Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

[Tamer]

Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?


Making trapper with WW 2ndary attack (no venom just OW... would rather have max traps than venom). In order to achieve what I consider acceptable DR (46%), and acceptable AR for my WW (Im looking at around 10kish), Im ending up with 10 frame traps and 11 frame FCR (65% FCR) while Fade is on. On the occasions that im BOS'd obviously trap laying is covered at 9 frames but more often than Im using Fade.

I hate tweaking my gear for duels because I dont think its fun and also Im in FFA pubbys anyways so I like to have my bases covered all the time with a solid well rounded character design.

So str8 up can I get away with 10 frame traps and 11 frame casts in competative nerd ego rage pubby duel games?

If you insist on pointing me to a guide one thing I noticed about most of the trapper Hybrid guides is the blatant disregard for DR or attainability of some of their items used. I have a good budget and can afford top rune words and good quality gear but some of the rares and bugged items (wizzy gloves haha) used in the guides are just absurd and impractical for me to obtain. I want to play the game and not spend months trying to haggle a booger-dingleberry eating nerd for some piece of virtual gear.

Tamer

 

[TienJe]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

Making trapper with WW 2ndary attack (no venom just OW... would rather have max traps than venom). In order to achieve what I consider acceptable DR (46%), and acceptable AR for my WW (Im looking at around 10kish), Im ending up with 10 frame traps and 11 frame FCR (65% FCR) while Fade is on. On the occasions that im BOS'd obviously trap laying is covered at 9 frames but more often than Im using Fade.

I hate tweaking my gear for duels because I dont think its fun and also Im in FFA pubbys anyways so I like to have my bases covered all the time with a solid well rounded character design.

So str8 up can I get away with 10 frame traps and 11 frame casts in competative nerd ego rage pubby duel games?

If you insist on pointing me to a guide one thing I noticed about most of the trapper Hybrid guides is the blatant disregard for DR or attainability of some of their items used. I have a good budget and can afford top rune words and good quality gear but some of the rares and bugged items (wizzy gloves haha) used in the guides are just absurd and impractical for me to obtain. I want to play the game and not spend months trying to haggle a booger-dingleberry eating nerd for some piece of virtual gear.

Tamer

a couple things:

1. you can easily reach 9 frame traps if you WSM bug
2. 65 FCR on a trapper is fine, but i don't think its worth it to drop down from c/c 102 just to get a meager OW whirl. whirl on a trapper is mainly used for defense, and the situations where you'd actually want/need one are very limited. the time you spend whirling would be much better spent WSG/teleing to create distance, casting traps/mb, or attacking with FB.

 

[Tamer]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

The trade off with the FCR is not the AR but rather the DR. Dual claw setups that reach 102 FCR use griffons for the fast cast. That helmet slot is a key one of the only slots I can get DR from.

Also while I agree that WW is situational and not my main attack, if it doesnt hit the enemy and trigger OW then its not really worth it IMO. Im not gonna make a trapper and just throw a Chaos on her because thats just terrible and embarrassing. I want offensive utility from the WW and that means investing enough AR to actually hit a decently armored target.

Tamer

 

[Sass]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

If you intend to trap and use WW, but not maxing venom, you may be wanting a heavily trap oriented hybrid since you don't just want Chaos on a trapper.

That being said, one point into venom will be recommended and it'll operate much the same way OW will for you. Also, you'll need a fool's as a main to have a high enough ar when not maxing CM or having ar charms.

Max IAS is 9 frames like TienJe said, but 11 or 10 frames will not work. Some feel it's possible*, but 9 frames will be much faster. After WSM bugging for so long, I feel slow as a snail when I forget to.

Max cast is 102 because you can't hit 174 and have a chaos 174 cast can work, but that's mostly on a team char, and I've only personally done that on a fire trapper anyway.

Hitting 102 and keeping decent Dr isn't hard. Fade is your main source of Dr on a sin. With enough skills, you can hit 20+ Dr, which is workable. If concerned, dropping from 102 to 65 can get more skills, dr and res. However, 102 is far more aggressive and you need to play accordingly.

