HC Barbarian/Paladin thoughts

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SiTro

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HC Barbarian/Paladin thoughts

Well, I tried to keep the title fairly relevant. I'm thinking of starting a Hardcore character soon, and I know I want it to be either a Barbarian or a Paladin. I'm just looking for some thoughts as to which build would be a sensible idea.

This character will have RWM runewords available to him, but it'll be done untwinked and without using ATMA for an extended stash.

Paladin

A range of options here, some flexibility due to the auras. I don't want to play a hammerdin, I tried one of those before and I don't get on well with Blessed Hammer.

Fanatic zealots are probably a bit risky due to IM in certain areas being a major threat no matter how slowly you take progress.

I've tried zealots with an elemental aura before but my furthest so far is up to Act 4 Normal. :hide:

Overall I think a Holy Freeze zealot may be one of the better choices here, but I don't know if an Abbot (Prayer + Insight) build would be viable untwinked and with Charge being a little risky.


Barbarian

A number of skills to choose from here.

Whirlwind is possibly too dependent on weapons found, though having never used the skill I'm not sure I'm in the best position to comment as such.

Beserk is interesting due to the high magical damage it kicks out, but there's an extremely low defense and no leech ability. The defense is offset a little if I can remember to cast War Cry often enough though.

Frenzy would be just that, frenzied. Not sure if that's the most HC friendly skill.

Concentrate looks like a safe choice. The advantage there is that due to Battle Orders being a synergy I could boost survivability and damage at the same time.

Other builds might be a bit more quirky but still possibly viable. Would a singer be do-able untwinked? I have little idea. Perhaps a Double Swing barb, though from what I remember Frenzy is an improvement just about everywhere which takes us back to the above.


I'm not really sure overall and still trying to work out which approach to go with. Any input, advice or comments would be appreciated.
 
I vote for frostzealot for Pally (very safe and not so much item dependent) or a concentrate Barb (very safe if you can endure taking 1 target at a time the whole time).
 
If you don't want a hammerdin, then the freezalot/tesladin is the way to go. They kill reasonably, won't get 1hit Koed by IM, and arent very item dependent.

As for an abbot, you can possibly do it since Insight is easy to make even untwinked, but you might have trouble getting the 4os staff/polearm and getting damage reduction gear will be very hard.

For barbs, all of them are too item dependent imo. They only one that is an okay possibility is a conc. barb. Its killing speed is horrendous untwinked, but it has crazy survivability and wont die easily at all.
 
My recently posted pat thread elemental templar so far to date is deathless @ level 88. However there is a lot of twinkage in him and is critical to his killing speed.
Most melee build pally will have issues with IM hence why tesla/frost are popular for HC, though you have to avoid weapons with more than 100 points damage as a 5 hit zeal attack while IM'ed can still bring the pally down.

Barbs, well I can confirm the concentrators survivability. My iron man build is hard to get killed even deliberately but again, IM is able to bring the character down one hit kill and as xdeathfire said, the killing speed is well, anything but speed.

Beserkers, well I have one level 83 who did the chaos sanctuary last night which I thought would be safe. I was busy slaughtering Ok's with zerk thinking "Ha ha" to the wretched swine, when bang, I get IM cursed and one hit die as if I was using a physical damage attack. Maybe the solitary OK knight I was fighting scored a quadruple multi uber critical hit, doing more than the 3,528 hit points with 12% PDR my zerker had. There where only 4-5 monsters on screen at the time, including the knight who cast the curse, and the one that I was attacking plus 2-3 stragglers fleeing for their bones after being howled.
Hard to explain the death apart from a game glitch. No biggy for my softcore zerker, but it would really annoy a HC player.
 
Known you are not "poor" on itemz. If you don't mind to play unusual build, there are a few I can think of:

Barb: double throw - you don't melee, you have nature ranged skills, plus war cry tree for crowd control. On top you have more life than other ranged build. With the right gears (no need for expensive gears), this is one of the safest build around. I have one in SC, and he was fun to play, and very very safe.

Pally:
conviction zealot - only one point to zeal, getting your damage from elemental damages, and attack fast. I'm gonna build one for HC (just started some times ago).

ranger - use a bow, you have options to choose aura, and a lot of spare skill points. ranged = no IM worry.
 
You will have alot of fun with a simple hammerdin. Very high dmg and very safe, untwinked is no exception. A caster that tank like a, well, a tank! Cheesy but fun IMHO.
 
I won't touch pally, don't know enough about em. As for the barb, I'd say with some careful play almost any build is viable, due to excellent crowd control skills. Taunt, Grim Ward (or Howl, if you are willing to boost this skill) are good. War Cry is a great skill, but will need max points to be really useful.
I don't see any problems with a frenzybarb though, unless you don't like the fast gameplay. Just make sure to always boost BO and perhaps Shout(not if you go zerk though), and you can have fun.

@Asmodeus - Did you perhaps run out of mana? W/out mana, a zerker with IM is suddenly a suicide machine.
 
