Not a guide: some advice for LoD players considering making Classic Hammerdins.

[Crystalion]

Not a guide: some advice for LoD players considering making Classic Hammerdins.

I've been playing D2 since it came out yet I still like to play Classic even though I've had LoD since *that* came out.

Personally I think anyone new to the game should probably start by playing Classic (maybe you should even play D1 for a bit first ).

So I was pleased that Realmwarrior chose his full Sigons++ prize gear in my recent USWest SCL giveaway here (at http://www.purediablo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=716957 ) to be in Classic, even though choosing LoD would have netted him some charms and socketing of helm/body/shield.

Realmwarrior is an experienced player of LoD and hammerdins but apparently not of Classic and he was kind enough to graciously accept my offer of some brief (hahaha, Crystalion, "brief"?!) tips about his new project.

I don't think it is commonplace knowledge that Concentration works at full force for Blessed Hammer in Classic (though most know it's at 1/2 in LoD). As a result a lot of people don't realize that you have to have really great gear in LoD before your BH exceeds the damage you do in Classic. edit: this is reported as inaccurate, please see the note at the end of this post.

It is probably better known that Classic smite damage is awful compared to good equip LoD and that it is harder (takes more slots) to get decent CB% to try to make up for that. But, imo, only the Hell act bosses in Classic high player count games could need smite/CB in the first place but, since they don't regen, your high BH damage and a little tankish patience work just fine.

It is finally well known in LoD that Guardian Angel is a nice piece of equip. (forgive me but in brand new v1.10 I was wearing it on my *enchantress* !) Players new to classic might not know that full Irathas, Darkglow, Hotspurs, Nokozan Relic, Hawkmail etc. are pretty useful in Classic. I think a lot of people don't know that every two Resist Cold/Fire/Lightning native skill points give +1 to the corresponding *max.* resist. Some folks are even still surprised to learn you don't need to pump Dex in Classic to have max. block.

In short I'm saying people are likely not to know:

1. a Classic hammerdin has huge damage output without uber gear
2. a Classic hammerdin has max block sans dex*
3. a Classic hammerdin can easily have all resists at 90%+**

i.e. a heckuva tank--only massed physical ranged attackers trouble me in hell and I stopped bothering to level once I made clvl 77 and thus my skill dist.
(to be fair, I do have to be temporarily cowardly if hit with lower resist or conviction)

* I recommend 3DS tower shield for 57% resist all in hell and Holy Shield takes that up to 75% block for me. Even if you use a Sigon's and "don't need" Holy Shield to max. blocking you should cast HS because it reduces the frames of a block down to just 2. Blink, you blocked. Block lock? What is that?

** antidote and thawing potions can temporarily boost your max. resist +10% and 95% is the max. resist cap, so I recommend thinking about getting a max of 95% in fire and lightning and 85% in poison and cold through equipment and consider investment in skill passive resist fire and lightning.

As an example:
Irathas on: head, ammy, gloves, belt; 3DS shield; Darkglow body armor
weapon = whatever (incl. Gull!), rings + boots = MF, some resists, FRW.
75% blocking (HS, 2fpblock), 90% resist all (more if invest RF/RL passive).

I achieved this setup after a couple of weeks of play, without trading, and then pulled several leechers through Chaos Sanctuary when I did my nightmare quest kill of Diablo at clvl 36. Because I was such a resist tank I quickly ended up in Hell CS and a couple of nights later made my build's level 77/skill points goal.

Obviously I was a little lucky in finding my desired gear that fast, but I started out by making a MF FO sorc and did a lot of nightmare Andy/Duriel runs (quest drop) that second and third week. Other MF builds are just fine too, I'm not claiming FO is good/best (but it's good enough).

So, in summary, keep an eye out for the gear that has +max resist (Nokozan Relics have dropped like candy for me in Classic, for example) and make use of them. Focus more on pumping Concentration (in LoD this wouldn't be as effective) which means that you need to save some early points so that once you hit 18 you can keep pumping BH and Conc both. Don't do Vigor (or its prereqs) until you've maxed BH, Conc., Blessed Aim, (again, this would be a slight mistake in LoD but in Classic Conc. is 2x the BH+ed%). Don't waste points on skills (like pumping Smite or Holy Shield a lot) since you really should consider using the points after you max: BH, Conc., BA, Vigor to help your max fire and lightning resist. (depending on your gear choices at that time).

