Any alternative to hammerdins?

O

Onklen

New member
Any alternative to hammerdins?

I've lately been lucky enough to get some drops that allowed me to trade to an enigma. This armor of course opened up for a lot of new very strong and fast classes.

Currently I'm playing a pure lightning javazon with storm, enigma and shako. I do solo baalruns np and Baal dies very fast.

My problem is she is kinda slow to move around as teleport is only cool if you have alot of fcr.

Both to try something new and because I want more/faster :) I started wondering if there are other classes that comes near the killing speed of hammerdins... Plus can move around as fast with teleport.

Am I naive and just need to accept the fact that hammerdins beats everything in pvm, or is there another character I can make that comes near in killspeed?

A javazon quickly kills everything not lightning immune but slows down when having to rely on physical damage. For boss killing charged strike is quite good though.

Or what about sorcs? Can a full tals set with torch and annihilus set up as a meteorb'er blaze through 8 man hell games? Or do I have to sell the enigma and buy an infinity for a lightning sorc?

Sorry about the long rant. My question is simply: Any ideas or comments on strong pvm classes that can keep up with hammerdins and move around with lots of fcr to teleport? There is simply too many hammerdins around, that is why I wanna be different and try a less played class that might reach the same heigths with good gear.
 
How could you kill lightning immunes in 8ppl games by poking them? Their regen would be more than your damage.

very few builds solo 8ppl "quickly" as compared to most builds. One of them, like you've tried, is the pure lightning Javazon + Infinity.

With only Enigma and no Infinity, Hammerdin is by far the fastest and safest. No doubt nothing comes close for PvM to a hammerdin:
No Immunes (well, one monster in act 3)
Huge damage
No need for infinity
Easy max resists with shields
Full block with little dex = lots of life
Huge defense = never get hit
Good FCR

Javazon with Infinity may actually be better for baal runs, as CS on baal takes him down in about 15 seconds in an 8ppl game, which gains a huge amount of time on other builds

Trapper with Infinity is similar to javazon, though slightly slower against mobs and much slower against bosses. Baal in an 8ppl game is very slow.

Lightning Sorc + infinity is another, although I find very expensive to make and prone to some insta-death situations.

You can see the trend: infinity + lightning can solo 8ppl games. Physical builds are subject to IM ownage, and all other elements require dual trees for immunities you can't break, meaning low damage and tough 8ppl games. Hammerdin pretty much requires Enigma and he won't die and will kill with the best of the best. He's mediocre on boss kill speed, although some people line up some CB + 1pt smite and he tears through bosses faster than javazon CS + Infinity.
 
I find D2 fun when dupewords aren't in play, i.e. fresh ladder. This isn't popular with folks looking for the one superbuild to 'own 8 player hell Baal runs solo with ease'.

Never understood those playing multiplayer who create uber solo supercharacters; doesn't that defeat the purpose of b.net? Traders don't really care where items come from; might as well just play single player on /p 8 and import a setup, no?

I suggest trying some untwinked builds that rely on others (teamwork) to survive - it's much more fulfilling than soloing random public games.
 
I certainly agree Socialism. While I was away from D2 for a few years I played a lot of WoW. The teamwork required in instances and high end raiding was what made the playing experience so great imo.

The problem with D2 is teamplay is not required. It not doubt makes the game more fun but there is no need for a dedicated healer, buffer, tank etc. Most classes can solo the game making teamplay quite a differen experience compared to other games.

For that reason D2 is something I often play when my friends in multiplayer games are not around. Though I do enjoy team games and that is why I would like to stand out in the crowd and not be another of the 1 million hammerdins around.

Anyone have experience with meteorbs with full tals set? I know they wont breeze through multiplayer games but are they decent for going everywhere in the game doing both bosses and areas with medium mf equiped at the same time? Or do they loose a lot of killspeed by not using fully synergized skill trees?
 
I love playing more of a support character in Multiplayer. My conviction paladin is probably one of my favorites. While he is not bad on his own, the conviction aura is awesome with a zon or sorc in the group.
 