You have to focus a little on WW in order to hit. Hybrids will have an easier time utilizing an OW oriented WW, but they won't do well at 102 fcr (sometimes).












*Areo flips & crap.

 

[Tamer]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

I just dont see how you can get 102 FCR, decent DR and 9 frames traps. Here is a gear setup I had in mind to show you what Im working with this setup yields 46ish DR (Faded), 65 FCR and 9 frame trap lay:

+ SKILLs | ITEM
+1...............COA - BER and 15 IAS
+2...............BP Enigma
+0...............Raven
+0...............Trang Glove
+1...............Arach Mesh
+0...............FCR ring with + Str as 2nd mod
+2...............FCR + 2 skill Amu
+2 (Shadow).Shadow Dancer
+2 (Fade).....Chaos talon + 3 LS + 1 DF + 2 fade
+?...............Fools talon 'UM 'UM - dont have yet
+3...............Torch
+1...............Anni
+1 hard point into Fade
______________________
15 lvl Fade (+ Skills + 1 hard point in Fade)
+8 DR Enigma
+23 DR Ber'd COA
______________________
= 46% DR (+ skills Fade + Gear) While still having 9 frame traps and max resists (Faded) and 65% FCR
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FEW THOUGHTS ON OTHER WELL ROUNDED GEAR SETUPS

NOTE: I was also thinking of swapping out the fools claw and using a bartucs and angelics amu and ring. Reason being that the 20% AR bonus on tucs + angelics should be more AR than the fools. Also the other mods on the tucs (20 str, 20 dex, FHR, +2 skills + 1 MA) arguably trump any other ring amu combo resulting in a net gain. But the problem is that I can only put 1 Um in a Tucs and Im still left with worse FCR.

NOTE: Could use Ber'd Shako instead of COA but then my traps go down a frame because I cant IAS jewel... I guess I can still use that weapon speed equip bug to achieve 9 frame traps. This would result in a less costly build and + one more skill as well (but less resists and FHR). Could just make up the loss of FHR from charms.... might end up doing this.
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SKILLS and SKILLERS

Skill Allocation (Assume lvl 90 character = 101 skill points) - All 4 Lightning trap synergies, 1 point in all shadow skills, +2 points in Mind Blast.... few points left over debating putting left overs into Fade, Claw Block, or Mind Blast. WIil probably add remaining points to Fade to get 50 DR and then Claw Block to get 58-59%.

Skillers - Trap skillers because I want people to assume im just a pure dual claw trapper then BOOM WW with good OW and decent AR and can take damage cause I have decent DR. :whistling:

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Anyways... any recommendations on better setup? Id love to see how you go about getting 102 FCR without destroying your DR. I just dont see how it can be done unless some sort of bugged items are used.

Please advise
Tamer

 

[TienJe]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

disregarding the setup for the moment, take some time to think about whether the WW would even be beneficial. the damage you deal with non-venom, non-CM WW will be marginal at best, and the time you spend whirling could be better spent doing something else.

EDIT: if you want some way to trigger OW, consider using a skill like dtalon that wont affect your claw selection. if you're sold on using WW, just go with a trap-focused hybrid build.

 

[Sass]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

Even if you were to use that ~15 fade (you forgot BC) and enigma, you'd have 23 dr. That's not bad. It won't be max, or really near, but it's definitely good.

NOTE: I was also thinking of swapping out the fools claw and using a bartucs and angelics amu and ring. Reason being that the 20% AR bonus on tucs + angelics should be more AR than the fools. Also the other mods on the tucs (20 str, 20 dex, FHR, +2 skills + 1 MA) arguably trump any other ring amu combo resulting in a net gain. But the problem is that I can only put 1 Um in a Tucs and Im still left with worse FCR.

Don't use angelics--not even on a hybrid. Angelics will give loads of ar, but you miss out on the much needed ring / amulet slots. Raven is very needed on sins, they usually need the other 2 slots for fcr, and even when they don't, things like a mara's or highlord's works much better.

