Thing is, I don't give a damn about who's the most powerful ever. That always depends on the items you have and so forth. What I write is always about telling people what can be done, not what cannot be done. See my MF oddballs from way back. That was all about showing people that you don't have to do one of three builds to MF with some efficiency.

Isn´t it the other way around - that you wish you could have the auras on the LMB?

What does using the RMB with attack skills do differently than using the LMB?

Put attack skill on RMB. Hold down RMB. Now you run and automatically smack whatever is smackable when you get close enough. That's how I like to roll.

As for crowd control, the only Paladin I have completed was actually pretty good at it. He used Conversion when packs were large, and Smite for stunning small packs (up to 3-4 enemies). Both skills were maxed, but I think you can get decent CC from them at a lower investment.

I wasn't happy with it. Conversion takes way too long for my taste. Sometimes you gotta hit stuff several times to convert it. Do keep in mind that my pace is probably best described as frantic. :badteeth:

Good CC in my book is CoS or something like that.

 

[jiansonz]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

Put attack skill on RMB. Hold down RMB. Now you run and automatically smack whatever is smackable when you get close enough. That's how I like to roll.

Ah, this is new to me. Thanks for the info. So you can choose between 'run to this spot without fighting' and 'run towards this spot but hit monsters along the way'?

I am going to try this out, but I do not think it will suit me (for at least three reasons).

I wasn't happy with it. Conversion takes way too long for my taste. Sometimes you gotta hit stuff several times to convert it. Do keep in mind that my pace is probably best described as frantic. :badteeth:

Well, I had maxed Fanaticism and a really fast weapon (40% IAS Harpoon) so I could very realibly recruit monsters quickly (usually on the 3-4 first hits I landed when I could reach the monster but before it could hit me). I do not know my 'average time to convert' from the hitting started, but it can´t have been much more than a second.

A big plus for me is that you don´t need to actually score a hit in order for Conversion to work.

 

[Jcakes1]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

@ Jiansonz I find this technique at its most useful on a frenzy barb (for keeping the run walk bonus going)

 

[Kestegs]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

About 3 months ago I would have been jumping on NF about static as well, but that was before I started playing 1.07. Now of course 1.07 static is not a fair comparison, but it did make me realize the power of it, and how awesome static'ing monsters off screen is! I have never put a point in FO synergy before I made a dedicated FO runner for AT (I love FO/hate blizz) FO is massively OP with no synergies. The reality is that a sorc has pleanty of places to put points, as something can always be imune to your main skill.

 

[Jcakes1]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

I think the other thing to take into account is that NFs Frozen Orb / Nova build is more focused around Nova with Forb being used for LI.
I think Greebo is coming from Sirpoops build which was focused on Forb damage with nova as a back-up for CIs.
I personally would have put extra points in teleport (I love low cost teleport), but that is my personal opinion. That is what is great about this game, one build can be done in so many different ways and each way is as valid as the other. I think some people are missing the point of this guide, it is not a guide on how to build the perfect character it is NF sharing his favourite builds from his 50 guardians (with information on how he built them / ideas on how he think he could have done better).

Edit: @ NF, reading through this again I was disappointed that you left out your dual vile husk frenzier (Minsk?), that is one item I am planning on trying on my next frenzier.

 

[Nightfish]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

Ah, this is new to me. Thanks for the info. So you can choose between 'run to this spot without fighting' and 'run towards this spot but hit monsters along the way'?

Precisely. Actually, what it is, is that I can choose between click and hold once, kill lots of stuff or click and hold (at least) once per enemy. The thing is, I can use the RMB just like I'd use the LMB if the situation demands it. Nobody forces me to hold down the RMB. But I cannot use the LMB like I'd use the RMB (which is good, sometimes I do just want to run without attacking, no argument there).

So yea, with that in mind, I think you can see how playing a pally always feels massively gimped and unnatural to me. The RMB is just so damn convenient when it comes to stomping through casual areas.

I think the other thing to take into account is that NFs Frozen Orb / Nova build is more focused around Nova with Forb being used for LI.
I think Greebo is coming from Sirpoops build which was focused on Forb damage with nova as a back-up for CIs.

Exactly.

I personally would have put extra points in teleport (I love low cost teleport), but that is my personal opinion.

Ya see, and I barely use teleport at all, unless I'm running meph. I'm even so tp lazy that I rely on occulus to teleport me. :badteeth:

That is what is great about this game, one build can be done in so many different ways and each way is as valid as the other. I think some people are missing the point of this guide, it is not a guide on how to build the perfect character it is NF sharing his favourite builds from his 50 guardians (with information on how he built them / ideas on how he think he could have done better).

Quite so.

Edit: @ NF, reading through this again I was disappointed that you left out your dual vile husk frenzier (Minsk?), that is one item I am planning on trying on my next frenzier.

I did? Shame on me. Huge oversight on my part. :badteeth: Could be I didn't include him to avoid being flooded with "omg, use grief, nub" posts. But that would never happen....