My fav char to play in Dii has always been a pure singing barb just because its such a good group build and I agree with Socialism...WTF are you doing on b.net if you just want to play solo.

The only time i play this game solo is when none of my friends are on and i dont feel like risking tppk heart attacks by playing with random people...
 
Socialism said:
I suggest trying some untwinked builds that rely on others (teamwork) to survive - it's much more fulfilling than soloing random public games.
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That's your opinion. If anyone hasn't tried "uber" builds, then I recommend it. I play with a group of friends every single day, and we all strive to be the best our class can be. Just because you have an uber build doesn't mean you have no fun playing with friends. On the contrary, I have much more fun when I can contribute the most.

What is the most "fulfilling" is going to vary from person to person. The reason I hate WoW was because I was so dependent on others; even with the best equipment I had to sit there and hit a group of mobs for a couple minutes while someone healed me. The best part about Diablo for me is that I stand in the game like a god as enemies run to me, then I unleash hell and in seconds the entire screen is dead. That's fulfilling.



 
d00m2k said:
That's your opinion.
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Clearly.
What is the most "fulfilling" is going to vary from person to person. The reason I hate WoW was because I was so dependent on others; even with the best equipment I had to sit there and hit a group of mobs for a couple minutes while someone healed me. The best part about Diablo for me is that I stand in the game like a god as enemies run to me, then I unleash hell and in seconds the entire screen is dead. That's fulfilling.
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Okay, fair enough -- uber builds can play with other uber builds or non-uber builds in the same game, but no teamwork is actually necessary.

Do enigmadins/infinity light sorcs/eBoTDers/etc in ever need to consider playstyle or tactics in order to maximize survival or complement damage of the rest of the party? Would playing them in a group game differ at all from their regular solo playstyle? Unlikely.

What you consider the "best part" of Diablo is basically godmode + infinite mana/dmg. Where's the fun in being invincible? Sounds too much like softcore to me :> Boring.



 
Onklen are you using "teleporting weapons" on switch? a wizzy or spectral shard + any good caster sheild should let you teleport a lot faster.

Make sure you use a knife and not a sword because amazon block rates are extremely slow with anything other than throwing spear or dagger.
 
Socialism said:
Do enigmadins/infinity light sorcs/eBoTDers/etc in ever need to consider playstyle or tactics in order to maximize survival
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Uh, yes. Enigmadin's have maximum resists, maximum block, and high life. Ok, so they can tank alot of hits. However, the proximity required to cast a hammer on a monster is basically blank point. Meaning that you are required to either tank the monster you are attacking, or cast stray hammers and hope that they hit. If you have ever attacked conviction Ventar the Unholy in an 8 player game, or even solo, you would understand. Sure you can teleport to Baal basically unharmed, but you can't be a moron about it. It's hardcore, you still need to use caution, especially with such a high end runeword in the balance. One slip and your Jah Ber are gone (or looted).

Infinity Lightning sorceresses also require caution, as to not teleport into mobs, or get swarmed. Sure, with stormshield you can block and tank some, but it's still a sorceress. You have to still be cautious as to not teleport straight into fanatacism death lords with amplify damage (which would **** a hammerdin as well).

EBotd characters (melee, unless blade fury sin) have to be tanks like the hammerdin, but also have to constantly be on the lookout for Oblivion Knights (you know why).

Also don't forget the amp/fe bug in hell, and fe bug in nightmare.

My point, with a super duper uber geared character, that is only a greater incentive to use even more caution than you would with a crap character. A crap character is easily replaced. Chant leveling, some friends to baal or chaos you, and you are back up. Uber geared characters take some time to build and collect gear for (assuming you don't buy with money).



 
Regicide said:
Uh
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While it's cute you've assumed I hadn't already built an indestructible Hammerdin that tanked cursed FE, FE/CE and FE/LE Lister/Ancient (NM/Hell) deaths for fun and moonwalked through ES Conv+LR Gloam/OK WSK combos in 8 player games easily, by responding to half a sentence (thus changing its meaning) with curiously public tactics, you've added little to the friendly debate here.