NOTE: Could use Ber'd Shako instead of COA but then my traps go down a frame because I cant IAS jewel... I guess I can still use that weapon speed equip bug to achieve 9 frame traps. This would result in a less costly build and + one more skill as well (but less resists and FHR). Could just make up the loss of FHR from charms.... might end up doing this.

WSM Bugging is by far the easiest way to 9 frame traps.

Look, you seem very concerned about dr, cast speed and what not; habe you considered a max block w/s type? They can hit the max frame, with max dr, max block and 102 fcr. Down side is they lose claw block and WW, but gain more of a different kind of block with alot of fhr.

EDIT: if you want some way to trigger OW, consider using a skill like dtalon that wont affect your claw selection. if you're sold on using WW, just go with a trap-focused hybrid build.

When done properly, they are pretty good, but their going to use 65 fcr if you do that.

 

[TienJe]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

When done properly, they are pretty good, but their going to use 65 fcr if you do that.

i don't see why dtalon requires you to drop down to 65

 

[Tamer]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

TienJe
1) dropping down to 65 FCR allows me to get good DR and AR in a stock setup (and im still not sure if 10kish AR is gonna be enough so this is all theorycraft atm). If you know how to get 102 FCR and good DR and good AR and dual claw and with 4 lightning traps synergized then Id love to see how. Because frankly I cant figure it out. Thats why I was asking if 65 FCR is good enough for a trap assassin.

2) Concerning WW its not just about the OW damage. Its about uninterruptable movement. If I were to use other attacks I can get moved around by their uninterruptable attacks quite easily which makes me lose control of my character. Also another defensive WW is to WW away from the opponent when they are moving in. This makes it very hard for them to get hits in on me without getting clipped by my attacks 1st. I havent played in a few years but last time I played OW was retardedly powerful and abused to hell by pure WW assas. Im assuming thats still the case.

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Sass

1) I dont understand what you mean by BC (not familiar with all the jargon yet). With my current setup I get 46ish DR which I think is very solid.

2) the only reason I like the Angelics is because the AR applies to both claws. With a fools claw the AR only applies to that one claw. If I only have one Um rune in it (one socket instead of 2) then its only 25% OW on one claw because the chaos is never gonna hit. Thats pretty terrible. Angelics allows me to beef up ARs of both claws and also allows me to use other claws besides Fools that have more OW (namely Fury) I can also use Bartucs which has great mods in its own right and can be Um'd as well. A lot of what I do is sacrifice one on one tweaking for just a well rounded solid build thats good all around. Tweaking gear too much is no fun for me and to be honest is a sign of poor character design (having to run to your stash box every fight is boring and lame. Of course you are gonna win vs class XYZ if you use gear that makes class XYZ's attacks uneffective durrrrrrrr... and then people think its because they have a super designed dueller when the reality is that anyone who puts on "specialized" gear should win. Its just bad character design IMO to have to do that. So I like to make my character well balanced all around from the get go.

3) S/W is just not for me. There are only 2 classes in the game that shield is effective vs. Barbs and Fury Druids (bowazons dont count haha). Every other class has an attack that cannot be blocked by a shield. Not to mention that as soon as a Fury druid or Barb gets up close you are stuck to walking instead of running (sure you can still tele but thats waste mana and cast animations which slows down your attacks or spells). Claw block on the other hand suffers no r/w penalty and can block everything except AOE attacks (and even then it can still block some AOE attacks like Frost Orb shards). Claw block also blocks while WW. Claw block is just an amazing skill. I think its that good and I want my character tohave 58-59% claw block.

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I havent played in a few years and to be honest so Ill learn pretty soon if Im way off or not but I think it can be quite effective. If you got lots of AR and OW and DR then its pretty hard not to have an effective WW. Thats great bang for the buck where other classes need crushing blows and deadly strike and harder time reaching final WW BPs etc. Venom is not as great as people think after you factor in resists and pvp penalties if you dont use Trangs + Bramble + Shadow Skillers. I'll probably end up putting one point in the skill anyways. Im making this guy heavy in traps with solid WW (that means good AR and DR and OW). If that means I have to drop down to 65 FCR to do it then Im gonna do it. If its terrible then hey I live and learn but I have a feeling its gonna be rather effective.

just wanted to say thanks for everyone's advice. I appreciate the input and Ive made a couple of tweaks to my setup already.