While 90% resist may seem awesome (it is) bear in mind that 95% resist is *twice* as good (half the damage). Math is funny. :crazyeyes:

Shopping for a 3os Tower Shield needs to be done with a clvl 17 to 19 char. In norm/nightmare I often use Steelclash for +1 Pal skills (has resist all, unlike sigons, and HS makes max. block).

I often use a scepter with +2 Pal skills (these are easy to shop for--because they are typically colored greenish--when you hit Drognan in nm/hell running in and out of town once you are level 65+) and you can look for scepters for specialty purposes, like +3 Sanctuary, rather than blowing points for the skill (FYI Sanctuary will keep ghost type undead boss/minion packs from being able to swarm you... and I just love being able to just *walk* in Hell Durance, buffed with Holy Shield, while using Vigor or weenie +3 Sanctuary to ignore the damn dolls and other undead while finding stairs down to Dur3).

Currently I either use Gull or +2 Pal/+2BH/+1Meditation scepter or a scepter with Sanctuary depending on what I'm doing. I can be a killer tank in Classic Hell with over 160% MF (not that I'd want to, since usually I'm in Hell to rush mules/others, not MF).

I like the build so much I did it twice (and converted the second one over to LoD--has 12 unused skill points at clvl 90 because I've never committed any to Resist F/C/L, or even learned Zeal or Salvation yet). This isn't a LoD post of course but here is my opinion of a good example equip in LoD for the same concept (resist tank): Guardian Angel (Um'ed), Gris helm, Hellmouth gloves, TGods belt... you don't just end up super resistant to poison and virtually triple immune to f/c/l, you actually *heal* from f/c/l.

It works for me. YMMV. Whatever you do, have fun.

edit: deichsela informs me (below) that the LCS(TM) displays extra damage in Classic for BH+Conc but doesn't actually still grant it. I don't doubt that (after all: LCS = Lying Character Screen). But if I were to confirm it by testing then I'd also have to test to confirm the purported diff in monster HPs between Classic and LoD (anecdotally Classic is easier) in order to provide "fair and balanced" reporting... however I retired as a Diablo researcher years ago, so: I apologize for any errors of fact or misleading statements that might creep into my posts--please consider me to have incurable IIRC disease crazy ergo: caveat emptor

 

[deichsela]

Re: some quick notes on classic hammerdins...

Nice informational post.

I don't think it is commonplace knowledge that Concentration works at full force for Blessed Hammer in Classic (though most know it's at 1/2 in LoD).

No it doesn't. That's a display glitch. It's half effective in Classic, just as in LoD.

Might and Fanaticism do not boost Blessed Hammer damage, but also display as fully effective.

 

[Realmwarrior]

Re: some quick notes on classic hammerdins...

Good stuff Cry, thanks

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: some quick notes on classic hammerdins...

nice post, a few inaccuracies but generally good.
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yes, the hdin, does dominate in classic. i'm not gonna take the time to explain the hdin and why it dominates as u have done so. i'm much more lazy.
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resists over 75% make a big help in classic (especially if u got high vit/life). melee physical damage of course is dangerous, but for the most part easily avoidable. there is NO ranged physical damage in the last area of classic (hell cs), so don't have to worry about it. that makes elem damage the biggest threat in classic and that's why over 75% resists help. as u already mentioned the gear for reaching over 75% is full iratha/nokozon, darkglow/hawkmail/vemonplate, hotspurs, jade tan do, anything else i forgot, thawing pots, antedote pots, paladins resist aura skills.
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nice tip about buying scepters with + sanctuary....never thought of that for doing meph runs with. great tip!!!
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smiters, despite not reaching the damage that be reached in LOD (not that any classic thing can reach LOD's metrics anyways), actually still does VERY good damage, and is very powerful. in fact, with the right gear, stats, and skills, the smiter is the exact same as the hdin, except it's a single target'er attack whereas the hdin is a multi target'er attack. see this link (http://www.purediablo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=716827).
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and usually for CB, OW, or other such unique mods, u usually don't need them stacked high, since the attacks/skills u use them with have high frequency of hits.

