Guide: WS K Amazon

Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

Well, technically you can jab stuff. If you are anything close to the items and skills I suggest your AR will be craptastic. Simply because %ED/AR and +skills don't happen on the same items very often and you won't have a lot of %AR to help you hit. You'll be swinging a lot but not hitting very often. Really, a half decent merc should be sufficient for LI/CI bosses.
 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

Are said:
What is the recommended stat point distribution for this build?
Click to expand...

Enough strength to carry the heaviest piece of equipment (possibly 156 for a Stormshield), enough dexerity for max block and the rest in vitality.

(Bear in mind you can get +str and +dex from equipment so factor that in when deciding how many points to spend).



 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

A very nice guide, this :thumbsup:

I just took Sara through hell (mat thread somewhere here), following this guide and I'll say she definitely has potential. To be honest, though, I did expect the build to be even more powerful, what with everyone saying how it's one of the easiest builds untwinked and you can do hell with a cracked javelin. It might be just my mediocre playing skills, but she really needed something to draw the fire away from her.

It's funny how it takes more time to kill the three last monsters of a pack, than it took to kill the 30 before that. :rolleyes:

Anyway it's fun to play her, I'll be trying other Fishychars later on...
 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

Colorless Green said:
Valkyrie and decoy weren't enough?
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They were, although it was just Decoy for me. I was just saying because I somehow had the impression she doesn't even need them. Anyway maybe I should've put more points in Decoy earlier, so that she'd be able to take a few more hits before poofing.

But your reply really makes it sound like it's only my playing that wasn't strong enough, but that's probably true... :p



 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

You mention nothing of IAS, yet IAS is just as a damage/second increase as +skills (depending how much you gain vs how much you lose, of course).

I was thinking about making a zon in SP, but I don't trade and don't have titan's. Only "increased stack size" javelins I have are +1 jav skills... I do have an eaglehorn, low ED lycander's and low ED buriza (~160) and the runes to upgrade as well. I was thinking of either using eaglehorn for ITD and use physical damage to take down LIs and groups that are too spread out for LF, but then again all those physical damage options seem rather weak. It will beef up LF though with some more synergy power as physical secondary attack will cost ~20 skill points less than FA (just few in crit and ~10-15 in multi with 1 in guided and strafe). Then getting high dex (not on hardcore) and 90 IAS and use the rest of the gear for +skills.

I suppose the physical damage solution though is a lot less effective against gloams due to their physical resist. But I also don't have any bow to make melody from (and I keep anything that can be possibly be semi-useful someday). Not even a plain 3 socket one (which wouldn't really be better than lycander's anyway). At least bosses won't be a problem with low AR since you just use guided on them. Charged strike will also be much stronger with a non-FA build.

I still need to have a razortail to drop though as an amazon without pierce is not a real amazon IMO, and putting points in pierce is asking for trouble ;) I mean there's a lot more I could find, but razortail is a near-mandatory item for zons... It's funny how many (useless) elite uniques I've found but still no titan's/razortail and the lycander's/buriza I did find were low-end.


From the MF perspective, is it really more worthwhile to run WSK or other lvl85 areas? Pindle runs seem to yield a lot more items over time since the time from zoning in the red portal and killing him is about the same time it takes to run from the starting point to the red portal... Heck my sorcs wears 40% run boots instead of 35% MF boots just to run to the red portal faster (pure fire sorc, merc has cruel war pike to kill FI pindle, although I would've made her with blizz if I'd actually plan to use her for pindle farming when I made her).
 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

I made one of these ladies and she is currently my favorite character. As others have mentioned she's lots of fun to play, for me even more than Nightfish's WSK necro build. I use her to run the WSK and kill Baal.

For a long time i didn't play her much because she kept dying. Then someone gave me Tal's armor and it really helped. I have maxed out her lightning resistance (85 with thundergod belt) and use a defiance merc to help me out. I can pretty much laugh at the lightning spewing gloams/souls etc. My merc dies a lot but upgraded equipment will eventually fix that. I have equipped him with an insight polearm to solve my mana problems. I also use decoy a lot. I use +skills (java I think) ias gloves and some rare boots with good resistance bonuses. One of my rings is a frost raven and the other is a rare for its resistances and magic find. I have a +zon skills amulet. She wears an Andariel's visage (for the +skills) but I will probably trade that off for a shako when I get one. I use eth titans and a good enough bow (one of the uniques, forget which). My shield is a myth (+2 skills etc) ward which was a mistake to give her. I sacrificed too many skill points in raising her strength so she could use it. But I had it kicking around and I liked the resistances it offers also.

