thoughts on using Black for kick/traper

A

Astilin

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thoughts on using Black for kick/traper

I realize that last wish/stormlash is the ideal choice, but what about putting black runeword into a scourge? Get 40 CB which is nice, 15 IAS, and boost to vit. Would knockback be a pain? I know that dtalon does a bit of knockback anyway. Just leave your thoughts.
 
compared to last wish/stormlash, black is very cheap and highly accessible. and for its cost, it gives somewhat high 40 crushing blow. so i think it's one of the more affordable alternative out there. the knockback shouldn't be too much of a nuisance anyway=)
 
black flail will get you through the game if you are playing without having access to any items.

obviously stormlash is a better choice but if you are playing with just what you have black isnt horrible.
If you do have at least some budget to make a choice, I'd recommend making a crescent moon phase blade. Price of one Um rune = static + itd which is great for a kick/trapper.
 
Is the static on crescent moon worth it? The CtC isn't particularly high like it is on stormlash or even schaefers, and the problem is it's got no crushing blow, which basically means you have to use gface to get to around 50%. Which isn't so bad for a pure kicker, but a k/t could instead use shako for +skills and still get 50%+ CB from weapon + gores (+ maybe blood gloves).

Now, supposing you have shako and SS, you're up to 45% pdr, which then means you're free to use arach for the belt, instead of string or dungoes. So assuming 50% CB and 45%+ pdr are goals of the build, you'd gain +3 skills and a ton of life/mana by using black/fleshripper/stormlash over crescent moon.

This is all theorycraft, though, I don't have a k/t, but I want to make one, so I'm actually considering the same gear questions. So, is the CtC static worth it? I'm assuming its main use is helping death sentry clean up, since the thing you're kicking is likely to get below 50% before it procs anyway.

In addition, the static only helps vs non-lite-immunes, which you've already got pretty well covered w/ the LS. For a pure kicker, it's great, but I'm just wondering if it's not overrated for a k/t. Thoughts?
 
If i had to choose between static and +2 or 3 to LS, I'd always choose static. If you want to rely that much on LS, make a pure trapper.
 
stephan said:
If i had to choose between static and +2 or 3 to LS, I'd always choose static. If you want to rely that much on LS, make a pure trapper.
Click to expand...

You could turn that around and say, if you want to rely that much on kicks, make a pure kicker :)

Isn't the whole point of a k/t to really take advantage of *specifically* LS (disregarding fire trap k/t's for the moment)? Even a "pure" kicker gets much of their killing speed from DS, esp on low player counts. Besides, those +3 skills also mean you need less points in DT to hit 18 or whatever you're aiming for, meaning more LS synergy.

Anyway, I don't want to be argumentative, so I'm sorry if it's coming across that way. I just want some insight into how much killing speed static actually gives. For stormlash, I can see how it would be quite reliable, but the 7% on CM seems lowish. Maybe it just seems that way, since I haven't used it.



 
My k/t is geared as follows:
rare 2sin, 8 str, 34 life, 14 res all coronet
treachery RW
highlords
tgods
ravenfrost
manald
dracs (about to get!!!)
gore (about to up)
Pdiamond stormshield/black flail (for kicking)
2x 3 trap claws (for trapping)
15/14 torch

I am lvl 79, have 1226 life, do 1-5k LS damage, 65 IAS without weapon and hope to do about 1k kick damage with lvl 23 Talon. Once I can afford an annis, I will have lvl 24 talon allowing me 5 kicks.

I can probably afford a stormlash, but haven't seen one in the trade section so thought that Black might be a good substitute until I find one. Right now I am using crappy fleshripper because I need the crushing blow.

I soloed baal for the first time today and I went really smoothly. I had to drink a lot of pots (life and mana), but I should be getting dracs later today so that will help a lot.

This really is a fun build. I play it mostly like a trapper since 5k is enough to kill most anything. DS blows up everything really quickly. I will be equiping a def merc soon because my defense is rather low. I hope to eventually upgrade to CoH so I have constant resists and can use BoS instead of Fade. Even so, my hell resists are all maxed except for fire and an annis will fix that.

Anyway, thoughts on my set up? Once I get some keys and some more resists charm, i hope to get some key sets and try some ubers.
 
Quick comment - why highlords? Deadly strike doesn't work with kicks. The +1 skills and 30 lite res aren't bad, but you could probably get more from an amulet slot.

Otherwise, seems pretty nice. If you have mana problems trapping (seems like you might with that gear), consider 2x spirit on switch...
 