for example:

ww (whirl wind) (or strafe or smite) and CB (crushing blow) (or OW=Open Wounds or CTF=chance to flee)

just having goblintoe (25% CB) is all u need. u don't need RC (rattle cage) and BS (bonesnap) for ~ 90% CB. the 25% CB work fine for ww, due to the nature of ww. don't get me wrong, 90% CB is definately better than 25% CB, but not at the expense of other stuff.
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monsters DO regen life in classic. maybe not at the rate of ubers, but they definately DO regen life, and this makes them much harder to kill. poison, OW (open wounds), and PMH (prevent monster heal) are very valuable as they negate (shut off) monster healing completely.

 

[fledgeling]

Re: some quick notes on classic hammerdins...

o tempora, o mores - where is this forum going

maybe more posting is better than no posting at all, but when I see:
-people posting guides about characters they have never built
-people talking about iratha as if it was hard to find (and requires weeks of playing)
-LOD players giving advice to classic players
-completely irrevelant advice on barbs in a palladin thread

I dont know how to comment it

 

[WarlockCC]

Re: some quick notes on classic hammerdins...

Indeed a good post for people from LoD wishing to play (a bit or more) classic.

I can see that a LoD player might just drop a Iratha's while I personally consider it as one of my favorite sets.

If you wish I can modify the name of the thread so it's easier to find for LoD players.

 

[Crystalion]

Re: some quick notes on classic hammerdins...

{...}
If you wish I can modify the name of the thread so it's easier to find for LoD players.

Thank you for the offer. Please feel free to do so as you see fit.

The title using the phrase "some quick notes" was intended to reflect my standards about the quality/effort/length of the piece. It is not and does not even pretend to be a guide (or mini-guide).

I assume it was clear from the introduction that an example of the intended audience was someone used to playing D2x but not D2c and also familiar with hammerdins--but putting this (LoD angle) in the title might prevent confusion.

While it isn't a scientific sample by any means I do think it says something significant that while all three of the Sigons++ giveaway winners could have chosen to have the goods in Classic they instead chose to have it in LoD (even though they were not starting a Druid or Assassin and therefore could have started in Classic and converted easily later).

It was therefore my pleasure to offer my advice to Realmwarrior and my belief that Diii.net forum readers curious about Classic might also be pleased to see it here. But you are also most welcome to move or remove the post entirely if it is too LoD-ish for the Classic Forum or otherwise inappropriate.

This thread was a "one-off". My days of writing technical D2 (or D1) posts at the original DSF or lurkerlounge or theamazonbasin are long gone and will not be duplicated here. Given how poorly written most of those posts were (generously forgiven by a dedicated and technically inclined audience) I'm sure that will be a relief to some.

 

[Crystalion]

Re: a thread kinda sorta on classic hammerdins...

o tempora, o mores - where is this forum going

maybe more posting is better than no posting at all, but when I see:
-people posting guides about characters they have never built
-people talking about iratha as if it was hard to find (and requires weeks of playing)
-LOD players giving advice to classic players
-completely irrevelant advice on barbs in a palladin thread

I dont know how to comment it

I quite often don't know how to comment so I usually fall back on a point-by-point quoted commentary (ymmv)...

> where is this forum going

I'm pretty ignorant on that subject.

> maybe more posting is better than no posting at all

Maybe.

> ...but when I see:

I'm not at all certain which of your following comments reference what or where, so allow me to demonstrate my cluelessness...

> -people posting guides about characters they have never built

This one is off-topic, or not? This thread isn't a guide. It certainly isn't about something I've not built. You didn't cite an example so I'm probably just confused from missing context here.