I use a kelpie snare to kill Baal. I don't know that I would bother trying to kill him without it. As Nightfish says, it's great for screwing him over. I guess it's the 70% monster slow down that keeps him from teleporting around, spawning his clone and stuck in one place where I can actually kill him.

Handling his minions can be tricky. But I generally stay far back from the throne, make sure my merc is behind me so he doesn't die unnecessarily and then cast a decoy infront of the throne, just inside my field of vision, as far way as possible. When it's being attacked I let loose with the titans. The decoy won't last long but depending on the minions they may never even reach me, let alone hit me. My merc will move up to attack them as they approach which gives me further time to react. Also this way I almost never get cursed by Baal. Getting decrepified at the wrong time (while facing Lister and co. for example) can be deadly. Lister himself can be lightning immune in which case I have to switch to bow and hope my merc survives. A better bow would help me kill faster. But his minions also rarely kill me now. It happens mostly because I'm not concentrating on the game.

Frozen arrow makes me very popular on public Baal runs also. A good chunk of his minions never move while the hammerdins slaughter them.

I'm lacking in the + magic find department. I have somewhere around 200, perhaps a bit short of that, too much of it from charms I'm carrying. I would rather save that space for other things, like +skills charms. I am very good at finding +skill charms I don't need (I had a small collection of assassin ones for a while, a character I have never made).

I've read much of this thread but not all. Any other advice that would be help me kill faster would be much appreciated.

Subsidiarity
 
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Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

I haven't dusted off my WSK zon in a while, but if i recall when optimizing her take a quick look at the IAS charts for your weapons. I have in my notes 52% for titans and 75% for matriarchal bow. The faster you can get arrows or javelins out the more damage you will do.

The bow damage doesn't matter (you aren't likely to hit anything), focus on +skills or - cold resist. I used a high % wizendraw (normal unique Long Battle Bow) for a long time until i found a +3 matriarchal bow. This was used to make melody (shael ko nef) and get +6 bow skills on the bow plus 20% IAS.

My zon wears rare 20% IAS +resists gloves, Highlords Ammy (20% IAS, and Lightning Resist), and she has 15% IAS jewel in a shako to reach the breakpoints listed above. That gets 55% IAS with titans and 75% with a matrichal bow. 10 Frame Javalin attack and 8 Frame Bow attack.

I gave her mostly +bow skill charms becuase lightning fury can take care of itself.
 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

Finally got Titan's Revenge off Meph today so am planning on starting one of these Fishyzons.

I have a question regarding bows...

Looking through my stash at bows to use, I have a Kuko Shakaku which is +3 bow skills, is this going to be suitable? Don't foresee anything better coming my way til this char is actually in Hell and tearing up WSK with javelin death from afar.
 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

The more skills the better. therefore kuko is decent but not the best for this build.

With this build what is your way of handling mobs that are spread out? Without multiple shot, freezing arrow doesn't take advantage of its AOE and lightning fury won't release so many bolts and the bolts won't be hitting all the mobs.


I made a zon with an editor to test things out a little:

I gave her 28 LF 31 FA 20 CA max multi 12 strafe 12 critical 25 penetrate, an upped-buriza-like weapon and excessive dex to simulate might merc and AR charms.

For tight packs freezing arrow seems to actually be better than or at least similar to lightning fury's effectiveness, but freezing arrow loses out badly when there are *really* a lot of them. This is due to FA's higher base damage but smaller area coverage.

For spread out packs nothing beats multi. Really. The area coverage and rage are both huge, and deals more damage/second than a LF that doesn't pierce, but obviously isn't as fast as LF when it pierces 2-3 times. Another huge benefit of multi is that there are a lot less physical immunes than lightning immunes. Also if you have a high damage bow guided arrow (or strafe) is probably the best thing a zon has against single mobs that are cold immune.


I'm having a hard time to decide between kuko/buriza FA/multi zon VS LF/FA. LF is just so nice when you can take advantage of multiple pierces but has those huge disadvantages as well (small and/or spread out packs, more LIs than PIs). Reducing the time it takes to clear a big pack is very nice, but if the cost is getting stuck on single stragglers I'm not sure it's worth it. Then again if you want good physical damage you need to have very low HP. To add to it all, razortail refuses to drop and I don't have titan's, but I do have a large variety of bows (all low quality though, aka ~160% ED buirza and lycander's, an eaglehorn which actually doesn't outdamage upped buriza (but has ITD)).
 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

Ockut said:
Looking through my stash at bows to use, I have a Kuko Shakaku which is +3 bow skills, is this going to be suitable? Don't foresee anything better coming my way til this char is actually in Hell and tearing up WSK with javelin death from afar.
Click to expand...