Lawbringer is hands down my favorite "cheap" wep on a kicker. The decrep to break pi's and offers crowd control, added elemental damage, the aura it just keeps getting better!


Black rocks too though , it's never seemed that hard to get adequate cb from gear. Beyond the cb it offers little else on a kicker. Tried and true for sure.
Fleshripper can be had for pgems and is also pretty snazzy!

I'd take any of these 3 over crescent moon on a kicker and save the Um for duress.

CM's low% ctc static doesn't work on light immunes , and then in hell it only works at 50% it's effectiveness anyhow on what's then within right on top of you range.

Decrep increases damage to everything, and offers a major advantage with 50% slow, plus monsters hit for less damage. So not only are they hitting half as much , they are doing a fraction of it's physical damage. Sorta like a passive pdr boost.

I also believe this allows you more options to untether yourself from the holyfreeze merc and get might, defiance , vigor or really anything else that is available since you'll have all the crowd control you need through the sins skill tree and Decrepify . This is marked improvement you'd have over the CM kicker IMO.

20% Chance To Cast Level 15 Decrepify On Striking (godly!)
Level 16-18 Sanctuary Aura When Equipped (varies) ( knocking back all dolls gloams and OK's = priceless)
-50% Target Defense ( closing the gap in the AR vs ITD on CM and in fact better on the really hard targets which are really the ones you'd have trouble against)
Adds 150-210 Fire Damage (To every kick landed , with a higher more deverse elemental avg damage then the ctc on CM)
Adds 130-180 Cold Damage
7% Life Stolen Per Hit (yaaay!)
Slain Monsters Rest In Peace (nice for d key running)
+200-250 Defense Vs. Missile (varies) (more def on our wep? my what Gravy)
+10 To Dexterity
75% Extra Gold From Monsters

The only thing I don't like is lack of ias.
 
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Lawbringer is the worst assassin weapon ever. Not being able to use Death Sentry anymore is not acceptable. Physical damage is not that important for kickers and the last thing Assassins need more of is crowd control. You never need to use a HF merc on a sin either.

Anyone who says the static on CM doesn't help enough, hasn't tried it.

avm: the thing is that the kicking part is already underpowered compared to the trapping part in a K/T build (except against act bosses) and I don't think that needs to be emphasized any further. A level 24-27 LS with 2 maxed synergies gives plenty of damage.
 
I have the highlords mostly for the 20 IAS and the light resist. A two skills/ all res ammy would rock, but since I don't have one, highlords it is. I don't really use my kicks to kill stuff. I rely on traps to do the mass killing since as I mentioned 5k LS plus DS in 1player games owns. I use kicks for LI and bosses.
Mana is only problem if I get hit by those stupid things in chaos sanc. But since I mostly do pits and WSK its not much of a problem. a few kicks and my mana bulb is full.
 
stephan said:
avm: the thing is that the kicking part is already underpowered compared to the trapping part in a K/T build (except against act bosses) and I don't think that needs to be emphasized any further. A level 24-27 LS with 2 maxed synergies gives plenty of damage.
Click to expand...

Hmm, makes sense, thanks for the insight. I guess I'm coming at it from a SP perspective, so no torch/anni for me. Makes giving up the +skills from a head slot hurt a little more, but I gotta try it it out.

Btw, I just got a pure kicker to hell a1 (level 68 now). I'm kind of surprised by how effective the kicks are. Only have 18 points in DT, using guillaumes/gores and... aldur's mace w/ 3x ort (no pointing/laughing please, I needed the leech real bad). Pretty much everything non-boss dies in 1-2 kick cycles.

I thought it's the CB making the kicks so good, so I took off guillaumes (didn't replace it w/ anything), but didn't notice much of a difference. Then I waited for venom to run out, noticed it a bit more, but still not much. Makes me wonder just how much k/ts need CB. I guess I'll see how it goes a little later in hell. Got a SS and schaefers and upped gores waiting for me...



 
From personal experience the itd on CM helps a lot.
I remember back when I was first building my pvm kicker (later remade into a kick/trapper) I went through hell difficulty with CM fairly easily, then at 82 I switched to stormlash, and found my killing speed actually went down, then Jah'd the stormlash, and killing speed went back up. (of course faster than CM at that point)
Even if you have fairly good ar, itd is going to give you more consistant hits vs regular monsters. Even though CM doesn't have cb% itself, the itd means you will be getting cb to proc more often given you have a good amount of offweapon cb%.
That and procing static off regular monsters is fast despite a low percentage on the weapon because of how consistant your hits are with dtalon. And static + death sentry eats whole screens of monsters at a time.
 
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