> -people talking about iratha as if it was hard to find (and requires weeks of playing)

Seems reasonable to assume that one is directed at my post. I certainly wasn't stating how long one would expect to take to find Iratha's, merely that I felt lucky to have done my build wish list, including full Iratha's, without trading, in mere weeks. I did not qualify how much play-time was involved in that, which would be very relevant if I had been attempting to convey how long someone might expect the process to take. I wasn't (but a guide should, eh?).

Drop calculators--at a quick glance--show, for the Iratha's amulet on the order of 1 in 140 chance for a (quest/glitch) kill of norm Duriel or nm/hell Andy with MF% nearing 200% in a 1 player game. These are the top-of-list aka "best" droppers for it according to one such webpage.

If one were to play every night for two weeks and do ten such runs each time (which might take some folks an hour or two and seems like a not implausible amount of nightly play time) that would therefore, roughly, on average, net you one Iratha's amulet. An amulet being necessary to complete the set roughly validates the ballpark typicality of the anecdotally related actual time it took me for the whole set.

Of course that means squat. :crazyeyes:

By way of example, my other big hunt was for a Raven Claw. A month into playing (all Classic I should add) I was about to give up. I'd been running and gambling for one that whole time, no luck. My first Raven Claw actually arrived by gambling. But in my second month of play I scored, iirc, five more (mostly in Classic, but I shifted to LoD as well).

Again, if you look at drop calculators and ponder the fickle finger of fate, variance, and deviation, then this isn't at all surprising. But it was frustrating for me, because I've often been much luckier than that in the past.

So yes, I will (now) happily plead guilty to talking about full Iratha's as taking perhaps weeks to find and also grant I would imply that the subjective experience may very well feel "hard".

> -LOD players giving advice to classic players

Guilty. Of course I've been playing both on and off since Beta (thanks to Jarulf shortlisting me when they asked him who should be included) and I *do* talk to myself from time to time crazy... so clearly I'm a LoD player giving advice to a D2c player. Of course I'm also a Classic player giving advice to a LoD. And a D1 player giving advice to D2 and ... well, it just doesn't end, does it?

> -completely irrevelant advice on barbs in a palladin thread

Well, you make a good point in general, and even if I doubt it is about my post here I'd have to say I'm guiltier than most == I regularly hijack my *own* threads with digressions (many might say my posts themselves are digressions). I do sympathize with your using this thread to bemoan the apparent direction of the forum in general, so long as you tell us which parts of the thread are examples for your argument. That way, if you point out and convince us of our mistakes, we may alter our (posting) behavior in the future.

Or you could just shoot us and put us out of your misery. :scratchchin:

If I understand WarlockCC's moderation suggestion correctly, it is possibly more helpful to characterize this thread as being more about Classic for LoD players than as a Paladin thread. That would be a mistake on my part in choosing a thread topic title, and perhaps in picking the Classic Forum to put the thread in. But given his suggestion of emphasizing the LoD angle, I see why a reasonable person might make some follow-up comments on Barbs or WW as appropriate to my original tidbit on CB, instead of treating this as a Paladin thread.

Of course I'm only guessing which part of which post you thought had gone off-topic and you might not even be talking about this thread at all.

> o tempora, o mores

sic transit gloria Diablo...

 

[WarlockCC]

Re: some quick notes on classic hammerdins...

Thank you for the offer. Please feel free to do so as you see fit.

The title using the phrase "some quick notes" was intended to reflect my standards about the quality/effort/length of the piece. It is not and does not even pretend to be a guide (or mini-guide).

I assume it was clear from the introduction that an example of the intended audience was someone used to playing D2x but not D2c and also familiar with hammerdins--but putting this (LoD angle) in the title might prevent confusion.

While it isn't a scientific sample by any means I do think it says something significant that while all three of the Sigons++ giveaway winners could have chosen to have the goods in Classic they instead chose to have it in LoD (even though they were not starting a Druid or Assassin and therefore could have started in Classic and converted easily later).

It was therefore my pleasure to offer my advice to Realmwarrior and my belief that Diii.net forum readers curious about Classic might also be pleased to see it here. But you are also most welcome to move or remove the post entirely if it is too LoD-ish for the Classic Forum or otherwise inappropriate.

