Crushing Blow, Vengeance, and Iron Maiden

[Top Hat]

Crushing Blow, Vengeance, and Iron Maiden

It's my understanding that, while crushing blow deals physical damage, its damage is applied before anything else is calculated. Is this true, or is it more complex?

My interest in this comes from attempting to maximize physical damage output so as to utilize Vengeance's amplification to its fullest extent. I also assume that Deadly Strike works with Vengeance as well, but I'd like to be sure.

Also: will Iron Maiden reflect the extra damage from a successful crushing blow? If I'm looking to have a bit of a safety net in the Chaos Sanctuary by making as much of my damage output elemental-based as possible, I'd like to know if that means going sans CB or not. Bear in mind that this is just a safety device; I know that I won't be able to simply fight through the curse with normal tactics or equipment.

I had another question I wanted to ask along these lines, but it evades me for the time being. I'll ask later, if I remember.

 

[Ragnarod]

Re: Crushing Blow, Vengeance, and Iron Maiden

You're right, CB's damage is applied before the weapon damage, I made a search about whether the damage would be reflected by IM and it seems not (here).

Deadly Strike will only work with the physical damage part of Vengeance, but have no effect on the elemental damage it deals. Hope this helps

 

[Norrit]

Re: Crushing Blow, Vengeance, and Iron Maiden

I don't think crushing blow is reflected by iron maiden at all. However it is very likely that critical strike/deadly strike do. I would get some crushing blow (as it really helps taking down bosses to an acceptable hit point total and then you finish them off with vengeance's superior damage) but I'd stay away from deadly/critical strike. Another measure of prevention is to use dr% gear so you won't 1-hit ko yourself (that can happen very easily if you use a weapon like ebotdz)

 

[Top Hat]

Re: Crushing Blow, Vengeance, and Iron Maiden

You're right, CB's damage is applied before the weapon damage, I made a search about whether the damage would be reflected by IM and it seems not (here).

Deadly Strike will only work with the physical damage part of Vengeance, but have no effect on the elemental damage it deals. Hope this helps

Vengeance's elemental damage modifiers are based on a percentage of inflicted physical damage. If my weapon's average physical damage is x, and Vengeance adds accordingly, Deadly strike would not make that 2x, then, but x + x?

The information on Crushing Blow is as I expected, but confirmation is helpful. I didn't think that inflicting a Crushing Blow on a Doom Knight or Venom Lord whilst cursed with Iron Maiden sounded like a particularly good idea if the damage was reflected.

I don't think crushing blow is reflected by iron maiden at all. However it is very likely that critical strike/deadly strike do. I would get some crushing blow (as it really helps taking down bosses to an acceptable hit point total and then you finish them off with vengeance's superior damage) but I'd stay away from deadly/critical strike. Another measure of prevention is to use dr% gear so you won't 1-hit ko yourself (that can happen very easily if you use a weapon like ebotdz)

I always get a good amount of Crushing Blow for my melee characters.

If Deadly Strike does, in fact, amplify Vengeance's elemental damage, it would be very helpful in most situations (read: those without IM).

Would %DR really help that much? Higher levels of IM reflect hundreds of percent of damage back, and if I'm looking at a paladin in the hit point range of 1000-1200, I'm looking at the possibility of reflecting 1200+ physical damage back per hit, assuming a 300-damage hit and 400% reflection. I'm not entirely sure about the exact skill level of OKnights' IM, I'd imagine that slvl 9 (the level at which IM reflects 400%) isn't out of their range.

As far as Breath of the Dying goes, I won't have to be worrying about that anytime soon. :\

 

[Ragnarod]

Re: Crushing Blow, Vengeance, and Iron Maiden

Not exactly, Vengeance's elemental damage is based on your weapon damage. I'll quote the relevant part from Asmodeus Avenger Guide, it's quite detailed and correct as far as I know:

Vengeance is a skill from the Combat tree that is available when your Paladin reaches level 18. What the skill does is add a mixture of Cold, Fire and Lightning damage to your Paladins attacks. So, the end result is that your Paladin will be doing Physical, Fire, Cold and Lightning damage with every strike of his weapon. If for example, you had a weapon that did 100 points of damage exactly. Level 1 Vengeance adds 70% damage of Cold, Fire and Lightning damage to this, so 70 points of each element is added to every attack that your Paladin makes. That’s pretty much it.
This means, that only certain things that add to your physical damage, will also count towards Vengeance elemental damage. These are;

1. - Enhanced or min/max damage from socketing in the weapon.
2. - Min/max damage from socketing in off weapon equipment.
3. - Min/max damage from items or charms.
4. - Weapon and item added damage that reads "adds xx damage" such as Butchers pupil, War traveller boots and Blood Fist gloves.


What doesn't count towards Vengeance elemental damage;

1. - Auras enhanced damage such as Might or Fanatism.
2. - Weapon added damage that reads "damage + xx" such as Grief rune word and The Redeemer. This has been tested in game to not work.
3. - Factors such as Deadly Strike, Open Wounds or Crushing Blow.
4. - Strength. Vengeance works from weapon damage only.
5. - Off weapon enhanced damage such as socketed jewels or Lion Heart, Fortitude or Duress rune words.


These types of effects work with the physical part of your Vengeance damage, but not the elemental parts.