SiTro said:
Overall I think a Holy Freeze zealot may be one of the better choices here, but I don't know if an Abbot (Prayer + Insight) build would be viable untwinked and with Charge being a little risky.
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Personally, I'd rather have a teslafroster than a pure frostzealot. The latter just feels too slow for me.

After reading SSoG's charger guide, I'm convinced that it should be doable untwinked. I got the impression that for untwinked play, PI's and IM are the main concern for most charger variants.

SiTro said:
I'm not really sure overall and still trying to work out which approach to go with. Any input, advice or comments would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

I'm no expert, but a thrower seems interesting and fairly safe.



 
Thanks all for the responses. I think my order of trial will be something like the following:

Beserker
Concentrated
Frostzealot/Teslafroster
Thrower

I knew of NF's guide before, but I was under the impression it was focussed around a twinked build somehow. Started a barbarian this morning, haven't had much chance to play him as I've had a long day and just back in from a gig. Will see how I get on in the coming weeks. Good luck to all HC players!
 
Merlin The Wizzard said:
@Asmodeus - Did you perhaps run out of mana? W/out mana, a zerker with IM is suddenly a suicide machine.
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Possible. it might have been that my barb had his mana sucked out 1-2 frames before landing the hit on the OK and didn't register on screen (or I didnt see it). But then who sucked his mana away? I had cleared the screen (mostly) as there was mana burners and OK's hence why I used howl to rid the mana burners so I could safely zerk the OKs.

Sitro

If your going to go zerker, may I suggest a slight variation on the usual build. One skill point weapon mastery and maxxed zerk, shout and both zerk synergies, Howl and shout. Reason is that zerk gives such an insane AR and ED bonus, that a 20/1 point zerker gets more AR/ED than a 20/20 concentrator. My zerker is sporting a 5 digit AR and huge zerk damage thanks to both synergy skills maxed.
Shout is of little value to the zerk except as a moron defence buff, but howl is really handy for a HC zerker. It really is a room broom for clearing a crowded area of hostiles and turn them into fleeing targets.



 
I'd go Pally over Barb because of holy shield for safety and auras allows switching between safety and damage as needed.

It's tough that you ruled out hammerdin!

My 2 pure smiters have proven to be a very safe build, especially against big nasty bosses. Pure smite gives a 5 second stun length so with some practice you can stun everyone around you and you also get the massive defence from maxed holy shield and synergy points in defiance. But pure smite is a theme build and not a fast killer, although can be a lot of fun and stylish.

With frost/tesla i'd definitely go tesla. Because you can have a MERC with frost too, and tesla is a better killer, like Muzzz said frost is a bit slow. Tesla is a bit safer as you can hear monsters get zapped in dark corners and off screen so it's a bit like a radar too.

I wouldn't go chargeadin for safety! Things can get out of control real quick and for good killing you need a 2 hand weap so no shield block and less resists. My charges are real adrenalin chars, would be no fun in hardcore if you baby them.
 
Current list:

Beserker
Concentrator
Tesladin\Teslafroster
Thrower
Smiter

Changed out the frost zealot for a tesladin. I have something of a weakness for lightning based characters in this game. :grin:

@Asmodeous: I'm currently thinking of putting 20 points into Howl, War Cry, Beserk and Battle Orders, with points after that (optimistic? :P) going into Shout. As you say, the second synergy doesn't have as much utility. Maybe a point into a weapon mastery if I find a weapon I know will be good for most of the game.

@Paladingo: Hadn't really considered the idea of a pure smiter, could be interesting. Sounds like a fairly defensive build as well, which is something I haven't really tried before.

On the elemental aura zealot, as a backup to the main aura is it better to go with another elemental one or boost the physical side of the build? More physical damage would mean I could use that alongside my main aura, but would be more of a risk against Iron Maiden. Then again, maybe that's the real reason wands exist...
 
SiTro said:
On the elemental aura zealot, as a backup to the main aura is it better to go with another elemental one or boost the physical side of the build? More physical damage would mean I could use that alongside my main aura, but would be more of a risk against Iron Maiden. Then again, maybe that's the real reason wands exist...
Click to expand...

I made a guardian who used Holy Shock with Holy Fire as a back-up. Holy Fire is great, because it makes the early game easy... waiting until level 24 for HS is a drag. Also, you'll get the passive fire resist bonus from those synergy points in Resist Fire (which is more useful, certainly, than the same points in Resist Cold).

One more thing to remember: no need to worry about IM *at all* with a Holy Shock build. Just get a bow on switch, and you'll do all that crazy lightning damage from a same and IM-immune distance.



 
Good point, hadn't considered a bow. And if I used a HF merc then thats kind of like a paladin tri-elementalist as well. That'd be interesting.
 
Could also toss a point into conversion...let the excess monsters keep each other busy while you focus on your targets...as i recall conversion also still drops them to 1 hp after it wears off...
 
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