This thread was a "one-off". My days of writing technical D2 (or D1) posts at the original DSF or lurkerlounge or theamazonbasin are long gone and will not be duplicated here. Given how poorly written most of those posts were (generously forgiven by a dedicated and technically inclined audience) I'm sure that will be a relief to some.

In my oppinion the thread is exactly where it should be. Since people who are used to playing LoD and wish to try classic are likely to first check here for info.

It would be good if you could offer more advise on this matter as you've played both extensively and don't appear biased towards either. Most people tend to lean one way or another, so it's hard to get an objective view with good pointers.

As for the changing of the title, I can change it to whatever you want, it's your post after all and when your editing time has expired I can make the modifications for you. Just reply to this thread and write it's the new first post, I'll copy and past it into the first post for you.

 

[TraderScope]

Re: some quick notes on classic hammerdins...

Iratha is starting gear in classic, altough it's very nice for starters, it's nothing special. I kinda feel for Fledgeling but it's because I am a "classic elitist" I guess in that matter that I don't usually find LOD player's posts readable nor appealing to me. *grin* This might be informative for some people like Warlock already kindly pointed out, but for some reason usually when I see someone coming from LOD writing and thinking to know anything about classic (or worse, writing guides about it) I feel that he is looking down on classic players somehow.. Sorry but this is how I feel. Welcome to classic *grin*.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: some quick notes on classic hammerdins...

i believe the barb in this paladin thread was mine that fledgling referenced aunominously.

i believe my post (i've re-read it a few times. it helps to read my posts fully 1 time before commenting on them, even though they are complained often as badly written, which i agree with. i am NOT a professional writer so don't expect professional written posts by me. it's folly) shows clearly it was used as an example to crystalion's comment about CB.

i was merely stating that for open wounds, crushing blow, chance to flee mods u don't need to stack them, usually due to the character, build, and skill that the items with these mods are worn with. i happened to use yes the barbarian and ww since it is so well known for my example, but if u looked again at my post, i mention for a paladin and smite too as it is similiar to a barb and ww in that they both hit frequently/fast. so based on all this my barb and ww isn't actually off-topic from the thread.

let me try to explain what point i was trying to make a different way:

when you're smiting at near max attack speed, and the target is stunned, chilled/slowed, and stuck against a barrier (or the type of monster that can't be knocked back), does it really matter if u only have 25% CB (goblintoes) or ~ 55% CB (goblintoes+rattle cage) ? oh my gosh i had to smite a few more times... and it wasted a few more nanoseconds...pfft...see my point ?

this was my point i was trying to make in full detail. (hopefully no more confusion now)

(ta da! i used a paladin example in a paladin thread. no more silly complaints by people who don't read accurately about a barb and ww example which fills in jsut as well for paladin and smite)

 

[TraderScope]

Re: some quick notes on classic hammerdins...

Hmm I wasn't commenting on your post Hege but generally., because I somehow know what fledgling was after.

 

[HegemonKhan]

Re: some quick notes on classic hammerdins...

my offense/upsetness is more with fledgling, found his post a bit rude/disrespectful and uncalled for.

my mistake, if my post seemed directed to u, it was directed to fledgling's post.

i don't mind criticism, but constantly posting that i'm a bad writer (which i am fully aware of) doesn't seem to be constructive, and i find very anoying. i am alway trying my best to write better every post i do, though i do seem to have a particular (and difficult) style/structure with my writing due to how my brain thinks/works it's thoughts. can't change this, as no one can, but with what i can, with every post i am trying to do better so that's its easier to read my posts.

i have no problems with people (each person) telling me i am awful at writing, one time, but continuing to do so, i find very irrating, rude, pestering, harrasing, defamatory and serves no purpose for advancing constructiveness of the purpose of this site ("all things diablo 1, 2, 3") and its members.

someone who is awful/bad at math isn't going to become good at it in a short time. the same is true with writing especially. with every post i am trying to write better. maybe i write a little better or maybe i don't. maybe i succeed or maybe i fail, but at least i am trying, and trying for u guys, the readers, and that is the best anyone can do, is to try. failure or success is fated by the abilities, or lack there of, u are born with (with the limited exception of hardwork/determination/willpower/desire).