 

[onderduiker]

Re: Crushing Blow, Vengeance, and Iron Maiden

Vengeance's elemental damage modifiers are based on a percentage of inflicted physical damage. If my weapon's average physical damage is x, and Vengeance adds accordingly, Deadly strike would not make that 2x, then, but x + x?

Below is the order in which physical damage modifiers are applied, and when Vengeance's +% elemental damage is calculated:

1. Base weapon damage
2. Ethereal bonus
3. Weapon +% Enhanced Damage
4. + Min/Maximum Damage
<---------------------------   Vengeance's +% elemental damage is calculated
5. Damage +
6. Other +% ED
7. Deadly Strike

The position of Damage + is based on the fact that it's applied to physical damage before +% ED (although this isn't displayed correctly by the character screen), but not to Vengeance's +% elemental damage: a Grief 'EthTirLoMalRal' axe or sword with its Damage +340-400 isn't a good weapon to use with Vengeance for this reason.

If you want to maximise Vengeance's elemental damage while minimising physical damage to reduce the risk from Iron Maiden, you do not need or want to equip any DS.

Would %DR really help that much? Higher levels of IM reflect hundreds of percent of damage back, and if I'm looking at a paladin in the hit point range of 1000-1200, I'm looking at the possibility of reflecting 1200+ physical damage back per hit, assuming a 300-damage hit and 400% reflection. I'm not entirely sure about the exact skill level of OKnights' IM, I'd imagine that slvl 9 (the level at which IM reflects 400%) isn't out of their range.

Oblivion Knights cast level 10 IM in Hell, which returns 425% physical mêlée damage: however, returned damage is quartered against players and hirelings, so that's approximately 106.25%; Damage Reduced by 50% would half that to approximately 53.125%.

A perfect ethereal Breath of the Dying 'VexHelElEldZodEth' Berserker Axe (+400% ED)
with 131 Strength and no other sources of off-weapon +% ED, + Min/Maximum Damage or DS would apply 743-1,471 physical damage to targets with DR 0%, which would result in approximately 1,563 maximum returned damage: equipping DR 50% would reduce this to approximately 782.

With 1,000-1,200 life, that effectively reduces you to approximately 267-417 life since you always have to have at least 783 life to survive returned damage: however, if you could normally survive with 1,000-1,200 life and you actually have 1,783-1,983+ life, then you might start to fancy your chances and start thinking about how to compensate for that returned damage...

Casting Life Tap is the obvious choice, since it heals 50% of physical attack damage and the difficulty penalties and drain effectiveness that apply to % Life Stolen Per Hit don't apply to LT: thus if 50% physical damage is healed after 53.125% is returned, the net loss to life is just 3.125%.

You could compensate for that remaining damage with healing from % LSPH, but monsters with 0% drain effectiveness can spawn in some of the same areas as Oblivion Knights, and % LSPH would be completely ineffective against them: instead, you could try to counter the remaining damage with point damage reduction.

This is applied before DR %, so when you've equipped DR 50% the amount of point damage reduction required to counter the remaining 3.125% physical damage must be equal to or greater than 1/16 physical damage: so with 1,471 maximum physical damage, a combination of Damage Reduced by 92+ and DR 50% would result in healing from LT compensating entirely for returned damage.

Unfortunately, it's difficult (but not impossible) for a Paladin to equip DR 92+ and DR 50%.

 

[Top Hat]

Re: Crushing Blow, Vengeance, and Iron Maiden

Not exactly, Vengeance's elemental damage is based on your weapon damage. I'll quote the relevant part from Asmodeus Avenger Guide, it's quite detailed and correct as far as I know:

Ah, many thanks. Saddening, but informative.

If you want to maximise Vengeance's elemental damage while minimising physical damage to reduce the risk from Iron Maiden, you do not need or want to equip any DS.

Very clear, thank you.

Oblivion Knights cast level 10 IM in Hell, which returns 425% physical mêlée damage: however... *snip* ... although you might have difficulty equipping enough % LSPH to counter both returned damage and damage from other sources.

...Or, I could run for a moment and wait for Iron Maiden to be overridden by a succeeding curse from an obliging OKnight, something especially easily coaxed if one approaches them. The advantage to this is that it does not require runes or equipment that I do not have.

 

[onderduiker]

Re: Crushing Blow, Vengeance, and Iron Maiden

I realise that trying to compensate for returned damage entirely is going overboard unless you plan to run Diablo or Baal regularly (for which purpose many mêlée attackers would be a strange choice), but a combination of Damage Reduced by 50% and Life Tap would give you extra safety if you attack once or twice after being cursed with Iron Maiden, before you're able to react and exploit Oblivion Knight AI to override the curse: there's a massive difference between 106.25% and 53.125% physical damage returned (well, assuming 53.125% isn't enough to kill you), and a net life loss equal to 106.25% and 3.125% physical damage (34 times less).

There are a number of Exceptional Unique items which can be equipped to give you a total of DR 50%, as well as a Treachery 'ShaelThulLem' armour's 5% Chance to Cast Level 15 Fade When Struck (DR 15%, All Resistances +60% and Curse Duration Reduced by 79%): magic wands or daggers with LT charges can be bought from vendors, and you can quickly switch weapons to cast it.