A Kuko will work in a pinch, but you'll be much better off using either a wizendraw or a melody made in a +3 bow. The former is a normal unique that basically everyone has, and as for the latter, it only costs a ko and you can use any type of zon bow as a base - physical damage is basically irrelevant. Given both choices, I'm pretty much on the fence as far as which I'd prefer. My LF/FA switches back and forth.

-CG


 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

I see, wizendraw -35% cold resist + frozen arrow = pain, right?

Not in a position to make Melody yet, only have a handful of mid runes and not the ones I need, playing a strict self found game too so can't mosey over to the trade for goodies.

I have quite a wide range of unique bows and crossbows stashed so am sure I'll find one to suit. :)
 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

Short of melody, wizendraw is probably the best FA bow (yes, because of the big -res). Possibly including melody, that's a subject of disagreement.
 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

synergized lvl28 FA: 1655 average damage.

lvl28 with perf wizendraw:
0% base enemy resist: effectively 2234
50% base enemy resist: effectively 2813.5 (1407 after resistance)

lvl28 with 20% wizendraw:
0% base enemy resist: effectively 1986
50% base enemy resist: effectively 2317 (1158 after reist)

lvl31 (kuko): 1900 average damage. Also possibly 11% faster so 2111 average damage.

lvl34 (+6 bow): 2145 average damage. Also most likely to be 11.1%-12.5% faster (depending on IAS levels) so effectively 2383-2413.

Based on this in most setups it would probably be +6 bow > wizendraw > kuko (but kuko has pierce so if you don't have razortail and don't nearly max pierce I'd say kuko is the best).

Not to mention I don't have *any* kind of wizendraw (nor razortail).

Still wondering about the physical damage VS LF approach, leaning towards the advantages of physical damage at least in softcore where you can get a lot of dex.
 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

Why use the worst possible roll for wizendraw to calculate your comparison, and what is this faster assumption?

Wizendraw has a base speed of 10 and comes with 20% IAS. Socket it with a shael to reach 9fpa (with 55% from other gear). You aren't going to get a kuko going faster without sacrificing +skills.

Gloves: 20%
Ammy: 20%
Helm/Armor: 15% Jewel

I had a 34% wizendraw and socketed it with a shael. I would put it above kuko or lycanders.

Wizendraw is pretty close to Melody in most bows, except a matriarchal bow (it has base speed -10, so can hit 8fpa).

Melody matriarchal bow > High % Wizendraw (30+) > Other Melody > Lycanders = Kuko
 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

The reason there isn't a definitive answer to this is because it depends on your other equipment, total +skills, and the targets you're running. If you're running somewhere where everything has 0 CR, higher damage (melody) will do better. If you're running somewhere with a lot of non-CI high-CR monsters (50-75%) then wizendraw will most likely be better, because, as illustrated by galzohar, there's more of an impact by reducing 50%CR to 15%CR than there is reducing 0%CR to -35%CR.

I prefer melody for general questing or WSK running or whatever.

-CG
 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

Thanks for all these figures. I remembered after I posted that I'm using a Lycander's. I have a wizendraw, but I think it's cold resistance lowering power is 29%. I will have to check when I get home from work. The +4 to skills it gives as well as the other bonuses are quite nice. I will give the Wizendraw a whirl when I get home to see how it compares, but it doesn't compare to Lycander's particularly well in other aspects. I think killing speed is a really significant part of chosing a bow and my Wizendraw may win there.

Subsidiarity
 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

Peppe said:
Melody matriarchal bow > High % Wizendraw (30+) > Other Melody > Lycanders = Kuko
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what I said except I didn't include melody in a bow that isn't [-10]. Also keep in mind that with a high +skill gear setup, getting 55% IAS from gear might cost you +skills that otherwise you would not have lost if you used a [0] bow and only needed 45%. But since it's just a 10% difference it really depends what kind of gear you have available.

I brought low-end and high-end wizendraw numbers, so that you know the upper and lower bound of the possible damage, and make conclusions for whatever %wizendraw you have, so nobody has to come back and ask "I have 20% wizendraw how good is it?"

And again, if you don't have razortail and aren't maxing pierce kuko will probably be better against most packs, but having razortail and using a better bow is obviously preferable.



 
Re: Guide: WS K Amazon

I have Razortail and -35% Wizendraw, don't have the runes for Melody so looks like thats the way to go for the time being.
 
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