if my posts are so awful and unbearable to read, than DON'T read them. and especially, don't than post a rude comment that has no agenda except insultation.

maybe, i'm too nice, but i've taken and believe in an old adedge (i really shouldn't try to use fancy words/vocab, especially when i have no idea how to spell them right, lol) i heard:
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"if u don't have something nice to say, than don't say anything." - wisdom of some old grandparents or even great grandparents.

i beleive this to be a good rule to behaving oneself and having a civil and proper discussion/communication interaction with other poeple.

 

[TraderScope]

Re: some quick notes on classic hammerdins...

my offense/upsetness is more with fledgling, found his post a bit rude/disrespectful and uncalled for.

I can comment on my behalf - didn't mean to be rude against anyone, my humour is sometimes hard to get, I'm just like this.
Let's all be friends now shall we? =)

 

[Fists of War]

Re: some quick notes on classic hammerdins...

Don't worry about your posts Hege, their quality varies greatly but you post lots and often, mostly with good info and enthusiasm, and that's all that matters

 

[Crystalion]

Re: Not a guide: some advice for LoD players considering making Classic Hammerdins.

{...}
It would be good if you could offer more advise on this matter as you've played both extensively and don't appear biased towards either. Most people tend to lean one way or another, so it's hard to get an objective view with good pointers.

As for the changing of the title, I can change it to whatever you want {...}

It would appear, in an attempt to be clear and to avoid unfortunate feelings, that the title should read: "Not a guide: some advice for LoD players considering making Classic Hammerdins."

You are correct that I am not biased in the sense that I believe both Classic and LoD (in their various very different versions 1.00 .. 1.10) are good games worthy of play. I find it to be a fascinating and remarkable oddity in a game space to have a (character jump) portal into an alternate universe (Classic to LoD) open for such a span of time (big changes between 1.00, 1.04, 1.07, 1.09, 1.10 iirc/ymmv).

It is my best guess that they will release v1.13 and reset the ladder in June. Depending on what is in the patch my interest may be re-awakened enough to make some general posts to people starting out at that time.

Thank you for your moderation.

-- Crys

 

[WarlockCC]

Re: Not a guide: some advice for LoD players considering making Classic Hammerdins.

Done. And, as said before, if you want to add to or modify your original post, just let me know.

 

[Arkansaw]

Re: Not a guide: some advice for LoD players considering making Classic Hammerdins.

so-called classic only players would do well to know that dedicated lod players probably know as much about classic, if not more. We are supposed to do endless hellforge rushes to get those unpoofable HRs legitly, remember?

about landing the iratha set, it is probably most direct to do so through norm meph, though it took me close to 450 straight runs that only netted me a single iratha amulet, 3 set crowns, of which only the last is an iratha. Always a pain to land particular items but keep getting duplicates, even of nonetheless useful items (I got way too many darkglows, raven claws and sigon shields, with at least 5 of each). For gearing the mfer, meph drops angelic items regularly (except the amulet, but still I had 2 from those runs) and occasionally chanceguards/tarnhelm. Also, killing sparkfist on the way is good for landing tancreds (that meph can't drop, but that helps the chances of getting iratha amulet), but i only had a few set bone helms (and even one wormskull) and no luck with the boots or amulet.

 

[Technomancer]

Re: Not a guide: some advice for LoD players considering making Classic Hammerdins.

I used to play classic 1.09 - 1.11 and I made a fanatic hdin back then. If what you guys are saying is correct, they must have fixed it since, cause back then the fana DID increase damage dramatically, not just on the LCS, but in-game as well. People used to laugh at me as stupid, but when I was killing things just as fast as a regular hdin, they stopped. Then, when a normal hdin would join up and we just FLEW through Hell CS together, they crapped their pants.

It might not have been in 1.11, I let a bunch of characters expire at times.

 

[YouHaveMail]

Re: Not a guide: some advice for LoD players considering making Classic Hammerdins.

thanks for the heads up. great guide.