Anyway, seeing how you ask about him... Yea. That's one guy I'll definetly add. If I remember this right, I enjoyed him just as much as I did my fleshripper guy (though this one probably wins the heads up due to massive style points).

About 3 months ago I would have been jumping on NF about static as well, but that was before I started playing 1.07. Now of course 1.07 static is not a fair comparison, but it did make me realize the power of it, and how awesome static'ing monsters off screen is! I have never put a point in FO synergy before I made a dedicated FO runner for AT (I love FO/hate blizz) FO is massively OP with no synergies. The reality is that a sorc has pleanty of places to put points, as something can always be imune to your main skill.

I wouldn't build a meteorb sorc with 20 hard points in static, that's for sure. But for a nova sorc it's a natural fit. Spend 65-ish points and your two main skills are done. Beyond that, static just serves admirably. She can even clear large parts of hell at p3 or p5 without breaking a sweat.

Again, not saying this is the only way. But this is myyyy waaaaayyyy.

/sinatra

 

[Wolfgang Abenteuer]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

Again, not saying this is the only way. But this is myyyy waaaaayyyy.

/sinatra

The hell...you don't like soccer and you /sinatra. Are you sure you're European?! :badteeth:

Thanks again for more D2 insight, NF. With all this talk I think I'm going to give your Nova/FO build a whirl. I've played many Sorcs since 2000 and all but one has been fire and/or ice-centric. The one lightning Sorc I did play was, I believe, just after LoD came out so it's been a while. I remember thoroughly enjoying Nova, though.

 

[Nightfish]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

The hell...you don't like soccer and you /sinatra. Are you sure you're European?! :badteeth:

Well I couldn't actually sing this (or anything else). And sinatra surely is not my kind of music. No sir. Just shamelessly used it for the "my way" thing.

 

[Swamigoon]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

My thanks, NF.

Question about your iron golemancer: when it crumples, do you try to harvest particular stuff for another golem ingredient? Do you just resummon it out of whatever metal you happen have at hand? Or do you make an expensive trophy golem, and when its HP bar gets red, TP or S+E to keep it with you as long as possible?

 

[Sidhe1]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

I just like the title of your thread... cookies are awesome, nomnom :wink:

And yeah some of those builds look interesting too!

 

[Nightfish]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

My thanks, NF.

Question about your iron golemancer: when it crumples, do you try to harvest particular stuff for another golem ingredient? Do you just resummon it out of whatever metal you happen have at hand? Or do you make an expensive trophy golem, and when its HP bar gets red, TP or S+E to keep it with you as long as possible?

Harvest? What is this...? I don't even...? :scratchhead:

edit... Oooooh, you mean, like, do I do special runs to get stuff for Iron Golems. Nah, that just happens as I do regular MF runs. Well, for the Iron Golemancer I have a cache of stuff like ethereal windhammers, etc. Stuff I'd never ever use. Any elite ethereal 2h weapons that you can't put on mercs (or don't want to put on mercs) qualify nicely.

That said, I rarely lose my iron golems. That thing is just damn hard to kill, and we (iggy, merc and me) kill pretty fast in turn. Casting attract now and then makes this really safe.

I've got an ethereal "Obedience" lined up, yea, I might save and exit to save that. But really. It's barely ever necessary.

I just like the title of your thread... cookies are awesome, nomnom :wink:

Come back next week for my half-finished guide: "Eating cookie dough with Nightfish!" and the week after that "Terrible stomach aches - let's blame Nightfish!". :badteeth:

 

[Kretschmer]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

One request: can you note which builds are viable when playing untwinked? For example, personal experience has labeled thefishymancer build as untwinked cake, while an untwinked venomancer is nothing but pain and slowness sans -%PR. This would really help us untwinked folks out.

 

[Nightfish]

Re: Baking Cookies with Nightfish (Mini Build Guides)

One request: can you note which builds are viable when playing untwinked? For example, personal experience has labeled thefishymancer build as untwinked cake, while an untwinked venomancer is nothing but pain and slowness sans -%PR. This would really help us untwinked folks out.

Well, you see there's a problem right there. I don't consider an untwinked poisonmancer pain and slowness. -50% from LR is good enough for me. And he's got CE to back him up... Actually this is probably one of the better untwinked builds. Sure, it's no fishymancer (I would actually play him as such until hell, due to respecs), but definetly not below average.

Also, I am no authority on untwinked play. I do it every now and then and I can make an educated guess, because honestly, this isn't rocket science... But yea... I wouldn't want to fine-tune this for untwinked play. Too much depends on luck of the drops.

Generally speaking, anything that uses weapon damage is going to be crappy to play untwinked unless you really luck out on drops. (crappy in comparison to being twinked). Anything with spell-like abilities is going to be half decent compared to that. Frozen Orb with the worst weapon vs Frozen Orb with the best weapon is going to be less of a difference than strafe's worst vs strafe's best.

Take Rabies, for example. That is definetly not the most OP skill ever, but I'd much rather play rabies untwinked than strafe.