-Tamer

 

[TienJe]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

TienJe
1) dropping down to 65 FCR allows me to get good DR and AR in a stock setup (and im still not sure if 10kish AR is gonna be enough so this is all theorycraft atm). If you know how to get 102 FCR and good DR and good AR and dual claw and with 4 lightning traps synergized then Id love to see how. Because frankly I cant figure it out. Thats why I was asking if 65 FCR is good enough for a trap assassin.

2) Concerning WW its not just about the OW damage. Its about uninterruptable movement. If I were to use other attacks I can get moved around by their uninterruptable attacks quite easily which makes me lose control of my character. Also another defensive WW is to WW away from the opponent when they are moving in. This makes it very hard for them to get hits in on me without getting clipped by my attacks 1st. I havent played in a few years but last time I played OW was retardedly powerful and abused to hell by pure WW assas. Im assuming thats still the case.

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Sass

1) I dont understand what you mean by BC (not familiar with all the jargon yet). With my current setup I get 46ish DR which I think is very solid.

2) the only reason I like the Angelics is because the AR applies to both claws. With a fools claw the AR only applies to that one claw. If I only have one Um rune in it (one socket instead of 2) then its only 25% OW on one claw because the chaos is never gonna hit. Thats pretty terrible. Angelics allows me to beef up ARs of both claws and also allows me to use other claws besides Fools that have more OW (namely Fury) I can also use Bartucs which has great mods in its own right and can be Um'd as well. A lot of what I do is sacrifice one on one tweaking for just a well rounded solid build thats good all around. Tweaking gear too much is no fun for me and to be honest is a sign of poor character design (having to run to your stash box every fight is boring and lame. Of course you are gonna win vs class XYZ if you use gear that makes class XYZ's attacks uneffective durrrrrrrr... and then people think its because they have a super designed dueller when the reality is that anyone who puts on "specialized" gear should win. Its just bad character design IMO to have to do that. So I like to make my character well balanced all around from the get go.

3) S/W is just not for me. There are only 2 classes in the game that shield is effective vs. Barbs and Fury Druids (bowazons dont count haha). Every other class has an attack that cannot be blocked by a shield. Not to mention that as soon as a Fury druid or Barb gets up close you are stuck to walking instead of running (sure you can still tele but thats waste mana and cast animations which slows down your attacks or spells). Claw block on the other hand suffers no r/w penalty and can block everything except AOE attacks (and even then it can still block some AOE attacks like Frost Orb shards). Claw block also blocks while WW. Claw block is just an amazing skill. I think its that good and I want my character tohave 58-59% claw block.

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I havent played in a few years and to be honest so Ill learn pretty soon if Im way off or not but I think it can be quite effective. If you got lots of AR and OW and DR then its pretty hard not to have an effective WW. Thats great bang for the buck where other classes need crushing blows and deadly strike and harder time reaching final WW BPs etc. Venom is not as great as people think after you factor in resists and pvp penalties if you dont use Trangs + Bramble + Shadow Skillers. I'll probably end up putting one point in the skill anyways. Im making this guy heavy in traps with solid WW (that means good AR and DR and OW). If that means I have to drop down to 65 FCR to do it then Im gonna do it. If its terrible then hey I live and learn but I have a feeling its gonna be rather effective.

just wanted to say thanks for everyone's advice. I appreciate the input and Ive made a couple of tweaks to my setup already.