On a side note; Oblivion Knights didn't stop me from active melee on my untwinked Frenzy barbarian; now that he's twinked, even less-so. Bounce -decrep- trounce.

I'd much rather lose a super geared character whom I can enchant-to-Baal in 45 minutes than a character that sold throwing knives early in their career to help slowly build up towards the Grinding Flamberge of Swiftness I ended up with at level 70...

With my aggressive playstyle, I tune my 'uber' builds more towards durability and efficiency than damage/mf, complementing my recklessness. And no, haven't killed a super character yet! (then again, it's usually weeks before I'm actually done planning 'em)



 
You know , each to their own here. I belive most of us fall somewhere inbetween/ Twinked vs untwinked, solo/group ... We're getting OT here. I think the op , asked for a fairly fast killing hell build that is group friendly and has access to an above average gear selection.

You can go windy , which is very powerful with tele/summon stacking. These do respectable damage, play a bit like a hammerdin , but are more fun since they have a a little more to offer in variation. Killing speed slows in big games.. Doing phy damage Pi's will suck/slow and boss killing without cb/ow is time consuming

IMO , make a summoner ... with tele and other nice gear options they can run anything with ease, are fairly safe and have the potential for very high mf and kill speed.. (use a pride/might merc , hold Faith bow on the nec and dominate!
tele stacking summoner > whatever you pounce on

not the most popular way to go, But I LOVE my hammer/zeal pally.. rocking about 6-7K damage on my hammers and melee damage with huge cb.. He tanks better then most hammers, kills bosses faster and offer more diverse playstyle using zeal too. Maggot layer on a pure hammer? LOL.... Zeal ftw there :)


A high end bezerker can deal more magic damage then ANY hammerdin.. Except for being one at a time... They kill fast. Couple this with pdr and you have build that can be played half asleep with the other half in the bag , only requires* 1 hr and a bunch of sol's (plus vendor shopping)


just a couple suggestions..

I like untwinked play if its in a group setting.. I generally don't care for this as I am at the point where I know I can beat anything in the game untwinked with most any build.. So instead of wasting time rolling mods from the vendors and pseudo mf'ing , I can be on my way with items I've earned from trade/findings. This means less wasted stat points and a more survivable HC toon.:soapbox:
 
I gotta agree with Socialism on this.

I find mega builds to be well. . .kinda boring.

Whereas specialized support builds are much more satisfying in multiplayer gaming.
 
Claps for Shon. I'm starting an untwinked holy shock throw smiter.. going to see how far I can take him. I haven't build one since 1.09, but even he was twinked with a sexy Cruel Harpoon of Quickness, HoZ, et cetera.

Oh, right, the Enigma. Welp, I'd make a hammerdin, get bored of him and strip him, then make a barb, zerk/conc/ww, whatever you feel like. With Enigma they are a lot of fun, plus barbs have the same FCR rates as sorcs. They don't clear 8 player games, but they definitely get style points in my book.

Lucky
 
LuckyDwarf said:
Claps for Shon. I'm starting an untwinked holy shock throw smiter.. going to see how far I can take him. I haven't build one since 1.09, but even he was twinked with a sexy Cruel Harpoon of Quickness, HoZ, et cetera.

Oh, right, the Enigma. Welp, I'd make a hammerdin, get bored of him and strip him, then make a barb, zerk/conc/ww, whatever you feel like. With Enigma they are a lot of fun, plus barbs have the same FCR rates as sorcs. They don't clear 8 player games, but they definitely get style points in my book.

Lucky
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Yeah, if I had a spare enigma, I'd toss it on a Zerker with Wiz/wiz/10 fcr ring on switch and pwnify all!



 
Maybe only a hammerdin can be unkillable, but every other class can be insta-killed. And we're talking about alternatives to hammerdins.

Plus, soloing an 8ppl CS or WSK is not easy, even with a javazon and infinity. My javazon has 1250 HP and infinity, and multiple times I've escaped with under 200 health.

Plus, you're never going to die with 7 other players around you. I think it's safer to play untwinked with 7 friends than twinked alone in an 8ppl game.

Basically, there comes a talent level when you aren't going to die except to a few random events, no matter what your gear.

Besides, everyone knows those who need teammates are just weak and can't do it alone ;)
 
prion said:
Onklen are you using "teleporting weapons" on switch? a wizzy or spectral shard + any good caster sheild should let you teleport a lot faster.

Make sure you use a knife and not a sword because amazon block rates are extremely slow with anything other than throwing spear or dagger.
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I've considered it from time to time but not currently, no. I've been carrying a gull dagger and rhyme for mf while letting my merc get the final blow on specieals/bosses.

Hmm I guess the extra mf from that setup is not worth as much as the much faster speed getting around with a caster setup... Gotta do some studying on fcr breakpoints for amazons. I'll try out your idea with a wizzy. Dont think I'm ready to equip a caster shield as I tend to play too aggresively, so I wont give up my max blocking while teleporting :) Know myself well enough to use safety in HC hehe.

To Master Zap:

Good points there. I very much agree. I've actually been considering a summoner as there seems to be more to do with that build. What I kinda dislike about hammerdins is all you have to do is move in, hold shift while spamming hammers and keep an eye open for FE, cursed, fana, might packs etc. They dont require much control besides being carefull about positioning. (Sorry, dont meen to be rude.) On my javazon I slightly feel the same way. LF on most groups and then move in for CS if I am not cursed with IM. A fishymancer might be more what I am looking for as you have to handle amp, attract, positioning of minions, CE, dim vision on souls etc.

About clearing up 8-player games I dunno if I expressed myself poorly earlier. Even with shako, torch, anni, enigma, and titans I still have to fight hard to clear groups in big games. It is in no way like I breeze through them. Sorry if I gave that impression.

My point is just that I want a character that CAN play in 8 man games. I dont like having to tp to town, because the high lvl hammerdin goes up due to a phone call or vendoring drops. I actually like my blizz sorc I used to get my initial gear from meph. When playing the WSK with her I really have to play safe and be on my toes as she is quite fragile even with 1000 hps and max block. Using one skill as blizz over and over again just also gets boring after a while... Meteorb might be worth considering along with a summon nec but just dont know how they fair in larger games...

Thx for all the input guys and please keep it comming. Also please refrain from insulting each other or asume what we all have tried or not tried :)



 
d00m2k said:
Maybe only a hammerdin can be unkillable, but every other class can be insta-killed. And we're talking about alternatives to hammerdins.

Plus, soloing an 8ppl CS or WSK is not easy, even with a javazon and infinity. My javazon has 1250 HP and infinity, and multiple times I've escaped with under 200 health.

Plus, you're never going to die with 7 other players around you. I think it's safer to play untwinked with 7 friends than twinked alone in an 8ppl game.

Basically, there comes a talent level when you aren't going to die except to a few random events, no matter what your gear.

Besides, everyone knows those who need teammates are just weak and can't do it alone ;)
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Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Maybe your Zon's just a wuss? Mine does just fine in Hell 8 Player CS w/o infinity, though she does have stacked res in Ubers and ~1850 life.

Anyway, back on topic, people have been seeing less and less of me once my Necro/Zon/Sorc got geared to the teeth, nothings a challenge anymore and the only thing that takes time is key running with my IK barb who by comparison is such a wuss even if he is a tank a half.

I have the ability to Enigma up a Hammerdin and a Hammerdin ready to wear it, but I fear outfitting him because it makes the game unfun imho.
Why Self-bo on second copy and first drop baal when Hammerdin can do it? Why use all my characters when one can do everyhting?

I made one last year, loved him and then promptly got bored and left.

Just my two cents, as I actually enjoy non-enigma hammerdins.
-Tai



 
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