-Tamer

griffons + ber
2/17 fcr ammy
2x 2sin/3ls claws
trangs
2x fcr rings
spider
enigma
shadow dancers

thats +17 to shadow disc, so fade will be lvl 18 at casting
18 + 8 + 8 = 34 DR, which will be enough. you can get even higher if you manage to find claws with +fade on them as well. i would recommend you going 102 fcr on your c/c trapper regardless of whether you go with WW or not, as the added frame really helps in dodging bvc's and other physical melee attackers.

now regarding WW, the damage on just OW WW is really low. if you take time to whirl offensively, you could have done more damage if you FB or used that time to perpetuate your stun chain with traps/MB. OW may have been effective a few years back when characters were built with inexpensive gear (and i feel like the damage was overexaggerated because it happens alongside venom), but the relative wealth of the players left on the realms now is on average higher. whirling with a trapper offensively is usually dangerous, as it applies less stun/less damage and it puts you right next to the opponent. it has some use if you just want to trigger OW on someone that's running away, but dtalon can do that without messing up your claws/jewelry.

WW used defensively to move can be applied in a few situations, but in the most cases, the trapper should be the one dictating the movements. if you're stunning correctly, you won't ever be in the situation where you need to whirl away to dodge attacks (except against charge/smiters, in which case you don't need the WW to do any damage and can just swap one trap claw for a chaos). against non paladins that manage to get the jump on you, the best course of action usually is to quickly WSG/tele away and create some distance. faded WW on a sin is very slow and will usually keep you in range of their attacks for a longer period of time. but again, to reiterate, if you play the trapper proactively, you should very rarely be in the position where you are unprotected against attacks.

i would suggest you put a chaos on your sin before placing your skills and whirling to see if you like what you see. if you still decide to go with that "solid" ww, then at least place 1 point in venom instead of putting it into clawblock/MB/etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIUlcKZlYUE&feature=channel

that's a video of a full out ghost vs a decently (not amazingly) equipped din. even with ebugged claws and maxed venom, the damage is not all that impressive.

p.s. about W/S vs C/C: clawblock doesn't function when you run/walk, so if you choose to run away from an attacker, you'll have more block if you use a w/s. there are builds available that let you swap between W/S and C/C without requiring too much dex investment.

 

[Tamer]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

1) basically you swap out a COA with Ber and IAS jewel in it and a raven for Griffon and a 2nd FCR ring. So as I said you are giving up DR and AR for FCR. But now you no longer have the "cannot be frozen" mod. So basically your trap laying IAS is gone once you turn blue from cold damage anyways.

2) Also now as you kitted out gear for a pure trapper you have a one dimensional attack (which I just dont want to play). If someone has lightning immunity (or close to it) you are done. Thats what I like about hybrids, as soon as someone starts sacrificing their gear to counter your main attack they become more vulnerable to the other attack. I dont like one dimensional characters for this reason.

3) Im experienced with WW assas from a few years ago and hopefully things havent changed too much. Before I quit I had one of the top WW assas on Europe. Did OW get nerfed? I remember once you hit lvl 90 OW just got retarded. OW used to be based on character level and lvl 89/90 character yielded the final OW mulitplier. OW was just horribley over powered a few years ago and was abused to hell by good WW assas. Maybe things changed since I last played.

4) you sure claw block suffers from R/W penalty? I remember my assa would block magic attacks and arrows all the time while I was running. I assumed it blocked melee attacks but the block animation was harder to see cause of the enemy all up on my junk. Where you get your claw block info because Im pretty sure claw block didnt suffer R/W penalties before... did they change this or was I just horribly misinformed?

Tamer

 

[TienJe]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

1) basically you swap out a COA with Ber and IAS jewel in it and a raven for Griffon and a 2nd FCR ring. So as I said you are giving up DR and AR for FCR. But now you no longer have the "cannot be frozen" mod. So basically your trap laying IAS is gone once you turn blue from cold damage.

2)

3) Im very experienced with WW assas from a few years ago and hopefully things havent changed too much. Before I quit I had one of the top WW assas on Europe. Did OW get nerfed? I remember once you hit lvl 90 OW just got retarded. OW used to be based on character level and lvl 89/90 character yielded the final OW mulitplier. Maybe things changed since I last played.

yes, you lose some DR, but the added speed to fcr really helps you dodge the attacks alltogether, nevermind how much easier it makes it for you to stun/catch opponents. few physical attackers have more than a raven frost to turn you blue, and that will last no more than 1 second. you should be teleporting and not casting traps when someone hits you anyway. swap to a cham'd griffons when you're dueling cold sorcs.

OW hasn't changed, but people got more experienced and better equipped. both me and moe play hybrid/ghosts (we're in love with WW), but on our pure trappers, we both choose to leave out WW. in my opinion, its just ineffective, if not totally redundant.

 

[Tamer]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

you sneaky bastard... was still editting my post

As far as your gear Im just not feelin it. Sure you have 102 FCR but you dont have "cannot be frozen" and you are not as hardy as my setup (not as much DR). Also Im not that guy that runs to my stash to change my gear vs everyone I like to have well rounded character fromthe get go. Your attack is one dimensional (just traps) which isnt how I want to play my character. I still like the idea of dropping down to 65% FCR and a couple + skills to gain AR, DR, WW... more versatile attacks and a harder to kill character and still having retarded trap damage. The melee just needs to be good enough to be respected... thats all.

Once you drop to 65 FCR options open up to make your trapper a lot omre dynamic and harder to counter. Assassins are all about versatility. So many little tricks they can pull. Most dynamic duelling class by far IMO.

Tamer

 

[TienJe]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

you sneaky bastard... was still editting my post

2fast4joo!

EDIT:
2) that's why a lot of trappers these days add fireblast to their arsenal. besides being equivalent to casting MB at 174 fcr, it does decent damage in another element, so it helps to break through immunity. even with high res though, the damage you deal with traps will be pretty close to what you can deal with OW WW, but it won't put you into dangerous positions. if you're looking for something to trig OW, i'd probably stick with dtalon so that it doesn't mess with the rest of your equipment.

4)yea, C/B no longer works when running/walking

DOUBLE EDIT: anyway, its probably fruitless to keep going on like this without having tried it, so just go for it. if you're planning to skill the sin like you posted earlier, you should be able to switch between a regular trapper and a "hybrid" with just a few gear swaps, so you can see which one you like better.

 

[Tamer]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

dtalon so that it doesn't mess with the rest of your equipment.

4)yea, C/B no longer works when running/walking

1) still need AR for Dtalon and to get OW youd still need to have melee claws so why not go WW?

2) You arent making yourself vulnerable when you get up close to casters to WW them. In fact its making them lose control of their character while you get in some free attacks and making them waste time trying to get away from you.

3) SUCKS about c/b. Where did you get this information? When did they change it?

4) Good point about FB.

5) About your comment about the sin setup... yes basically its a pure trapper witha few gear swaps to get decent WW. So I can easily go pure trap gear before finalizing the left over stat/skill points to see which one I like more.

Thanks for the input man... appreciate it
Tamer

 

[TienJe]

Re: Whats the absolute maximum frames FCR and IAS trappers can get away with?

1) still need AR for Dtalon and to get OW youd still need to have melee claws so why not go WW?

2) You arent making yourself vulnerable when you get up close to casters to WW them. In fact its making them lose control of their character while you get in some free attacks and making them waste time trying to get away from you.

3) SUCKS about c/b. Where did you get this information? When did they change it?

4) Good point about FB.

5) About your comment about the sin setup... yes basically its a pure trapper witha few gear swaps to get decent WW. So I can easily go pure trap gear before finalizing the left over stat/skill points to see which one I like more.

Thanks for the input man... appreciate it
Tamer

1. dtalon has a larger AR bonus than WW does, so you'll naturally get a bit more AR. the main point however is that you shouldn't be trying to trigger OW when the opponent is standing still or trying to cast - MB/traps/FB will be much better in those situations. when they are trying to run out, they will have 0 def, so you don't need much AR to hit them. WW still needs you to swap out a claw.

2. against vita casters, whirl will definitely stun very well, but against max block or high def characters, they'll be able to fire/swing back at you while you're whirling at them, as the WW won't hit often enough to keep them in stun lock. even ghosts need to back off certain characters when the stun from the traps dissolves.

3. we've tested it numerous times as of late (because i remembered it working a while ago too), and everything makes contact when you're running.

GOO LUK